Kiwi Lennon and the Aborted Beatles

[Asharella]

well...

I liked reading the Lennon as jazz musician idea, but I think there's a distinct possibility that Lennon won't really be involved in music in any real way at all. If you want this version of John Lennon to be famous, why not make him a comedian/poet of some type? It's just as likely in my opinion as him leading band.

Several things lay behind my ideas in my musings. The first was that Lennon would still be exposed to music in New Zealand since his dad was so into show business of any form. In OTL time it was the music surging in Liverpool that influenced him and he couldn't resist getting into it. I figured if he is in Auckland and being exposed to music there he'd also be influenced and couldn't resist getting into it ITTL.

The second thing was that I figured that Lennon would long so much for Julia that he'd get back to Liverpool. It seemed to me obvious that eventually he'd head back. Going to the art college seemed the logical time, which puts him right in the middle of the growing skiffle/rock scene as an outsider.

The third thing was that from my own personal research I had concluded that despite from a retrospective looking back it is so obviously that the Quarrymen was Lennon's thing, that when it started it wasn't clear that was the case. Lennon was the vocalist and the dreamer, but Shotton and Griffins were just as much into the band. They were a circle of friends in OTL and the entire circle made the band. I figured the same thing would happen if the circle didn't have Lennon in it. Without Lennon their initial enthusiasm would have faded and the band would have been like so many bands so many of us had as kids... unless someone else as creative and powerful as Lennon came along. Well, in OTL McCartney came along when the band was just forming. It made perfect sense to me that McCartney would come along ITTL and get recruited the same way he was in OTL, in both cases by Shotton. The result is that there would be still be a Quarrymen ITTL just one without Lennon.

Thus I ended up with a Lennon-less Quarrymen at the same time I had a Quarrymen-less Lennon returning to Liverpool. I couldn't resist what would have happened if that Lennon was in the audience when McCartney messed up his Raunchy solo instead on stage next to him.

All this alt history really is just making stuff up. I can't prove my ideas are more valid than yours because they aren't. But I'm having fun making this stuff up. But if you like I could take it to a different thread? I didn't intend to hijack your thread, I just had some ideas at first about the Quarrymen still forming and wanted to share them and got carried away.

 

[Glass Onion]

Don't worry I liked your idea, and this isn't my thread. My only issue is that from everything I've read Lennon hated Jazz, and he tended to be more a lyrical guy and I'm not sure how that would work with a jazz background as jazz as I understand is more instrumental than rock is. If you can figure it out it's really interesting. Also ironic because Paul McCartney had something of a jazz background via his father

The Lennon as a comedian is just my idea of where things might end up. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was swatting down your idea.

 

[Asharella]

Don't worry I liked your idea, and this isn't my thread. My only issue is that from everything I've read Lennon hated Jazz, and he tended to be more a lyrical guy and I'm not sure how that would work with a jazz background as jazz as I understand is more instrumental than rock is. If you can figure it out it's really interesting. Also ironic because Paul McCartney had something of a jazz background via his father

The Lennon as a comedian is just my idea of where things might end up. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was swatting down your idea.

That's okay. I just was sensitive that I might have over stepped the bounds with all my posts on my ideas.

 

[Asharella]

Sgt. Pepper 1963

Clockwise from top left: Les Chadwick, Paul McCartney, Pete Best and George Harrison.

 

[Asharella]

The Moondogs 1963

Richard Starkey, John Lennon, Klaus Voorman

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Great ideas Asharella. I enjoyed reading this. I can see a beatnik version of Lennon being jazz influenced under the right conditions, but I think he'd be looking at lyrical expression of some sort early on as Glass Onion pointed out. A fun read in any case. Are the Moondogs bigger than Jesus Christ then? McCartney without the bass is an interesting departure on its own.
Hope I'm not preempting you on this but what if for fun the Beatles were formed in 1970 as a supergroup at the same time our beatles split up. The 1970s just wouldn't be the 70s without the Beatles.
What about Lennon as working class hero? Union leader. Perhaps he becomes a teacher and an active member of the NUT rising in the ranks and becoming promiment in the 1970's and 80's as a class warrior.
Sorry, but I can't resist plugging my own Beatles influenced songwriting here:
www.reverbnation.com/BillyPryce

 

[Asharella]

okay, I guess I'll do more

The Moondogs got studio time first. Right after returning from Berlin in May 1962 they were in the studio working with Tony Meehan on Wednesday the 23rd. Meehan wanted them to switch over to pop music and presented them a number of piano based standards from his catalog.

Lennon was agreeable as long as they also got to do a few of the jazz pieces from his favorite influences and some of his bluesy/rock/jazz fusion originals. The Moondogs first single was released on August 31 with Lennon's own slow, bluesy "Please, Please Me" that included his jazzy piano solo. The song charted and moved up slowly until it reach number 19 on September 28 and started moving back down the charts, that is until Sgt. Pepper's first release and Epstein's marketing of the two bands as the rivals from Liverpool.

Sgt. Pepper went into the studio with George Martin on Wednesday, June 6. They recorded McCartney's original rock pop song "Love Me Do" and covered Mitch Murray's "How Do You Do It"" Martin felt the recording of "Love Me Do" wasn't up to standards and asked them to do it again on Tuesday, September 4. He'd also decided to give "How Do You Do It?" to his other Liverpool band, Gerry and the Pacemakers. Finally they did one more recording a week later on the 11th, this time with Andy White, a studio musician, playing drums on Martin's insistence and Best only playing tambourine.

It was decided that Best's version on the 4th was just as good as White's, so that was the one that was released on October 5. It quickly moved up the charts to number 17 as Epstein hyped the Liverpool sound and the rivalry of Sgt. Pepper with the Moondogs. As "Love Me Do" moved up the charts "Please, Please Me" also began to move back up until it reached number 8, breaking into the top ten.

Sgt. Pepper and The Moondogs were now successful recording artists with verifiable hits. But they weren't stars yet. That was to change in early 1963.

First Sgt. Pepper finished up an album's worth of material including the cover of the Isley's Brother's "Twist and Shout" which was released as the first single. It sky rocketed to number one, remaining there until it was replaced by what had started off as a joke by Lennon, the rock version of "Please, Please Me."

Both bands performed at a Battle of the Bands in Liverpool after the release of both bands first 45s in early 1963 at the Cavern Club, and event where Sgt. Pepper played first, Gerry and the Pacemakers played next, and then The Moondogs played last. Lennon stepped out from behind his piano and picked up the electric guitar he played on a few slower blues songs and said, "Well, you all heard the new single from me and the boys. I thought you might have wondered what it would have sounded like if Babyface and the Quarrymen, excuse me, Sgt. Pepper, did it. So I hopes you enjoys this."

Then The Moondogs did a speeded up rock version of the tune. The place went wild. The truth was that the idea of a faster version originated with George Martin who had mentioned to Harrison that "Please, Please Me" was a great tune but it didn't have the energy it needed. "Now if you boys had it and did it as a faster rock 'n roll song it might have gotten to number one."

Harrison told Starkey and Starkey passed it on to Lennon. Lennon always claimed it was a joke at first, but Starkey claimed in 1964 that Lennon was only using the joke explanation as cover if the idea bombed.

By early 1963 The Moondogs were back in the studio recording their first album including the rock version of "Please, Please Me" and when the faster version was released as a single it went straight to number one, knocking off "Twist and Shout." It stayed there until April when the Pacemakers "How Do You Do It" was released and eventually took it's place. By the Summer of 1963 all three Liverpool bands had number one songs and were stars. It was time for a National Tour.

That's when stardom for two of those bands went into something more, into what came to be called "The Craze" and "Rivalmania."

 

[Asharella]

Plastic Ono?

Great ideas Asharella. I enjoyed reading this. I can see a beatnik version of Lennon being jazz influenced under the right conditions, but I think he'd be looking at lyrical expression of some sort early on as Glass Onion pointed out. A fun read in any case. Are the Moondogs bigger than Jesus Christ then? McCartney without the bass is an interesting departure on its own.
Hope I'm not preempting you on this but what if for fun the Beatles were formed in 1970 as a supergroup at the same time our beatles split up. The 1970s just wouldn't be the 70s without the Beatles.
What about Lennon as working class hero? Union leader. Perhaps he becomes a teacher and an active member of the NUT rising in the ranks and becoming promiment in the 1970's and 80's as a class warrior.
Sorry, but I can't resist plugging my own Beatles influenced songwriting here:
www.reverbnation.com/BillyPryce

I like the idea of a super band named the Beatles finally forming. But I've got to keep The Moondogs together until they do the ITTL version of Plastic Ono Band in 1970 since it was the exact same line up in OTL. Of course John can't sing, "Father you left me but I never left you. I needed you, you didn't need me," like he did in OTL. I suppose he'll sing, "Father you never left me but I left you, you needed me but I didn't need you."

Oh, don't worry, McCartney will end up playing bass. He won't be satisfied with Chad's work before long and take over in the studio. ITTL McCartney is even more the prima dona than in OTL because he never went through a cooperative phase with Lennon before they became rivals.

I'm imaging some strange things happening here. The line ups of the bands aren't in their final forms yet.

 

[Asharella]

The two headed monster

Both bands had done small tours of the country earlier in the year. But it was the big tour in May-June that had both of them that started the Craze.

Epstein was convinced that putting both bands on the same stage was the key. It wasn't enough for him that they take turns like in a normal show. He wanted both bands on stage at the same time, The Moondogs at one end and Sgt. Pepper at the other. They'd take turns on songs and swap "banging on each other." Sometimes one band would start a song and then the other would start theirs and the first band would quit. None of this was real, it was all staged.

At first the boys were not supposed to be the headliners, other acts like Tommy Roe, Roy Orbison or Chris Montez from the US were supposed to be the headliners after the boys battled it out. It became clear quite fast that may be the official case, but the fans were there for the Rivals.

The kids started screaming during the songs. Some kids were Moondoggies and others were Pepperites and some in love with both bands.

Lennon always referred to McCartney as Babyface and McCartney returned in kind with Kiwi.

It was one night in Manchester that Pete Best after the show went joy riding with some fans on their scooters and got in a minor accident. He wasn't seriously hurt, but his leg was broken and he couldn't drum. Epstein's solution was for Starkey to fill in for him. The next night there was only one drum set on stage set up between the two bands. Best never played with Sgt. Pepper again after that night. The two bands shared the same drummer.

Starkey was all for it, as was Harrison. They had been jamming together in private ever since their Hamburg friendship started, at times they'd pull in Chad or Klaus, they never mentioned this to either Lennon or McCartney. Harrison never got on with Best and was fine with him being out of the band. McCartney was against it until he played with Starkey instead of Best.

"That first night," McCartney explained to Loder in the 1986 interview in Rolling Stone, "Richie played with Pepper he'd never practiced with us, just listened to our playing on stage next to us. He nailed it. I mean it was like he understood everything in a way poor old Pete never did. I intended at first to just finish out the tour with Richie replacing Pete, after all he was already on stage, you know? It was Brian that convinced me it was okay to make the switch. We just had to convince Lennon it was okay. He had only one condition. He wanted to use George sometimes in the studio. I agreed as long as I got him whenever I needed him."

John explained it on David Letterman's Late Show in 2006. "With the faster version of "Please, Please Me" I decided I wanted more guitar, and I wasn't yet that good at it. The truth is that it was George that gave me lessons. Back in Hamburg. It was Richie's idea. Don't tell Babyface, he still doesn't know about that."

All of this would have never happened if they hadn't been doing the marketing of the band as The Rivals. By keeping The Rivals together for tours and putting them on stage at the same time Epstein set them up to collaborate. By the times the Rivals went to America, Harrison and Starkey were in both bands.

The Craze went into high gear with Sgt. Pepper's "She Loves You" and The Moondogs "It Won't Be Long" both released in later 1963. When The Rivals returned from touring Sweden in October thousands of fans met them at Heathrow Airport even though it was raining heavily. It wasn't just the screaming fans, the press were there too.

When the next albums, "With The Moondogs" and "All My Loving" were released on the same date in November they both went straight to number one and two, switching positions it seemed every week.

But the bands' singles hadn't made a dent in America. Both Martin and Meehan couldn't figure out why their bands were the top in the U.K. and couldn't break out in the U.S.

Martin was frustrated that the EMI company in the U.S., Capital wouldn't release Sgt. Pepper's material. Meehan's company Decca also was unwilling to release The Moondogs material in the U.S.

VeeJay Records in the U.S. took advantage of this situation and got the rights to both bands. Chopping up material from "Please, Please Me" and "Twist and Shout" they released one LP called "Introducing... The Rivals" in January of 1964. It had "Love Me Do," the fast "Please, Please Me" and "Twist and Shout" on it. But the American public wasn't ready yet for The Rivals. But Lennon and McCartney were on the same record, even though they never collaborated.

 

[Asharella]

Denny Laine

Denny Laine singing with Sgt. Pepper on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1964.

 

[Asharella]

Chad out Denny in

What was a surprise to the fans, that Les Chadwick left Sgt. Pepper and joined Gerry and the Pacemakers in early 1964 was not a surprise to anyone who worked with Sgt. Pepper.

They new that Chad hadn't actually contributed to any of the studio work since "Twist and Shout." McCartney realized as soon as they used multi track recording when they returned to the studio after the "Twist and Shout" sessions to work on the single, "From Me to You," that he could play guitar and bass. He'd been unhappy with Chad's work for a while and wanted real bass on the song instead of Chad's guitar with the bass settings exaggerated. He convinced, some would say he forced, Chad to play bass instead. Later McCartney decided Chad's work wasn't good enough and replaced it with his own.

From then on the studio bass in Sgt. Pepper was McCartney's work and Chad, still playing his guitar with the exaggerated bass setting, was only heard on stage. Chad was a friendly, easy going fellow always with a smile on his face and happy to fade into the background behind a star. But after he wasn't even invited to the studio for the recording sessions for "It Won't Be Long" he started looking for other opportunities.

Chad had become close friends with the three men in Gerry and the Pacemakers, who didn't have a bass in their line up. Their keyboardist played a rhodes piano bass with his left hand to provide the bass sound. Gerry Marsden, the Gerry in the Pacemakers, invited Chad to come play bass with his band both on stage and in the studio. Chad jumped at the chance.

McCartney decided he'd play bass on stage, he felt a natural affinity with it, but he needed someone who could join him who'd be able to play both guitar or bass, could sing, something Chad had never done, and was a collaborator who he could work with. He found it in Denny Laine, who had his own band, Denny and the Diplomats, but was eager to leave them to join Sgt. Pepper, especially since McCartney assured him he could sing lead on some songs.

In Laine, McCartney found a junior partner who stayed loyal to him not only throughout the sixties, but into the eighties. The final line up of Sgt. Pepper was in place: Richie Starkey on drums, George Harrison on lead guitar, back up vocals and some times lead vocals, Denny Laine on either guitar or bass, back up vocals and some times lead vocals, and Paul Babyface McCartney on every instrument and vocals.

 

[Asharella]

The irony of it all

John William McCormick

America was in a shambles in 1964 still recovering from the double murders of President John F. Kenney in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963 and only a day later of new President Lyndon B. Johnson at his home in Washington, D.C.

Grandfatherly new President and former Speaker of the House John William McCormick tried to comfort the nation while at the same time not over reach, being the first President not elected to either the presidency or the vice presidency.

The nation was terrorized. The official story was that Oswald, JFK's assassin had an accomplice in secret service agent Gerald Blaine who'd shot LBJ outside his own house and moments later was gunned down by other agents. But there were rumors that couldn't be stopped that it had been a coup by the military or a Russian attempt to take over the country. Each day a new rumor spread that was more frightening then the rest.

Troops were everywhere and fear of a war with Russia was as intense as during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but then it had been a crisis that got over after a few weeks. This scare went on and on.

The country went in days from a strong government, a young energetic President and being full of hope, vigor, enthusiasm and delight in civic life to one that had a doubtful government, an old, weak president and being full of cynicism, fear and wanting to escape all responsibility.

This was the America ready and willing for the invasion from Britain and the band that was ready to change everything was the Rolling Stones. They were loud, cynical, sexy and had a touch of danger. The youth of America went crazy.

The Stones had appeared on the scene in England after the two rival bands of Sgt. Pepper and The Moondogs were already zooming to number ones and becoming stars. The Stones' singles were successful, but not at the same level as The Rivals. Plus their performances didn't have the screaming or the mania of Rivalmania.

Thus no one expected that the band that would break in the United States would be this second tier band from South London, but it was. American DJs started playing the Stones' English singles in December. By January official American releases of "Stoned" were selling like crazy in American stores. Ed Sullivan booked them to appear on his show. On February 7th of 1964 the Rolling Stones arrived in the United States to screaming fans and the press at JFK Airport. They'd left Heathrow as just another group of young men with no one cheering. They arrived in America as the biggest stars of the nation.

Suddenly British music was all Americans wanted. Even bands that had never been successful at all in the U.K. could get on Sullivan and get recording contracts in the U.S. The closest competitors to the popularity of the Rolling Stones were the Animals, the Pretty Things and the Yardbirds. Further down in the pack were bands like the Dave Clark Five, Gerry and the Pacemakers, Dusty Springfield, Chad and Jeremy, Peter and Gordon, and Herman's Hermits.

Among the also rans were The Moondogs and Sgt. Pepper. They got recording contracts in the U.S. Their singles got played in the U.S. They even had a joint tour, although they didn't go on stage at the same time. They even both played Sullivan, albeit different nights. There was even the expected screaming.

But they were not the biggies. They weren't very famous outside those who paid attention to music. They were just another one of those other British Bands the kids were all into. They never even had a top twenty record. On their tour the Dave Clark Five were the headliners.

Yet back in England and Europe they were the biggest things ever imagined. No one involved with them could figure out what was wrong, what was missing.

At home the Rolling Stones had also become big, how could the biggest band in the British Invasion not become big? But not as big as The Moondogs and Sgt. Pepper were. Why couldn't the Rivals become in America what they were in England and Europe? It couldn't be because they weren't given the chance; the Stones had given them that. No one understood.

 

[Asharella]

Some commentary outside of the Time Line

Here's my ideas about what was going on.

I've tried to divide up the Lennon/McCartney songs by the main composer. I figure that despite their claims that they were joint ventures, as a song writer who's worked with others in writing a song, I know that usually one person dominates over the other. So I've figure that "She Loves You," basically a Paul song, would still exist without Lennon as would "It Won't Be Long," basically a John song. Of course I'm not assuming that the songs ITTL are the same songs as in OTL.

What doesn't exist ITTL is the first real enormous hit of the Beatles and the song that made them stars in the US, "I Want To Hold Your Hand." This song I'm convinced was that true collaboration of both men and I can't imagine it existing at all without them working together.

With John at Decca I'm assuming the first bluesy slow version of "Please, Please Me" gets made, although I'm making it have a bit of jazz piano in the middle. I decided it's still a great song and would be a hit, but it would take a while and not move up until the top ten until the hype from the rivalry. I figured that Martin's problem with it being too slow and low energy would get to Lennon eventually and he'd would have to experiment. Thus his first big hit is a remake of the tune in a style pretty similar to what happened in OTL.

I've already remarked that I think that without a phase of working with Lennon that McCartney would be more of a prima dona. His experience with Wings in OTL showed he had trouble keeping sidemen who'd quit due to his demands or who'd he'd let go because they weren't shaping up to his standards. His antics of redoing Chad's work in the studio is similar to stuff he did in the Beatles with both George and Ringo. If he did it with them in OTL I figured he do it earlier with Chad ITTL. With Gerry and the Pacemakers being almost as big as the other two bands I figured the natural place for Chad to end up was in the same band he was in OTL.

I couldn't resist replacing him with Denny Laine. He did leave the Diplomats in 1964 in OTL and went to the Moody Blues. But in TTL with Paul needing a replacement it seemed like he'd recruit Denny then instead of in 1971. I'm seeing this lack of Laine being in the Moody Blues throwing them off completely and butterflying out their later post Denny success. They weren't together by then.

One thing I think is that a butterfly from something small in one set of lives could end up having a big impact in something else that appears totally unrelated. Although Alf taking John to New Zealand turns out to be big since it was John Lennon whose life is different, in the life of the United States this had no impact until there is no Beatles Invasion in 1964. But I'm butterflying that Alf living a different life ends up changing timing of enough things so that Gerald Blaine actually does shoot LBJ instead of almost shooting him. I'm also playing a pet theory of mine that butterflies end up circling back on themselves.

The result is an America even more distraught than in OTL. The country ITTL is more cynical then and the British Invasion is harder, rougher and badder. I figure the Pretty Things actually are part of it and that its the Stones who lead it. There were no Beatles to invade America but the butterflies with synchronicity set up a country that needed the Stones more anyway.

Of course the big thing is why the Rival Bands can't succeed in the U.S. like they do in Europe. Well no one ITTL can figure it out. But I think we can. Lennon and McCartney aren't working together. The whole British Rivalmania happened with them both on stage. They don't do that in the U.S.

Oh, my idea that Harrison and Starkey ITTL would be buds is based on the fact that in OTL they became buds the same way while in Hamburg in different bands. It was mainly Harrison in OTL who wanted to replace Best with Starr. I figure ITTL their mutual respect could lead both ways.

So now I've ended up with the Moondogs being the Beatles without Paul and with Klaus Voorman, a later replacement for Paul in John's work in OTL AND Sgt. Pepper being the Beatles without John and with Denny Laine, a later replacement for John in Paul's work in OTL. Maybe it's corny. But I couldn't resist and it was fun.

But neither the Moondogs nor Sgt. Pepper are the Beatles and they just don't have the same impact on America as the Beatles. Well, for now. Let's see what happens.

 

[Asharella]

and now may I introduce to you the director you've know all these years

Richard Lester was an innovative film maker and wanted to capture the excitement of Rivalmania and the music of the Moondogs and Sgt. Pepper. This was intended as a British film for a British audience, so the lack of fervor for the Rivals in the U.S. was irrelevant.

"A Hard Day's Night," which was named after a phrase used by Starkey, was a mockumentary about the Rival bands traveling on the same train to London for a joint appearance on a television show and where they stay in the same hotel. The film tended to focus on the leaders of the two bands and the shared members, so Laine and Voorman didn't have any solo scenes like Harrison's time with a marketing executive or Starkey's escape to roam the city on his own.

The film wasn't named until after the filming had been done. Lester suggested they use Starkey's phrase. Lennon agreed and said, "I've got an idea for a song."

McCartney said, "Hey, wait a minute, now. We've divided up the songs between us. That gives you the extra song and it's the title song."

Lennon said, "So, help me with it and we'll credit it to both of us."

Although the title song was mainly a Lennon song, McCartney worked with him enough for it be credited to both of them.

When "A Hard Day's Night" was released in the United States on August 11, 1964 everyone expected it would have the same impact that the Rivals had been having in America so far. It would get some attention and sell some records but not change the status of the two bands as also rans in the British Invasion.

Instead the film was a smash. Critics loved it because of Lester's use of cinéma vérité style and New Wave film techniques like jump shots. The single "Hard Day's Night" was released, credited to both bands, in July before the film was released. It did nothing. But five days after the release of the film, when the Film Soundtrack was released by United Artists, the single charted and remained on the charts for thirteen weeks and was the number one song for two weeks.

Epstein quickly scheduled a new tour of America for the fall with the Rivals on the same stage and performing "A Hard Day's Night" together. Rivalmania came to American. Quickly the previous material of both bands were re-released and they swept up the charts too.

 

[Asharella]

Turn Turn Turn

At the end of 1964 the two Rival bands were still producing quite different types of music. That all changed in 1965 when both bands found a new influence.

In the late fifties and early sixties there were many types of music competing with each other for the hearts of the young. Besides the cool, piano based jazz that Lennon loved and the electric guitar rock 'n roll that McCartney loved there were also the soul music of Motown, the studio pop of Spector or the Brill Building, and folk music. While a lot of the young beats had started off being fans of the cool, piano based jazz that enchanted Lennon, in America they had pretty much switched over to folk music as their music of choice by the early sixties.

The dominant figure in American folk was Bob Dylan who intentionally followed in the footsteps of Woody Guthrie composing songs similar in style to traditional music with involved lyrics that were played on acoustic guitar with harmonica. Other acts concentrated on several singers harmonizing, from the trios of Peter, Paul and Mary or the Kingston Trio to the large choirs of the New Christy Minstrels. The folk music movement was much bigger than the small segment that got to record. In coffee shops and at festivals folkies performed their music as solo acts or groups.

Five folkies in Los Angels had formed a group and were hoping to find some measure of success like their idols, Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger. Then everything changed. They saw a film. It was "A Hard Day's Night."

From then on they wanted to be a rock 'n roll band like Sgt. Pepper. But they weren't ready to give up their folk music either. So they combined them. They played Dylan songs as if they were rock tunes. They were the Byrds. They got a recording contract. They had hits with rock versions of Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man" and Seeger's "Turn, Turn, Turn."

This new hybrid music, "Folk Rock," might have been just a quick, temporary, thing, a latest fad in an ever changing music scene. But then Dylan jettisoned pure folk himself and went electric. Traditionalists were horrified, including the great Pete Seeger, when he played with a rock band line up at the Newport Folk Festival. But the younger folkies followed Dylan and the Byrds and embraced rock, suddenly the dominant music in America was folk rock.

When the Rivals had toured America in the wake of the success of "A Hard Day's Night" there was one man who wanted to meet them and that they wanted to meet. Dylan had done the same thing with the Stones when they first came to America, but that meeting was more a respectful and friendly meeting of people with different musical interests. But when Dylan met with the Rivals it was an instant friendship and bond. The Rivals suddenly had new musical horizons opened to them. Basically they fell in love with Dylan.

So while Dylan and the Byrds were turning into rockers while staying folkies, the Rivals in early 1965 were turning into folkies while staying rockers or bluesy jazzers.

Before this Kiwi Lennon and Babyface McCartney had come to respect each other, to share the stage, to share members in their bands, to appear in a film together, and to even collaborate on a song. But their real musical interests were divergent. Suddenly they had something in common. They both appreciate Dylan. They both wanted to create acoustic songs.

Lennon had moved towards the guitar, but now he embraced it. McCartney's big change was wanting to write more involved lyrics about more than romance. Lennon and McCartney found themselves often sitting in the same room with two acoustic guitars playing together, singing songs together and even writing together.

When it was decided the Rivals needed to follow up with another film, they decided they wanted to include on it and the album that would go with it some of the songs they'd written together.

The Rivals weren't just rivals anymore. The small beginning of a partnership was developing. Nevertheless, the biggest hits from the summer of 1965 for the two bands were totally solo efforts, the Moondogs' "Help" and Sgt. Pepper's "Yesterday."

 

[Stolengood]

This is all great stuff, but... why did you wait almost two years to continue this TL?

 

[AgentOrange]

I don't care. The update let me find out about it. And I just want to see more of it.

 

[Asharella]

Why I waited two years

Well, I lost interest and thought that where I'd left it was a good ending point. I got busy with other things and didn't come to Alt History.

Then I was reading about the Comanche and saw a map of area they extended their dominance before the Spanish came and the area was called "Comancheria." Soon I was finding out what territory other tribes had dominated and before I knew it I was making a map of North America with all those "nations" as if the European projects on the continent had stayed at the fringe and the technological advancement of Europeans had slowed down.

When I got through with the map I wondered what to do with it and remembered Alt History. So I came back and started a TL called "The Nations of Hahnúnah." So far the responses have been that my POD are pretty weak and I'm just pretty much a useless ignoramus, but someone liked the map!

Anyway while getting back into the site I came across a message that was now quite old that asked me to continue the Kiwi TL. At first I thought, "Well, that's nice, but that TL is done."

Then I thought, "But if it wasn't done, what would happen next?"

As soon as I thought that I was back!

Thanks for appreciation, it's needed after the attacks over at "The Nations of Hahnúnah."

 

[Asharella]

Help Me

Still from the Rivals' second film, "Help Me!" shows McCartney listening to the Moondogs perform "Hide Your Love Away," one of the Dylanesque songs in the film.

 

[Stolengood]

I was just wondering why; this has been great, so far.

Was wondering... due to the boost the movies were giving their popularity, is it possible that, in this TL, "the Rivals" agree to a third film in 1967?

...something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_Against_It