Klein Venedig

When? And what "Germans"?

Other than that, yeah, interesting divergences from that point, and maybe more colonial wars.
 
i meant the Prussians in their first attempt. Mighty interesting with a Germanophone Central America.
 
Well, for one they'd have to do it with consent from Spain, while at a later date they might need backing from some larger colonizer.

It still seems an ephemeral colonization effort, though, and Germany wasn't experiencing a surfeit of population due to the 30YW and all that...until the 18th century at least.
 
i meant the Prussians in their first attempt. Mighty interesting with a Germanophone Central America.
The Prussians did not try to colonize Klein Venedig. Klein Venedig was a group of territorial rights Charles V(as King of Spain) granted to two Ausburg Banking Families, with the Welser Family eventually assuming sole control. The colony wasn't really even ever established, they were basically just on a treasure hunt for gold, and by Charles V's death they had been stripped of their rights to the colony.
 
A few issues here regarding Kleinvenedig:

- the first colonization attempt/involvement in the New World by German banking families in cooperation with the Spanish. However, the banking families appeared to have followed their own agenda, but ultimately failed.

- the above described event had nothing to do with Prussia (this was long before Prussia/Brandenburg's rise to power), and at that time the German lands weren't depopulated from the Thirty Years War - this was a century before the Thirty Years War! :rolleyes:

Anyways, the POD is very interesting, I've always been interested into making more out of it...
 
Spain was very overprotective of its monopoly rights in its colonies. I think you're going to see Kleinvenedig overrun and seized within a few decades whatever happens really, no matter how successful at first.
 
Spain was very overprotective of its monopoly rights in its colonies. I think you're going to see Kleinvenedig overrun and seized within a few decades whatever happens really, no matter how successful at first.

Well, the Welsers were also searching for the legendary "El Dorado", if they had found the Inca first (entirely possible if Ambrosius Ehringer and Nicolaus Federmann are a tad more lucky), then the Inca gold might have ended up in the hands of the Welsers.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, the Welsers were also searching for the legendary "El Dorado", if they had found the Inca first (entirely possible if Ambrosius Ehringer and Nicolaus Federmann are a tad more lucky), then the Inca gold might have ended up in the hands of the Welsers.

They couldnt hve held it. Even if they usurp the Inca Empires power (which, given the Inca States highly centralised nature is entirely possible), it was wrecked so much by plagues, the Spanish would simply conquer it from the Welsers...
 
Quite so. The Welsers actually succeeding in America would be the colony's death sentence. If the Spaniards saw signs of success or prosperity from the colony, post Charles V's reign, they would take steps immediately, and I mean immediately, to seize it. Ironically the best way for the Welsers to hold that land would be for it to be a spectacular failure which they just refused to give up on, as the Spanish would feel less interest in taking it. But you're still going to have them get sick of and xenophobic about another country in the Americas eventually, and the colony's seizure is inevitable and unavoidable.
 
The problem the Welsers had was that they were nosing around everywhere and not paying their cut to the Spanish. If they pay up and look loyal (noncompetitive, anyway), the Spanish have no reason to invade. I'm sure international politics will eventually land the colony in hot water.


Just to tag a stupid idea on here, i wonder if there's any way for Courland to end up with Klein Venedig.


Well, the Welsers were also searching for the legendary "El Dorado", if they had found the Inca first (entirely possible if Ambrosius Ehringer and Nicolaus Federmann are a tad more lucky), then the Inca gold might have ended up in the hands of the Welsers.
They couldnt hve held it. Even if they usurp the Inca Empires power (which, given the Inca States highly centralised nature is entirely possible), it was wrecked so much by plagues, the Spanish would simply conquer it from the Welsers...
But how much gold could they have gotten out first?
 
The problem the Welsers had was that they were nosing around everywhere and not paying their cut to the Spanish. If they pay up and look loyal (noncompetitive, anyway), the Spanish have no reason to invade.

I'll try not to stress this point anymore, as I've probably said it enough times already, but the Spanish would believe that they have every right to invade. Simply put, they held onto the terms of the Treaty of Tordesillas to the dying end. That treaty gave them all colonial land between two longitudinal lines (I can't remember where they are exactly but it essentially gave them full control over all of North America and most of South America) and it gave them the right to own all trade monopolies there. The Spanish trade policy was somewhat ultra-conservative and increasingly behind the times, in that they didn't recognise any advantage to letting other countries get a share of the pie in exchange for local areas profiting more, but only believed that if Spaniards did 100% of the trading, then they couldn't possibly lose money. To this end, they refused to give up any trading rights at all except through the most strenuously-negotiated measures (and by this I mean as a result of colonial war, by which England acquired petty logging rights in one tiny area of Central America and which it kept for about 5 years before being evicted from the area again. Where they did give up trade rights, generally they revoked them again within years. With this mindset, the Spanish didn't accept money from tariffs, annual payments, "paying their cut" etc as a fair bargain. They just saw that the area should be rightfully theirs and would you please hand it over before we shoot you? The Spanish viewpoint was simply that the Pope had given them North America, and they were free to do with it as they pleased. And they were pleased not to have anyone else in their territory.
 
All that makes good sense, but you're forgetting one huge factor. The Spanish granted Venezuela to the Welsers as payment on a loan, they weren't just setting up shop without permission. If the Spanish take it back with no reason, they've got no chance of getting more loans in future. That stuff wasn't as important back then, but it's still enough to wreck a country. So they'll take any excuse to get the land back, if it can be done with an appearance of legality. Note that OTL, the land was reclaimed through lawsuit and not conquest.

Further, AFAIK Bartholomeus Welser was granted Spanish nobility, so Venezuela was never technically not Spanish. Not that everyone would see it that way, but it was definitely not of any other nationality, not Bavarian and certainly not German or Prussian.

I'll try not to stress this point anymore, as I've probably said it enough times already, but the Spanish would believe that they have every right to invade. Simply put, they held onto the terms of the Treaty of Tordesillas to the dying end. That treaty gave them all colonial land between two longitudinal lines (I can't remember where they are exactly but it essentially gave them full control over all of North America and most of South America) and it gave them the right to own all trade monopolies there. The Spanish trade policy was somewhat ultra-conservative and increasingly behind the times, in that they didn't recognise any advantage to letting other countries get a share of the pie in exchange for local areas profiting more, but only believed that if Spaniards did 100% of the trading, then they couldn't possibly lose money. To this end, they refused to give up any trading rights at all except through the most strenuously-negotiated measures (and by this I mean as a result of colonial war, by which England acquired petty logging rights in one tiny area of Central America and which it kept for about 5 years before being evicted from the area again. Where they did give up trade rights, generally they revoked them again within years. With this mindset, the Spanish didn't accept money from tariffs, annual payments, "paying their cut" etc as a fair bargain. They just saw that the area should be rightfully theirs and would you please hand it over before we shoot you? The Spanish viewpoint was simply that the Pope had given them North America, and they were free to do with it as they pleased. And they were pleased not to have anyone else in their territory.
 

Susano

Banned
Thats not true. The Spanish did militarily create faits accompli, before they began to try to cover it legally up. And the colony was surely seen in a way as German - at least the Welsers used German settlers (who were expelled again by the Spanish).
 
Doing a little (just a little) research into Kleinvenedig it would seem that the Welsers were appointing German governors to govern in lieu of the Spanish anyway, and it appears that their first batch of settlers were Spanish too, though I still think the Spaniards would still want a way to evict them.
 
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