Knights of the American West

MacCaulay

Banned
A friend and I did photoshop picture a long time ago of a medieval knight riding across the Great Plains. So we built this timeline around it. Here's the bare bones, just to throw it out there:

circa-1000- Erik the Red lands in Vinland, but a few years later, they are repulsed from Lans aux Meadows by Skraelings. After a few years, the map that was used by later fishermen falls into the hands of some Vikings heading to Constantinople. This map then makes it's way to Rome, where the Catholic church, hearing the by now outlandish tales of this new world, decides to keep it's various warlords and mercenaries busy from pillaging by telling them, more or less...there's gold across the oceans, and land. The Vikings return to Vinland, this time knowing they've got a reason to stay.

That's about what we wrote. Neither of us were that versed in the time period, but that photoshop picture popped up again when I was cleaning out my computer.

So...what does everyone think? Logical? Illogical? Fun, yet impossible?


I leave the floor open. Let 'er rip.
 
I don't think a Norseman settled America is that ASB. You need to have some POD that keeps the Norse from being able to extensively raid mainland Europe, and thus forces them to look for greener pastures. I've proposed a 2nd Charlemagne, who is able to temporary strengthen the Frankish Empire- in turn forcing an early Norse conquest of England and a continued strong push west.

Anyway. If you have horse-riding Europeans on the Great Plains, I don't think you'd see them in heavy armor. The steppes in Eurasia produced a series of horse nomad cultures that traveled light, and used bows. Wars on the steppes were wars of movement, without the kind of massed battles where heavily armored knights were useful. With the rest of North America lightly populated I doubt you'd see a need for European-style knights.

Now, if the Norse find the Meso-American cultures, with large populations, then you might see the European-style knight become useful. Steel armor and weapons, combined with horses, would make quite an impression and could net the first Norse to use them considerable territory and power in Meso-America.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I don't think a Norseman settled America is that ASB. You need to have some POD that keeps the Norse from being able to extensively raid mainland Europe, and thus forces them to look for greener pastures. I've proposed a 2nd Charlemagne, who is able to temporary strengthen the Frankish Empire- in turn forcing an early Norse conquest of England and a continued strong push west.

Anyway. If you have horse-riding Europeans on the Great Plains, I don't think you'd see them in heavy armor. The steppes in Eurasia produced a series of horse nomad cultures that traveled light, and used bows. Wars on the steppes were wars of movement, without the kind of massed battles where heavily armored knights were useful. With the rest of North America lightly populated I doubt you'd see a need for European-style knights.

Now, if the Norse find the Meso-American cultures, with large populations, then you might see the European-style knight become useful. Steel armor and weapons, combined with horses, would make quite an impression and could net the first Norse to use them considerable territory and power in Meso-America.

They landed at Lans aux Meadows in Newfoundland around 1000, led by Erik the Red. They're still digging up houses and such from the village.

I can remember that when I wrote it, I ended up having the name be Amerika because a Papal representative asked some Norse guy what the name of the land was. Then they messed up the translation to the Viking, who thought they were asking who found the land. So he sputtered back "Um...Erik...uh..." And believe me, the writing doesn't get much better.
 
(sorry for the necro) DID NOT realize it...

Anyway the Mongolians on Great Plains thing has been milked too much...
 

MacCaulay

Banned
It's cool. I could probably work up some sort of rough timeline, but I'll be honest and say that there'd probably be a lot of holes in it once it goes beyond the 1100s. But if you guys really want me to write one, I can. I'd be interested to hear some folks who know more about this area of history take a look at it.
It's just that anything that's not American, Canadian, or British history from the 1830s onward I'm pretty rusty on.

As a matter of fact, it's a compliment to have someone dig up old ideas. If only people paid that much attention to my stories on the Writer's Forum...
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I can dig it out of my old tower. I'm on my third computer tower in as many years, and I'm really lazy about getting stuff out of them. But since there actually seems to be interest, I'll try and dig it up. But be warned: with all this build up, you'll be let down. :)
 
Could be a scene from Gunpowder God by H Beam Piper or one of the John F Carr spinoffs. The PoD for these stories is that the Aryans ended up in North America instead of Europe.

*****

On the PoD with the Vikings, the problem with the Vikings is that they island hopped to reach first Greenland and then the American mainland. In some respect each previous colony acts as a base to launch the next one. This gives you reducing manpower along each leg.

In contrast, the European conquest of North America was a straight hop across the Atlantic with a secondary hop by the Spanish from Mexico to the Inca Empire. Much easier to put people into the New World.

The question then is can a Medieval ship such as a cog sail across the Atlantic? If so then the Viking tales of something there could be compared with a pan-European crusade to conver these savage to Christianity along with the Slavs and Muslims that are being shown the error of their beliefs in Eastern Europe, spain and Outremer. It would need payrolling though. Any ideas?
 
I don't think a Norseman settled America is that ASB. You need to have some POD that keeps the Norse from being able to extensively raid mainland Europe, and thus forces them to look for greener pastures. I've proposed a 2nd Charlemagne, who is able to temporary strengthen the Frankish Empire- in turn forcing an early Norse conquest of England and a continued strong push west.

It was the Danes that settled Europe, Norwegians went into the North Atlantic following voyage into the Isles and Ireland. The real push came following Olav the Holy's attempts at christening all Norwegians.
Thus you have to have more Norwegians going into the North Atlantic or figure out how to have the Danes go that way too. And robbed of the West the Danes will most probably concentrate on the Baltic, controlling trade in the area.

On the PoD with the Vikings, the problem with the Vikings is that they island hopped to reach first Greenland and then the American mainland. In some respect each previous colony acts as a base to launch the next one. This gives you reducing manpower along each leg.

Quite. And in the longer timespan reinforcements from Norway dwindled.

The question then is can a Medieval ship such as a cog sail across the Atlantic? If so then the Viking tales of something there could be compared with a pan-European crusade to conver these savage to Christianity along with the Slavs and Muslims that are being shown the error of their beliefs in Eastern Europe, spain and Outremer. It would need payrolling though. Any ideas?

Probably no better than a Viking knarr - sailpowered merchantship. Cog's wouldn't outsize the knarr until well into the 13. century.

The church would follow in the footsteps of the Norwegians it came to Greenland you know, establishing a Bishopric at Gardar! It was kind of natural development. Wherever our souls are we must be! The church would probably finance itself as always by tent.
But having a cross ocean crusade is a bit far fetched.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Could be a scene from Gunpowder God by H Beam Piper or one of the John F Carr spinoffs. The PoD for these stories is that the Aryans ended up in North America instead of Europe.

*****

On the PoD with the Vikings, the problem with the Vikings is that they island hopped to reach first Greenland and then the American mainland. In some respect each previous colony acts as a base to launch the next one. This gives you reducing manpower along each leg.

In contrast, the European conquest of North America was a straight hop across the Atlantic with a secondary hop by the Spanish from Mexico to the Inca Empire. Much easier to put people into the New World.

The question then is can a Medieval ship such as a cog sail across the Atlantic? If so then the Viking tales of something there could be compared with a pan-European crusade to conver these savage to Christianity along with the Slavs and Muslims that are being shown the error of their beliefs in Eastern Europe, spain and Outremer. It would need payrolling though. Any ideas?

I remember that the original plan was that the Catholic Church would end up sending a lot of the noblemen out across the ocean to get them to stop pillaging, more or less telling them that the Pope would want a return on whatever they'd find when they got there.
I'm thinking now that there would be the beginnings of mercantilism MUCH earlier if you've got the Church and possibly some other wealthy backers financing voyages across this northern route that the Vikings know.

And to be honest, the only way I can see the Europeans hanging on in Vinland in the 1000s is by sheer numbers.

If someone knows more about the Vikings and the early Catholic Church, by all means tell me. I'm willing to work with someone to put together something about this.
 
I remember that the original plan was that the Catholic Church would end up sending a lot of the noblemen out across the ocean to get them to stop pillaging, more or less telling them that the Pope would want a return on whatever they'd find when they got there.
I'm thinking now that there would be the beginnings of mercantilism MUCH earlier if you've got the Church and possibly some other wealthy backers financing voyages across this northern route that the Vikings know.
There is not enough return for merchants via the northern route. Beside the climate is starting to deteriorate so ships will start to be lost.

Spices were the original goal for explorers who headed south and west. Without the sort of return from them few are going to bother even at the Pope's bequest.

And to be honest, the only way I can see the Europeans hanging on in Vinland in the 1000s is by sheer numbers.
Numbers aren't enough because the last Greenlanders starved to death. What they needed to do was copy Inuit technology and there was no way that they were going to copy a bunch of skraeiings.
 
Vinland isn't Greenland.

You could the Little Ice Age in Canada, not so much in Greenland.
 
If the Vikings can get down the coast and mind the Meso-American civilizations then I think you could see a large number of Norse and other Europeans possibly interested in coming to the Americas. A few Norse serve as mercenaries for Meso-American states, get a lot of gold, come back with tales, this goes on for a generation and the flow of Norsemen to the "Empires of Gold" gets larger and larger, building up the communities that serve as way stations along the trip from Scandanavia/England to Iceland and down the East Coast of North America.

Aspiring Norse kings needed to build up considerable war-chests in order to gain (regain I suppose) their thrones. For example King Harald Hardrade made his fortune as a mercenary commander in the Byzantine Emperor. There is now a western option which beckons, and many Norse never go back, simply settling in the new land and using their military edge to build new states. The Norse would bring disease with them, and European settlement, but the Norse in Meso-America aren't going to stay loyal to far away kings, and would be able to build considerable states even after Eurasian disease ravages the population.
 
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