KM buys Rivadavia and Moreno

In the mid 30 the Argentine navy showed some interests in selling it's two BB, The ARA Rivadavia and Moreno. The ships had been given an upgrade in the US in the late 20s, an in OTL US pressure and lack of takers killed the idea. The BB then had a leisurely life until broken up in the 50s.
Let's say that the KM bought the ships in 1935 as an inexpensive quick way to get back into the BB business. We noe have two lines of thought that can be followed from the german side:
1. Keep the ships more or less in their as bought state, with minimal upgrades (radar, AA, etc) this will limit their use to North Sea Operations, their lack of speed making them unsuited for breakout into the Atlantic.
This could have some interesting implications for the Norway operations, and force the RN to use more heavy units later to cover the Russia bound convoys.
2. Upgrade the ships along the lines of the Italian Cavour rebuilt. This requires more money, but if we go the "remove midships turrets/remove casemated guns/instal new machinery/new secondary and AA batteries/reshape the bow/upgrade the heavy guns" we could end up, in 1940, with the KM having four rather than 2 heavy units both for Norway and for Atlantic ops.
Cost would be limited for the first option, rather larger for the second, but apart from the initial buy, that required some hard currency, we're still within Nazieconomics limits.

ship-rivadavia.jpg
 
Why would the KM buy old ships - they wanted to build new ones. It would have cost not much more to build a modern ship instead of upgrading an old one (consideering that the upgraded ones probably were inferior to new ones)
 
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The result is that British pull their not inconsiderable investments from Argentina and start a full scale trade war (i.e. no more beef etc) unless the sale to the KM is stopped. Argentine economy collapses and a change to a more 'agreeable' government occurs fairly shortly.
 
A quick bit of reading suggests the plan to sell the ships occurred during their construction in 1913, I don't see anything suggesting such a sale was considered in the 30's.

Leaving that aside Germany had limited yard space and only so many resources to commit to the Kriegsmarine. If these ships were upgraded it would come at the expense of some other program, which one do you envision being delayed or scaled back?

Also the RN had fifteen operational battleships and battlecruisers in 1939 plus five new King George V battleships under construction and seven aircraft carriers in operation. Of course if the Kriegsmarine acquired two additional battleships in 1935 Britain would probably have responded by accelerating its own fleet construction/refitting. How many more ships do you think the British would commision by 1940 in response to the increased threat?
 
sales, consequences, use

A quick bit of reading suggests the plan to sell the ships occurred during their construction in 1913, I don't see anything suggesting such a sale was considered in the 30's.

Leaving that aside Germany had limited yard space and only so many resources to commit to the Kriegsmarine. If these ships were upgraded it would come at the expense of some other program, which one do you envision being delayed or scaled back?

Also the RN had fifteen operational battleships and battlecruisers in 1939 plus five new King George V battleships under construction and seven aircraft carriers in operation. Of course if the Kriegsmarine acquired two additional battleships in 1935 Britain would probably have responded by accelerating its own fleet construction/refitting. How many more ships do you think the British would commision by 1940 in response to the increased threat?

I got the information on the possibility of selling the ships in the 30s from a french magazine article on the ships. (LOS, issue 1) I don't have it here so I'll check later.
By the mid 30 the UK was open to a limited build up of the KM strengh. The aquisition of two 12'' BB would not be seen as an imediate threat. They would be presented as usable for mostly Baltic ops, and there would be no perceived need for sanctions on Argentina nor for an accelerated RN building program. (we're not talking Yamato style game changers here)
Buying ships would be a quick way to give the German fleet a BB division. They ships would be seen a limited, rather benign force. Their potencial wartime use would only come to light once an invasion of Norway was contemplated. Their upgrade would raise a few doubts, but since the RN was OK with the germans building 30 000 Light BB/BC by then two more ship with a similar potencial would be acceptd, specially if their incresed speed was masked during rebuilding and trials.
 
Well, I guess the KM could have bought them to replace Schleswig Holstein and Schlesien who people forget were on the active list in the 1930s.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
A quick bit of reading suggests the plan to sell the ships occurred during their construction in 1913, I don't see anything suggesting such a sale was considered in the 30's.

Leaving that aside Germany had limited yard space and only so many resources to commit to the Kriegsmarine. If these ships were upgraded it would come at the expense of some other program, which one do you envision being delayed or scaled.

On the first point, the source I had in fact gave no timeframe for the planned sale. Neither jane's nor conways mention sales plans so I must have "placed it" to suit my WI.
Cancelling Graf Zeppelin gives two years of free dry dock time. A lot of the upgrade did not require dry-docking, so let's say one year per ship in dry dock. Malaya took two year for the whole job, and QE and Warspite three for their more extensive rebuilt. I don't know how much work was done in dry dock and how much afloat.
 
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On the first point, the source I had in fact gave no timeframe for the planned sale. Neither jane's nor conways mention sales plans so I must have "placed it" to suit my WI.
Cancelling Graf Zeppelin gives two years of free dry dock time. A lot of the upgrade did not require dry-docking, so let's say one year per ship in dry dock. Malaya took two year for the whole job, and QE and Warspite three for their more extensive rebuilt. I don't know how much work was done in dry dock and how much afloat.


Actually I think Richter Von Manthofen and Lord Brisbane have provided excellent reasons why this sale wouldn't happen but even if it did given how the Graf Zeppelin project carried on even in the middle of WWII I really can't see the Kriegsmarine scrapping it for a couple of old battleships in the mid 30's.
 
Well, I guess the KM could have bought them to replace Schleswig Holstein and Schlesien who people forget were on the active list in the 1930s.

It would have been a lot of good money spent on bad battleships - at least in regards to the Kriegsmarine. The Rivadavia and Moreno have different engines and, more importantly, different guns and shells, that the KM would have to now invest in. Better to keep the Schleswig Holstein and Schlesien and invest in new ships. The Italians never got their money's worth for the reconstructed WWI battleships they had.
 
Political cost, good use gains

It would have been a lot of good money spent on bad battleships - at least in regards to the Kriegsmarine. The Rivadavia and Moreno have different engines and, more importantly, different guns and shells, that the KM would have to now invest in. Better to keep the Schleswig Holstein and Schlesien and invest in new ships. The Italians never got their money's worth for the reconstructed WWI battleships they had.

The KM started the war with two Dreadnoughts. Building faster and bigger would have been a huge political gamble. Buying used ships, that could be presented as having a more defensive nature, would have lower political costs.
The Italians didn't get a good return but that was not because they had bad ships. They just used them poorly. There was no other way Italy would have a six BB fleet in 1941, and the final program of 4 Litorios plus the four rebuilds would have given them the potencial to fight for Med domination.
The success of the rebuilt QE class vessels and the good use the USN got out of their rebuilds validates the concept.
The trouble would be finding ships to buy. Given the volatility of South Americans politics, the ABC navies would have been the most likely seller.
The Chilean ship was the best and Latorre did have a mutiny in 1931 that might have made the government think it was more trouble than it was worth.
But that would give just one ship. Her guns are probably compatible with Japanese 14'' ammo for the Kongos, and the Germans could buy a few shiploads and stock them for war, along with Chilean stocks.
 
Probably not, but

Elswick vs Vickers designs. Probably not compatible, but a similar gun was built for Yamashiro and used as a railway gun in France. Both 14'' have nearly identical and excellent performance. But still, only one ship...
 
kmt

When you mentioned the KM buying the Rivvadavia and other ship, my first thought was the Kuomingtang.
 
When you mentioned the KM buying the Rivvadavia and other ship, my first thought was the Kuomingtang.

That would make more sense but only if the Chinese had the money and only paid scrap value for them. Maybe they could buy the Langley as an aircraft ferry at the same time.
 
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