Kingdoms at the Centre of the World

I checked your map.Dai and Yan were not included.In case you haven't realized,the fief of Emperor Wu's grandfather(Emperor Wen) before he became emperor was Dai.Yan was also give as a fief to the eighth son of Liu Bang and after this son was killed by Lu Zhi,it was granted to her great nephew.So your facts are clearly wrong.

Are we looking at the same map? It is clearly included in the Xiongnu territory. I mean not all of it, there were bits of Dai still Chinese and the same for Yan but if my facts are wrong then so are Sima Qian's and then so are yours.

That's only after they started to play the political game after Agincourt with the King of France being persuaded to disinherit his son and make the King of England(his son in law) king instead.It is worthwhile to note that immediately after Agincourt,the English packed their bags and went home instead of conquering any land.It's only after the returned the next year that after some negotiations,they were able to persuade the King of France(who was insane) and the Duke of Burgundy(who was a rival of the crown prince) to make Henry IV the next King of France.

Actually when Henry returned a year later he returned with another military campaign and captured land.


A lot of great generals messes up logistics.See how Napoleon and Charles XII fucked up their invasion of Russia for more information.Destroying your supplies and tell your soldiers to fight to death is a standard practice preached by Chinese military manuals.It's actually one of thirty-six stratagems supposedly written by Zhuge Liang.Even Han Xin himself did something similar when he fought Zhang Han.I also told you,you can't destroy armies several or ten times larger than you own unless either you are a military genius or your enemies' command is hilariously botched.The fact that Xiang Yu was able to repeatedly demolish armies much larger than his shows that he's a military genius.

Twice. He did it twice. That isn't repeatedly. It isn't like Hannibal where he did three times and won a number of smaller battles in the course of a couple of short years. What I am saying is not that great generals dont mess up logistics because it happens sometimes but great generals care about logistics while Xiang Yu ignored it. Napoleon messed up in Russia because he didn't anticipate the Russians not meeting him in battle and that stretched his supply lines further than they could go. Tbh I am actually done arguing this because I dont have the time nor do I actually care enough to keep arguing the same point again and again.
 
Twice. He did it twice. That isn't repeatedly. It isn't like Hannibal where he did three times and won a number of smaller battles in the course of a couple of short years. What I am saying is not that great generals dont mess up logistics because it happens sometimes but great generals care about logistics while Xiang Yu ignored it. Napoleon messed up in Russia because he didn't anticipate the Russians not meeting him in battle and that stretched his supply lines further than they could go. Tbh I am actually done arguing this because I dont have the time nor do I actually care enough to keep arguing the same point again and again.

Here are two maps of the Western Han Dynasty.One is before Emperor Wu came to power,it depicts the situation during the Revolt of the Seven Kings.
hanchao3.jpg


The other shows Modu's maximum expansion(green line) and the territory before Emperor Wu's conquests(dark yellow).Modu did not conquer Dai or Yan.
%E6%B1%89%E6%9C%9D%E8%A1%8C%E6%94%BF%E5%8C%BA%E5%88%92(%E7%AE%80).png


Prior to Russia,Napoleon's mostly lived off the land.
 
Here are two maps of the Western Han Dynasty.One is before Emperor Wu came to power,it depicts the situation during the Revolt of the Seven Kings.
hanchao3.jpg


The other shows Modu's maximum expansion(green line) and the territory before Emperor Wu's conquests(dark yellow).Modu did not conquer Dai or Yan.
%E6%B1%89%E6%9C%9D%E8%A1%8C%E6%94%BF%E5%8C%BA%E5%88%92(%E7%AE%80).png


Prior to Russia,Napoleon's mostly lived off the land.

There are definitely bits of Dai and Yan in there. Like I said not all of it but he definitely conquered parts of it or are you forgetting where they actually are?
 
There are definitely bits of Dai and Yan in there. Like I said not all of it but he definitely conquered parts of it or are you forgetting where they actually are?
No,because the city of Dai and the city of modern day Beijing as well as Liaoxi is clearly within the borders of the Han Dynasty.
 
No,because the city of Dai and the city of modern day Beijing as well as Liaoxi is clearly within the borders of the Han Dynasty.

Im not talking about the city of Dai. I am talking about the Kingdom. At least I presume Sima Qian was talking about the kingdom. But you know what? I don't actually care enough to keep this up. It is not worth any more of my time.
 
No,because the city of Dai and the city of modern day Beijing as well as Liaoxi is clearly within the borders of the Han Dynasty.

Im not talking about the city of Dai. I am talking about the Kingdom. At least I presume Sima Qian was talking about the kingdom. But you know what? I don't actually care enough to keep this up. It is not worth any more of my time.

A bit of an apology. I didn't mean to sound so snappy there at the end, TBH I've had a bit of a rough day today and it has left me in a bad mood (In all honesty no day that starts with me poking myself in the eye is going to go well for me) so sorry about that. I just want to round up what I was saying earlier now I've thought about it a bit more than I did.

1) I actually really like Xiang Yu no matter I have said about him and even after what has happened ITTL I'm not quite done with him yet nor am I done with the Chu. Tbf maybe I was underselling him a bit but I still stand by what I said earlier about Modu coming out on top and I still don't believe he is a military genius.

2) I never actually said Modu was going to hold Northern China in any way- I have plans that I'm working on for the next update and I have taken into consideration what you and uuuh.... the other guy who posted (Sorry I forgot his username) said in response to my posts. I stand by my belief that Modu would be able to sack Pengcheng because of the points I listed previously but I never said and I do not believe that Modu will hold half the land he has taken. Personally I like to think of the Xiongnu here a bit like the tide, them coming in and invading Northern China in this case where the entire region has just come out of a brutal civil war that has ravaged the defences, fortifications and populace is an inevitability. I believe that Modu would never have made it beyond the Yangtze because that would be ridiculous but my belief was that the weakness in China at the time and the skill of Modu would be enough for them to reach the Yangtze. But like the tide (as I said) they gained ground quickly but just as quickly are going to lose that ground and be very quickly reduced to a much smaller area in Northern China.

:) (I actually didn't know we had emojis)
 
Last edited:
Thoughts:

So I am looking for people's thoughts on what I'm currently thinking of going with in the next update.

First of all I'm wondering about the Han. My thinking is that a Lu Clan Disturbance of some sort is inevitable because even without the empire my thinking is that Empress (Queen ITTL) Lu will still massively favour her family and that after her death her opponents will still begin to suspect that her family plans to overthrow the Liu Clan and take power. Thoughts?

Following on from this I want to ask if Liu Heng might still come to the throne because they still wont choose Liu Fei's sons for the same reason they didn't OTL if there is of course a Lu Clan Disturbance of some sort so their next idea for making king would still be Liu Heng. I think that even without the advice of Song Chang (who in OTL convinced him to think about the offer properly) that the conspirators will still eventually convince him to take the throne. Again I desire your thoughts.

These are the two points I would really like some thoughts on.

Thanks,
RiseofBubblez
 
Thoughts:

So I am looking for people's thoughts on what I'm currently thinking of going with in the next update.

First of all I'm wondering about the Han. My thinking is that a Lu Clan Disturbance of some sort is inevitable because even without the empire my thinking is that Empress (Queen ITTL) Lu will still massively favour her family and that after her death her opponents will still begin to suspect that her family plans to overthrow the Liu Clan and take power. Thoughts?

Following on from this I want to ask if Liu Heng might still come to the throne because they still wont choose Liu Fei's sons for the same reason they didn't OTL if there is of course a Lu Clan Disturbance of some sort so their next idea for making king would still be Liu Heng. I think that even without the advice of Song Chang (who in OTL convinced him to think about the offer properly) that the conspirators will still eventually convince him to take the throne. Again I desire your thoughts.

These are the two points I would really like some thoughts on.

Thanks,
RiseofBubblez
Liu Heng is likely butterflied altogether.Liu Heng's mother was the concubine of Wei Bao,the King of Wei,who was an ally of Xiang Yu.Liu Bang only impregnated Liu Heng's mother after Wei Bao was defeated and he sent his concubine as a gift to Liu Bang in an attempt to ask for clemency.
 
Last edited:
Okay I did not actually know that so thanks. So in that case who might they turn to? I presume one of his other children but is there any one of those who is more likely than the others?
 
Okay I did not actually know that so thanks. So in that case who might they turn to? I presume one of his other children but is there any one of those who is more likely than the others?
I've noticed in this timeline that Wei is still defeated,but how hard were they defeated?Did Xiang Yu manage to save Wei Bao?If he got defeated and was captured by Liu Bang,Liu Heng might not be butterflied.It's a problematic because Liu Heng wasn't born until 202 BCE,after the POD.It's your call.

Assuming Queen Lu still had the same stepsons killed, and Liu Heng isn't there,other one candidate would be OTL Liu Chang,but Liu Chang was born after the POD as well.Another thing to note is that Liu Chang's mother was also a gift,but from the King of Zhao instead.Liu Chang was also a bit of an idiot IOTL.

Alternatively,Liu Bang could have ran into other women or that the officials would choose one of Liu Bang's grandsons instead.Even though Lu Zhi killed a lot of her stepsons,she did not kill her stepgrandsons(a lot of Liu Bang's other children had sons before they were purged).
 
Last edited:
I've noticed in this timeline that Wei is still defeated,but how hard were they defeated?Did Xiang Yu manage to save Wei Bao?If he got defeated and was captured by Liu Bang,Liu Heng might not be butterflied.It's a problematic because Liu Heng wasn't born until 202 BCE,after the POD.It's your call.

Assuming Queen Lu still had the same stepsons killed, and Liu Heng isn't there,other one candidate would be OTL Liu Chang,but Liu Chang was born after the POD as well.Another thing to note is that Liu Chang's mother was also a gift,but from the King of Zhao instead.Liu Chang was also a bit of an idiot IOTL.

Alternatively,Liu Bang could have ran into other women or that the officials would choose one of Liu Bang's grandsons instead.Even though Lu Zhi killed a lot of her stepsons,she did not kill her stepgrandsons(a lot of Liu Bang's other children had sons before they were purged).

Wasnt Wei Bao captured before the POD? And I also think he might have been killed at Xingyang before the POD as well.
 
Wasnt Wei Bao captured before the POD? And I also think he might have been killed at Xingyang before the POD as well.
He was indeed defeated and later killed at Xingyang in 204 BCE,but it depends on how you planned things considering Xiang Yu made a major comeback soon afterwards and might have actually saved his ally.THere's also the fact that Liu Heng wasn't born until 202 BCE.I did some further research around the net,and there are several different,conflicting accounts about Liu Heng's mother:1.she was the wife of Wei Bao and Wei Bao sent his wife to Liu Bang to avoid execution;2.she's the wife of Wei Bao but she wasn't sent to Liu Bang until after Wei Bao was killed;3.Liu Bang found her in Dai and took her up as a concubine.If you still want Liu Heng to be in the timeline,you can accept story number one,have Wei Bao send his wife over before he either gets killed or liberated by Xiang Yu and you might get Liu Heng.If you accept account number 2 and 3,then things are a bit iffy since Wei Bao and his family might be rescued by Xiang Yu or Liu Bang might not have traveled to Dai considering he's too busy fighting Xiang Yu and later even got beaten by him.
 
Last edited:
Top