Kingdoms at the Centre of the World

PROLOGUE (OOC):

Note from the Author:

So I think most people are going to be wanting an explanation for this given that this is literally a timeline I am already and currently working on at the moment. Well let me talk a bit about that TL and why this is happening right now. When I started the TL I had just finished reading John Keay's excellent book on China:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/China-History-John-Keay/dp/0007221789 (A bit long but worth a read)

Anyway I went in thinking 'It shouldn't be too hard to get my head around the Eighteen Kingdoms' considering that Keay more or less skimmed over it and didn't put that much emphasis on an exact breakdown of the entirety of the period (206-200 BCE) and to be fair I think I did that rather well. What I didn't do so well was two things:

1) Appreciating China, by which I mean I sort of failed on the demographics and geography of China- The Guanzhong debate between me and Darthfanta on the original TL is really only one example of this.

2) Much more critically, I didn't really organise myself very well and this led to some problems. In all honesty the Xiongnu should probably have made their presence known much earlier than they did in my TL which I sort of just hand-waved so I could continue on with what I was going with. Again this is only one example but what effectively happened was I ended up sort of just shooting in the dark at what is plausible to have happened without actually thinking critically enough to organise what might have or probably would have happened.

Along with a few thoughts I have been having recently on how I want to do this timeline and how I want to address the history I am trying to explore and talk about, I've decided that I'm going to rewrite the TL from the beginning. I'm not going to go back and simply make some edits to the other TL because I want to do this properly and I want to do it justice and because it feels honestly wrong for me to keep going with the TL when I feel that what I'm stumbling into is complete guesswork.

So what is this TL really going to be about? The POD and premise is the same and in all honesty the direction I've taken of proliferating the title of King-Hegemon is going to be pretty similar and of course there will be some similarities especially at the beginning. The difference, then, is how I am going to approach this- Much more rationally, in a much more organised way and I'm going to talk more about other aspects as well as politics and military matters, for example economics, trade, culture, society all of which have got to play a part in China and I can't just go through 60 years of history without at least addressing these topics. I am also going to bear in mind other things such as geography (which I did have in the back of my mind but probably should have focused on more personally) and demographics (because with such a big population in China this is important).

So from here on the TL can begin and I hope anyone who read the original is interested in seeing how I tackle it this time (because it is going to be different).


RiseofBubblez
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Kingdoms at the Centre of the World:
A History of China


In the Wake of the Qin
The Chu-Han Contention
(206-201 BCE)

King List:

Qin Empire (220-206 BCE):
Qin Shi Huang (220-210 BCE)
Qin Er Shi (210-207 BCE)
Ziying (207-206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Chu (206-):
Xiang Yu (206-)

Kingdom of Han (206-):
Liu Bang (206-)


Kingdom of Yong (206 BCE):
Zhang Han (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Sai (206 BCE):
Sima Xin (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Zhai (206 BCE):
Dong Yi (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Hengshan (206-):
Wu Rui (206-)

Kingdom of Hán (206-):
Han Cheng (206 BCE)
Zheng Chang (206 BCE)
Xin of Han (206-203 BCE)
Zheng Chang (203-)

Kingdom of Dai (206-205 BCE):
Zhao Xie (206 BCE)
Chen Yu (206-205 BCE)

---Title Defunct---


Kingdom of Zhao (206 BCE-)
Zhao Xie (206-205)
Zhang Er (205-203 BCE)
Zhao Xie (203-)

Kingdom of Henan (206-):
Shen Yang (206-)

Kingdom of Changshan (206 BCE):
Zhang Er (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Yin (206 BCE):
Sima Ang (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Wei (206 BCE):
Wei Bao (206)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Jiujiang (206 BCE):
Ying Bu (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Linjiang (206-):
Gong Ao (206-204)
Gong Wei (204-)

Kingdom of Yan (206-):
Zang Tu (206-)

Kingdom of Liaodong (206 BCE):
Han Guang (206-)

Kingdom of Qi (206-):
Tian Du (206-)

Kingdom of Jiaodong (206 BCE):
Tian Fu (206 BCE)

Kingdom of Jibei (206 BCE):
Tian An (206 BCE)


Eighteen_Kingdoms.png

The Eighteen Kingdoms
206 BCE
Credit: Nederlandse Leeuw
Xiang Yu was born a noble from Xiaxiang in 232 BCE but was largely taught by his uncle Xiang Liang with whom he would stay right up until 209 BCE when the Qin Empire erupted into chaos as peasant revolts tore the empire apart under the reign of Qin Er Shi and it was at this point that Xiang Liang and Xiang Yu would rise far beyond their position as mere nobles. That year Xiang Liang killed the administrator of the Kuaiji commandery and took the title of administrator for himself while installing a descendent of the previous royal family of Chu, Mi Xin, as King Huai II of Chu who was, in reality, nothing more than a puppet ruler. That very year Xiang Liang was killed at the Battle of Dingtao and his nephew took up his position before being made the Duke of Lu while at the same time another man, Liu Bang, was being sent by the king to invade the region of Guanzhong. 207 BCE would see two major events in the history of China: The Battle of Julu and the Feast at the Hong Gate. The Battle of Julu was a battle between the Qin Empire and the insurgent Chu under Xiang Yu which really marked the point at which the Qin's power in China is said to have been doomed as most of the Qin's army was wiped out in one decisive defeat. But what would really have massive ramifications even beyond this was the Feast at the Hong Gate when Xiang Yu moved on Guanzhong and found his position blocked by none other than Liu Bang himself. Furious that Liu Bang was to be made the King of Guanzhong, Xiang Yu stormed the defences of Guanzhong and met with Liu Bang at a feast where he attempted to have Liu Bang assassinated. Ultimately Xiang Yu decided to spare Liu Bang after listening to his uncle Xiang Bo but he drove the general out of Guanzhong and instead relegated him to the Hanzhong region just to the South and the damage to the relations between these two men was left in tatters.

When the Qin Empire fell in 206 BCE, Xiang Yu divided the entire empire up into 18 separate and distinct kingdoms reaching from the Han in the West to the Chu in the East and encompassing all those subordinates and rebel leaders who had fought under or with Xiang Yu during the rebellion. There were even some former Qin Generals such as Zhang Han, Sima Xin and Dong Yi the Kings of Yong, Sai and Zhai respectively and of course Wu Rui, the king of Hengshan in the South whose reign was supported by the local Yue tribes. King Huai was made Emperor Yi of Chu but was then assassinated by Xiang Yu shortly afterwards who now claimed hegemony over the other kingdoms of China as the first King-Hegemon of Chu. By the end of the year Xiang Yu would have killed yet another king, Han Cheng who was the King of Hán and whose kingdom was now seized by Xiang Yu and given to Zheng Chang. Needless to say Xiang Yu wouldn't hold his new position for long and by the end of the year he was fighting a rebellion from the Kingdom of Qi to the North whose king had been overthrown by Tian Rong who now moved against Jiaodong and Jibei and promptly overthrew their kings. At the same time a rebellion in the North resulted in Zhao Xie, King of Dai, becoming King of Zhao following the fall of Changshan to his forces supported by Tian Rong to the South. From here everything fell into chaos throughout China as Liu Bang took advantage of the rebellions in the North to launch an invasion into Guanzhong and conquer the region while Zang Tu, the King of Yan, killed Han Guang, King of Liadong, and united the two Northern Kingdoms as the Kingdom of Yan. The next two years would be dominated by one war in particular, that between Liu Bang and Xiang Yu for control of the entirety of China and, incidentally, a war that would decide the fate of how China was to exist seemingly from then on. Liu Bang seems to have favoured a Qin-style government, a very centralised imperial style of administration of China in which he would have been Emperor while Xiang Yu seems to have preferred a Zhou-style government in which he didn't directly control the kings of China but held hegemony and sway over all of them. The war would rage back and forth between the two with Xiang Yu winning against Liu Bang at Pengcheng but losing at Jingsuo but having conquered Jiujiang from Ying Bu in 205 BCE before that defeat.

By 204 BCE the Kingdoms of Wei, Zhao and Yan had all fallen to Liu Bang's victorious armies but there was about to be one event that would change the course of the war when, in that year, Han Xin invaded the Kingdom of Qi. He met the forces of Qi and Chu at the Battle of the Wei River and specifically went up against Tian Guang and Long Ju and, knowing how arrogant Long Ju was, set a trap to destroy the enemy army the night before battle. But it was here that things took a surprising turn when, on the day the two forces met, Long Ju actually chose to listen to advice who suggested that they use their superior numbers to simply wait Han Xin out and force him to surrender due to attrition. While they waited Tian Guang would rally support from the Qi cities that had fallen to the Han and deprive Han Xin of his resources and force him to a surrender. In a surprising move for the arrogant Long Ju, the plan was accepted and put into motion and so the Chu sat there. Cut off from his supplies and with now hostile cities to the rear, Han Xin had nowhere to go and as the time wore on he found that he had little choice but to surrender. This was crucial because with Han Xin's surrender, Liu Bang lost one of his most capable commanders and found that Xiang Yu now had much greater freedom in the North with a big and experienced army now sweeping back through Qi. At the same time Liu Bang had been trapped in Xingyang and desperately awaiting Han Xin's force and his escape from Xingyang was close and only because of his other great strategist Zhang Liang. By the end of the year the Chu and Qi forces had reconquered Linzi, the Qi capital, and even Lixia. With Xiang Yu to manage events near Chenggao and Xingying, Liu Bang found himself unable to push further in the region even as the Chu and Qi turned their attentions North towards the Yan. In 203 BC the joint Chu and Qi forces invaded Yan from the South, marching along the coastline and North-East towards the capital at Ji. The Battle of Ji was short but decisive and forced Zang Tu to retreat through the Shanhai Pass towards Shenyang closely followed by the Chu and Qi. The defeat at Ji made the outcome inevitable as Yan was far too far away for Liu Bang to adequately send reinforcements in time and the Shanhai Pass fell as his army retreated. This was the problem, the Shanhai Pass was a brilliant defensive location for threats from outside of China but didn't work quite as well in regards to threats coming from the South given that Ji was on the wrong side of the pass to protect against a threat from the Qi to the South. Soon enough Yan had fallen and the army could turn their attention West to Zhao. Protecting Zhao was of the utmost importance to Liu Bang who must have appreciated that if the Kingdom of Zhao fell then his forces in Hán and Wei would find themselves faced Xiang Yu from the East and Long Ju from the North and isolated from direct reinforcements from Guanzhong.

Throughout 203 BCE Xiang Yu's forces and those of Liu Bang would be in heavy conflict in these regions throughout Zhao in the North and Wei in the South. Liu Bang had one major advantage in this fight, he had Guanzhong which provided him with huge amounts of soldiers to use against Xiang Yu whose manpower wasn't as big as that of Liu Bang and who would probably run out of soldiers long before Liu Bang would. Liu Bang had a strong army himself but seemed unable to ever make any headway against Xiang Yu in the region and with Xiang Yu's army pushing from the North against Zhao, time was not on his side. Part of the problem was that loyalties were not always secure and in many cases the loyalties of people relied upon who was winning at the time which, in this case was Xiang Yu. After Pengcheng there had been defections and Liu Bang was probably only too aware of what might happen if he suffered a major defeat against Xiang Yu especially after what happened at the Wei River. To be honest time was running out for both Liu Bang and Xiang Yu by this point, the people of China were worn out by war and land and urban centres had been devastated. More notably was the manpower of China which, while very very sizeable, was being drained dry in the constant conflict between Xiang Yu and Liu Bang. The question was, would the Zhao collapse or would the Chu be stopped by the defenders? Well the Zhao had, theoretically, one major defensive advantage in the Yanshan Mountains which could have been used to defend against an assault from the South but the assault wasn't coming from the South as opposed to the North-East and, save for a few small regions, this allowed them much easier access to the plains of Northern Zhao. What we should also bear in mind is that the Zhao Kingdom had never been as prosperous as it's neighbours such as the Qin or the Qi both of whom had much bigger populations than the Zhao did and before the military reforms King Wuling in the 4th Century BC, the Warring States Period Zhao had never been nearly strong enough to resist its neighbours. So when it came to the defence of Zhao, the state was very much dependent on resources from Liu Bei that were also needed for the fight against Xiang Yu in the South and this put a further strain on Liu Bang's resources.

Soon the Zhao had begun to buckle even with resources and supplies from Liu Bang, this was worsened because Liu Bang couldn't afford to send his best generals such as Zhang Liang to fight in Zhao and the loyalty of some generals such as Peng Yue was always in question especially at times like these. By the end of the year Liu Bang was finding his position increasingly threatened by the advance of the Chu and Qi through Zhao and this in turn began to threaten his entire war against Xiang Yu. By 202 events had come to a head as Liu Bang had been forced to start ceding ground at risk of losing access back to Guanzhong and soon had been more or less forced right back behind the defences of the mountains around Guanzhong where he and Xiang Yu fell promptly into a stalemate. Liu Bang couldn't push out because Xiang Yu held most of China and the resources that came along with it and Xiang Yu couldn't push in because Liu Bang held the mountain passes and the associated Qin defences. While no ceasefire had yet been agreed (there wouldn't be one until 201 BCE) the point at which this stalemate set in in 202 is often considered the point at which the Chu-Han Contention really ended because it was the point at which neither side could really afford for the conflict to drag on without a ceasefire. Both Xiang Yu and Liu Bang now wanted time to recover from the crippling conflict of the past 4 years both economically and militarily especially given that neither side could really push beyond their current positions. Nevertheless in 201 BCE the two kings agreed on a ceasefire known as the Treaty of the Hangzhou Pass that, for the time being, brought the conflict to an end and gave both leaders some chance to recover.
 
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Much better than the first after reading it along with your author note, indicating why you went for a rewrite.

The sign of a very good writer, to recognize, acknowledge, and rectify the problem. Not many authors do that. Most would argue their point regardless, and do no even bother merely editing so much as an actual rewrite.

So, thank you, and good luck. I will be looking forward to reading more.
 
The Fall of the Chu
The Chu Period
(201-197BCE)


King List:

Qin Empire (220-206 BCE):
Qin Shi Huang (220-210 BCE)
Qin Er Shi (210-207 BCE)
Ziying (207-206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Chu (206-197 BCE):
Xiang Yu (206-197 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Han (206-):
Liu Bang (206-)

Kingdom of Yong (206 BCE):
Zhang Han (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Sai (206 BCE):
Sima Xin (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Zhai (206 BCE):
Dong Yi (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Hengshan (206-):
Wu Rui (206-)

Kingdom of Hán (206-):
Han Cheng (206 BCE)
Zheng Chang (206 BCE)
Xin of Han (206-203 BCE)
Zheng Chang (203-)

Kingdom of Dai (206-205 BCE):
Zhao Xie (206 BCE)
Chen Yu (206-205 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Zhao (206-201 BCE)
Zhao Xie (206-205)
Zhang Er (205-203 BCE)
Zhao Xie (203-201 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Henan (206 BCE):
Shen Yang (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Changshan (206 BCE):
Zhang Er (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Yin (206 BCE):
Sima Ang (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Wei (206 BCE):
Wei Bao (206)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Jiujiang (206 BCE):
Ying Bu (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Linjiang (206-):
Gong Ao (206-204)
Gong Wei (204-)

Kingdom of Yan (206-201 BCE):
Zang Tu (206-201 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Liaodong (206 BCE):
Han Guang (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Qi (206-200 BCE):
Tian Du (206 BCE)
Tian Rong (206-205 BCE)
Tian Guang (205-200 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Jiaodong (206 BCE):
Tian Fu (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

Kingdom of Jibei (206 BCE):
Tian An (206 BCE)

---Title Defunct---

The Xiongnu Empire (240-)
Touman Chanyu (240-209 BCE)
Modu Chanyu (209-)
Just as much as Xiang Yu's hegemony over the other Chinese kingdoms forced him into dealing with their rebellions whenever they cropped up as they had in the Qi and Yan even before Liu Bang's war against the Chu between 206 and 201 BCE, this very hegemony put him into conflict with states even beyond the borders of China. In 209 BCE the 25-year old Modu assassinated his father, over the next 6 years, slowly subjugated the other peoples of Mongolia so that as the war between Liu Bang and Xiang Yu was dividing China, the wars of Modu were uniting Mongolia. Often hailed as the founder of the Xiongnu Empire, Modu's control of Mongolia by 203 BCE gave him access to a number of important trade routes through which wealth could flow into the empire. The Qin Dynasty had succeeded in keeping the Xiongnu at bay under Modu's father, Touman Chanyu but the Qin Dynasty was now gone and China was divided and in the middle of a massive war between Xiang Yu and Liu Bang and as a result it was seemingly ripe for the taking. Within less than a year of the war between Xiang Yu and Liu Bang being brought to a ceasefire at the Hangzhou Pass, the Xiongnu were threatening Northern China and Xiang Yu had to move to try and stop them.

Part of the problem was that the collapse of the Qin Dynasty brought with it the collapse of many of the defences along the Northern border that had kept the Xiongnu out of China in the first place and unlike the Qin, Xiang Yu was coming out of a brutal 5 year long war that even with the massive population of China must have largely exhausted the lands and worn down the available manpower given the number and frequency of battles and the sheer numbers of men involved. In comparison Modu was invading with a fresh force from lands that hadn't seen an invading army in the last year and with experience fighting against Chinese soldiers given that he had seized the Ordos region from the collapsing Qin Empire. But another problem was loyalty, the Chinese kings were notorious for their shifting loyalties depending on whoever was winning such as at Pengcheng where a number of kings defected to Xiang Yu after Liu Bang's defeat. This was especially troublesome for Xiang Yu because Liu Bang still held out in Hanzhong and Guanzhong and this undermined his fragile authority over the other kings and now with Modu sweeping in from the North, his authority was put to the test once again because now he was faced with an opponent from beyond China who sought to conquer the Northern Kingdoms. Modu, in comparison, was ruthless in promoting loyalty and famously had had his soldiers all kill their favourite horse to prove their loyalty and would execute any soldier who disobeyed an order which gave his army one very major advantage- unity. This went beyond military unity, of course, and into the realms of political unity in which Xiang Yu was always at risk of facing problems from the kings of China and in the long run he couldn't afford to throw all his resources into a war against the Xiongnu especially if he were losing the war because he needed resources to combat the other kings should they revolt- bear in mind Liu Bang was still alive in Guanzhong and still a huge threat to the Chu.
This was a fight Xiang Yu couldn't win because, even if he did come out on top militarily which was very unlikely, he couldn't risk moving to go on the offensive and so Modu could quite easily regroup and try again and time was not Xiang Yu's side if just because of Liu Bang threatening him in the West.

When Modu attacked in 201 BCE he found himself faced with absolutely no opposition along the borders given that the Qin fortifications along the Northern border had fallen out of most use and any garrisons that may have existed from the Zhao or Yan were now non-existent given the fighting that had taken place in both regions over the last couple of years. The Xiongnu fought primarily on horseback with light armour (mostly leather) and wooden shields but skilled with a bow and better in cavalry-based warfare than the Chinese cavalry. Since the Chinese armies were mostly comprised of conscripts, relatively few of them had actually been trained to fight on horseback and so many were simply infantry who moved much slower than the Xiongnu cavalry. But infantry had its own advantages as they were much more heavily armoured than the Xiongnu and their crossbows were more powerful than the bows used by the cavalrymen they opposed as well as the fact that the Xiongnu were actually easier to bring down with arrow/crossbow fire given that neither they nor their horses had very significant armour and that horses made a bigger, if fast-moving, target for archers. According to some sources, the Chinese cavalry could also be devastating in close-combat against the Xiongnu cavalry but the Xiongnu were generally faster and much more efficient on horseback than their opponents. On one hand the Chinese had bigger forces and generally superior equipment but the Xiongnu had speed, well-trained and loyal soldiers and a skilled commander to whom they were very loyal. What we should also bear in mind was that the disunited state of China meant that no one had the resources nor time to train large numbers of conscripts in cavalry warfare and then make sure thousands of conscripts had horses and equipment to go up against the Xiongnu who were trained from birth to fight on horseback.

Geographically the Kingdom of Zhao was an interesting region because much of the region of what had been Changshan before it's conquest in 205 BCE was in the North China plain but this plain was bordered by the Yanshan Mountains to the North and much of what had once been Dai lay on the other side of these mountains. On the other side of these mountains, the Kingdom of Zhao was pretty flat although with the Yanshan mountains to the South and the Liupan Mountains* from the South-West and this was ideal land for mounted warfare such as that of the Xiongnu. Modu swept South towards what had once been the capital of the pre-Qin Zhao state until the 5th Century at Jinyang which was actually just West of the North China Plain and quite far South in China. While Xiang Yu managed to break the siege initially, his attempts to chase the Xiongnu resulted in disaster as Modu managed to ambush his army and inflict a heavy defeat on the Chinese forces who were forced back South in response. This was where the real problems with Xiang Yu begin to really manifest themselves once again, he was a skilled commander but politically failed on a number of points such as trusting Liu Bang to uphold the ceasefire which he wouldn't and at times his failure to make proper use of skilled commanders such as his failure to make use of Fan Zeng. Personality-wise he was criticised by Han Xin who said that he was 'A man who turns into a fierce warrior when he encounters a rival stronger than himself, but also one who is sympathetic and soft-hearted when he sees someone weaker than he is' and these statements, that he was often too trusting such as in adhering strictly to the ceasefire, were echoed by later historians. He is also often described as being sometimes foolhardy and some historians have criticised him as not always considering tactics enough in conflict such as logistics which he had sometimes neglected in his war against Liu Bang. This had been manifest after Pengcheng when he failed to follow up his victory but instead returned to the city to help out the starving populace. Against Modu this was disastrous because while Xiang Yu wasn't a bad general, he was fighting a very different army to when he was fighting the Qin or Han because in this case it wasn't a standard Chinese army of conscripts with a relatively familiar setup and background both in the physical form (armour, weapons etc.) and the tactical (strategy, logistics etc.) but an army that fought in a very different style. This wasn't a style alien to the Chinese after all the Qin had defeated the Xiongnu before and even the pre-Qin Zhao had used this style of warfare to an extent but it needed more tactical thought from Xiang Yu to adapt his soldiers to try and beat this form of warfare.

News of the defeat at the hands of the Xiongnu spread quickly through China even as Xiang Yu was hurriedly returning to Pengcheng to try and raise more forces to oppose the advancing Xiongnu armies. This was something unprecedented because, prior to the Xiongnu, the peoples North of China had never been united quite like this and with the wealth and resources to bring a war down against the Chinese to the South. This was an ideal political situation for Modu who had a united, strong Xiongnu empire to the North and a divided, chaotic China to the South that had just come out of a 5 year war and was still divided very much between two kings who held influence over a number of others and even better, the Northern Kingdoms were ravaged by war and in little state to actually defend themselves against Modu. This was a clever strategist in his prime with the resources and ability to conquer a land filled with disunited and divided kingdoms only nominally held together by some weak hegemony and kings whose loyalty was shifting at the best of times. The arrival of Modu was really the point at which the writing was on the wall for Xiang Yu and his hegemony of China. Modu continued South, capturing and sacking Jinyang and making his way South along the Fen River to where it joined with the Wei River and then heading East into the Kingdom of Qi where he sacked Linzi. The Xiongnu typically wanted goods such as grain, silks and other products that came from the settled economies of China and this was one of the very reasons why Modu invaded Northern China in 201 but he definitely had conquest in mind and possibly hoped to bring the Xiongnu back to the Yellow River at least, a region they had once inhabited but had been driven out of by the Qin. In the flat, open plains of the North China Plain, the Xiongnu were destructive and Modu's own military skill made him a fearsome enemy for both the Qi and the Chu whenever they faced him. With Xiang Yu occupied with the invasion of the Xiongnu in the East, Liu Bang took his chance in the West on the advice of Zhang Liang and Chen Ping to begin pushing out once again as he began launching campaigns once again out of Guanzhong into the nearby Wei and Hán Kingdoms.

By the end of 200 BCE Xiang Yu's control of China was falling apart as he was increasingly beleaguered by Modu and almost helpless as a result to face Liu Bang in the West while his influence deteriorated rapidly in the South. Liu Bang wasn't entirely saved from Modu who would fight against his forces in Wei and Han which, while Liu Bang would fare a bit better, would still result in the Han being driven out of these provinces. However Modu was unable at this point to push further into Han and his forces were halted at the mountains surrounding Guanzhong by the efforts of Liu Bang's generals as well as the Qin-era defences that protected the passes into Guanzhong. Xiang Yu would continue to suffer defeats at the hands of Modu's forces culminating in the sack of Pengcheng in 197 BCE. This was the difference between Liu Bang and Xiang Yu in how Liu Bang made peace much earlier on the advice of Chen Ping and had agreed to pay some tribute to Modu as well as establish trade between the Han and the Xiongnu while Xiang Yu fought on until his defeat at Pengcheng in 197 BCE. The Sack of Pengcheng is considered by most historians to be the end of the Chu period because it marked the end of any even nominal Chu domination in China and really begins the period in which we have to turn our attentions away from the Chu and towards the people who had now surpassed them, the Xiongnu. Xiang Yu's peace treaty resulted in him being forced to pay a very heavy tribute to Modu as well as having to send noblewomen to the Xiongnu as brides for their own nobles and royal family but what was most crippling was him being effectively forced into being a vassal of the Xiongnu. Having effectively subjugated most of China, Modu would turn his attention back North where he subsequently subjugated the Yuezhi and Wusun peoples who at the time inhabited the region around the Gansu corridor thus expanding and strengthening the very empire he had now founded, the empire that for the next while would effectively dominate China.

OHBZQXW.png

The Xiongnu Empire in under Modu Chanyu
Many of the kingdoms of Northern China including the Chu had been subjugated as vassals of the Xiongnu Empire

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Sources:

Warfare in Chinese History H.J Van Derven
Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900 David Graff
China: A History John Keay
Encyclopaedia Britannica

*(OOC: Can someone with more knowledge of China's geography confirm if these are the mountains that border Guanzhong, modern day Shaanxi, from the North and would have bordered Zhao from the South-West)
 
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Much better than the first after reading it along with your author note, indicating why you went for a rewrite.

The sign of a very good writer, to recognize, acknowledge, and rectify the problem. Not many authors do that. Most would argue their point regardless, and do no even bother merely editing so much as an actual rewrite.

So, thank you, and good luck. I will be looking forward to reading more.

Thank you. Tbh I just wasn't sure I liked the way it was going so I felt that it was wrong for me to continue it when I didn't like nor feel the direction it was going was right given the POD. I'm going to try and do better this time.
 
While I have no doubt that Xiang Yu would be at a disadvantage against the Xiongnu,I highly doubt the Xiongnu could have completely overrun northern China.Xiang Yu was a master of war who was able to triumph over much greater odds before and indeed,the Chinese have defeated the nomads before even when they had fewer cavalry than them.Besides,the Xiongnu would need to find a way to break through fortifications.The main reason they couldn't overrun the Han Dynasty in otl even after massive victories over Han forces under the militarily incompetent Liu Bang was because of fortifications.Most nomads with few exceptions are incompetent at taking fortified settlements.
 
While I have no doubt that Xiang Yu would be at a disadvantage against the Xiongnu,I highly doubt the Xiongnu could have completely overrun northern China.Xiang Yu was a master of war who was able to triumph over much greater odds before and indeed,the Chinese have defeated the nomads before even when they had fewer cavalry than them.Besides,the Xiongnu would need to find a way to break through fortifications.The main reason they couldn't overrun the Han Dynasty in otl even after massive victories over Han forces under the militarily incompetent Liu Bang was because of fortifications.Most nomads with few exceptions are incompetent at taking fortified settlements.

Few points:

1) Xiang Yu is NOT a 'master of war' he was a decent general but too often neglected strategy or, more often and sometimes more notably, logistics. Julu was because of Xiang's soldiers fighting extremely fiercely and even Pengcheng was not because of any strategy but because of them taking the Han by surprise.

2) Yes the Chinese have beaten the Xiongnu before but the situations were very different given that Meng Tian was a very capable commander compared to Xiang Yu who, while capable, often neglected logistics as shown at Gaixa where his neglect of his supply lines allowed Zhang Liang to destroy his supply lines and weaken his army. Modu was a brilliant commander with a very powerful force (estimated at about 300,000 for Baideng) who was only stopped from destroying Liu Bang at the Battle of Baideng because the siege only lasted 7 days because Chen Ping bribed Modu's wife.

3) China has just come out of a civil war and Xiang Yu doesnt even get time to let his army recover because he basically has to rush from Guanzhong to the North to face Modu almost immediately. Also Modu is invading areas that have been invaded very recently such as Yan, Zhao, Qi, Henan and in many cases the majority of fortifications have been quite badly hit by the Chinese themselves during their war and most kingdoms probably dont even have the resources left to give them, much of a garrison to hold out against Modu. In OTL he basically walked past the Northern fortifications WITH a strong united state so that the first set of fortifications is out ofhe way because there is no way they are adequately defended ITTL. Modu already has some experience going uo against Chinese fortifications because he already siezed the Ordos from the Qin when they were collapsing. In OTL Modu captured a huge swathe of Northern China down to the yellow river and everything I have read doesnt say he was stopped by 'Han fortifications' but by Liu Bang making a peace treaty after Chen Ping bribed Modu's wife.
 
Few points:

1) Xiang Yu is NOT a 'master of war' he was a decent general but too often neglected strategy or, more often and sometimes more notably, logistics. Julu was because of Xiang's soldiers fighting extremely fiercely and even Pengcheng was not because of any strategy but because of them taking the Han by surprise.

2) Yes the Chinese have beaten the Xiongnu before but the situations were very different given that Meng Tian was a very capable commander compared to Xiang Yu who, while capable, often neglected logistics as shown at Gaixa where his neglect of his supply lines allowed Zhang Liang to destroy his supply lines and weaken his army. Modu was a brilliant commander with a very powerful force (estimated at about 300,000 for Baideng) who was only stopped from destroying Liu Bang at the Battle of Baideng because the siege only lasted 7 days because Chen Ping bribed Modu's wife.

3) China has just come out of a civil war and Xiang Yu doesnt even get time to let his army recover because he basically has to rush from Guanzhong to the North to face Modu almost immediately. Also Modu is invading areas that have been invaded very recently such as Yan, Zhao, Qi, Henan and in many cases the majority of fortifications have been quite badly hit by the Chinese themselves during their war and most kingdoms probably dont even have the resources left to give them, much of a garrison to hold out against Modu. In OTL he basically walked past the Northern fortifications WITH a strong united state so that the first set of fortifications is out ofhe way because there is no way they are adequately defended ITTL. Modu already has some experience going uo against Chinese fortifications because he already siezed the Ordos from the Qin when they were collapsing. In OTL Modu captured a huge swathe of Northern China down to the yellow river and everything I have read doesnt say he was stopped by 'Han fortifications' but by Liu Bang making a peace treaty after Chen Ping bribed Modu's wife.
Fighting fiercely alone is not sufficient to explain how he beat armies several times his number.Wang Li,the man he beat at Julu was a highly experienced border commander who constantly fought nomads and a lot of the troops under his command were veterans in the unification wars and the wars against the nomads.Xiang Yu beat 200,000 of them with only around 60,000 soldiers.Immediately after the Battle of Julu,Xiang Yu also maneuvered his army in such fashion that he trapped the remaining 200,000 Qin soldiers under Zhang Han.Xiang Yu most likely wouldn't have been defeated at Gaixia at all if Liu Bang never used treachery or if his wife wasn't there and required rescuing.

As for Pencheng,he beat an army of 600,000 using 30,000.Taking an enemy by surprise is an essential strategy used by many great generals including people like Hannibal.

Another thing you don't seem to realize is that after the Battle of Baideng,Modu was actually defeated by Xiahou Ying,Cao Cao's supposed ancestor.

3) China has just come out of a civil war and Xiang Yu doesnt even get time to let his army recover because he basically has to rush from Guanzhong to the North to face Modu almost immediately. Also Modu is invading areas that have been invaded very recently such as Yan, Zhao, Qi, Henan and in many cases the majority of fortifications have been quite badly hit by the Chinese themselves during their war and most kingdoms probably dont even have the resources left to give them, much of a garrison to hold out against Modu. In OTL he basically walked past the Northern fortifications WITH a strong united state so that the first set of fortifications is out ofhe way because there is no way they are adequately defended ITTL. Modu already has some experience going uo against Chinese fortifications because he already siezed the Ordos from the Qin when they were collapsing. In OTL Modu captured a huge swathe of Northern China down to the yellow river and everything I have read doesnt say he was stopped by 'Han fortifications' but by Liu Bang making a peace treaty after Chen Ping bribed Modu's wife.
Never heard of this part.
 
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Fighting fiercely alone is not sufficient to explain how he beat armies several times his number.Wang Li,the man he beat at Julu was a highly experienced border commander who constantly fought nomads and a lot of the troops under his command were veterans in the unification wars and the wars against the nomads.Xiang Yu beat 200,000 of them with only around 60,000 soldiers.Immediately after the Battle of Julu,Xiang Yu also maneuvered his army in such fashion that he trapped the remaining 200,000 Qin soldiers under Zhang Han.Xiang Yu most likely wouldn't have been defeated at Gaixia at all if Liu Bang never used treachery or if his wife wasn't there and required rescuing.

I honestly am not going to continue arguing this point because it will go on forever and I honestly dont have time.

As for Pencheng,he beat an army of 600,000 using 30,000.Taking an enemy by surprise is an essential strategy used by many great generals including people like Hannibal.

Another thing you don't seem to realize is that after the Battle of Baideng,Modu was actually defeated by Xiahou Ying,Cao Cao's supposed ancestor.

Never heard of this part.

This is the point I want to argue. I can find no evidence of a fight after Baideng at all. Nothing I have read, and I have done extensive reading and research on this, has given me any evidence for Xiahou Ying fighting Modu after Baideng because to all intents and purposes Baideng was the last battle in the war because it was ended with a peace treaty. The closest I have seen is one source saying he helped Liu Bang at Baideng. But please I want your sources because nothing I have read whatsoever has said that. For example 'The Ancient History of Manchuria' by Lee Mosol goes into detail on this and never once mentions a battle after Baideng because he mentions that Baideng ended after 7 days and was the last battle in the war. There cant be a battle between Modu and Xiahou Ying afterwards because there wasnt another battle afterwards- Modu didnt invade China again but instead went off to conquer someone else.

Also yes that bit you have never heard off is true. This is the OTL map of the Xiongnu under him (first one I could find).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Hsiung-nu-Empire.png (Sorry Im on my ipad with fading internet so I cant really give much more than this picture)
 
This is the point I want to argue. I can find no evidence of a fight after Baideng at all. Nothing I have read, and I have done extensive reading and research on this, has given me any evidence for Xiahou Ying fighting Modu after Baideng because to all intents and purposes Baideng was the last battle in the war because it was ended with a peace treaty. The closest I have seen is one source saying he helped Liu Bang at Baideng. But please I want your sources because nothing I have read whatsoever has said that. For example 'The Ancient History of Manchuria' by Lee Mosol goes into detail on this and never once mentions a battle after Baideng because he mentions that Baideng ended after 7 days and was the last battle in the war. There cant be a battle between Modu and Xiahou Ying afterwards because there wasnt another battle afterwards- Modu didnt invade China again but instead went off to conquer someone else.

Also yes that bit you have never heard off is true. This is the OTL map of the Xiongnu under him (first one I could find).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Hsiung-nu-Empire.png (Sorry Im on my ipad with fading internet so I cant really give much more than this picture)
The 95 chapter of the Records of the Grand Historian documents Xiahou Ying defeating Modu.

The Yellow River that he's taken is the Ordos region.
 
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The 95 chapter of the Records of the Grand Historian documents Xiahou Ying defeating Modu.

The Yellow River that he's taken is the Ordos region.

I cant access that passage but an earlier part of the 'Records of the Grand Historian' does not mention that at all but in the absence of being able to find an actual translation of it I'll have to take your word for it. What I find weird is that the 'Records of the Grand Historian' seems to be the only source that seems to mention this especially strange because modern books should be based off Sima's work so what I don't understand is, if indeed it does mention it which I don't actually know if it does, why no one else mentions it.

The part I read said exactly what I said, that Liu Bang was surrounded at Baideng and after 7 days they bribed Modu's wife into convincing him to accept a peace treaty with Liu Bang (specifically I was reading his account of the Xiongnu) literally no other source I have read corroborates the idea that Xiahou Ying defeated Modu after Baideng so if the book does say that then it is mentioned nowhere else in any other source I can find.

It does bring up some interesting points with the one I am most interesting in being when he mentions Modu 'massing a force of 300,000 skilled crossbowmen' which, and I'd like your thoughts on this point, could mean that he had access to Chinese equipment and styles of warfare? Or at least could use them?

Either way this holds very little impact on our original argument- whether or not Modu could have overrun as much of Northern China as I said he did ITTL and TBH you've failed to convince me that he couldn't have. Fortified settlements would be difficult but Sima Qian himself mentions in the Shiji that Modu invaded Dai and Yan (more than just the Ordos Region) which would suggest that he probably had at least some skill or experience in taking fortified settlements which, combined with the fact that many of these fortifications will have been damaged by the fact that they were fought over and often captured by Liu Bang or Xiang Yu during the war and the situation in which their garrisons won't be as strong as they would have been and China is political disunited, would suggest that he can win. Modu is invading China after it has just come out of a huge war that dragged on for 5 years and cost countless casualties, China is politically divided with loyalties shaky at the best of times, he has a strong, skilled and big military force and is an extremely skilled commander going up against a general who is capable but sometimes foolhardy and ignores important parts of warfare such as logistics when that leader himself doesn't have the full support of the Chinese kings. The point is that Xiang Yu is facing an arguably better general with less resources, a tired and weakened army, little political support and a devastated countryside with a greatly reduced populace to fall back on in case of major defeats. Unlike the Han or Qin Dynasties he does not have a unified country nor does he have the type of army that would inflict the heaviest defeats on the Xiongnu in the 130s BC, an army that had a very big cavalry contingent. The Qin beat the Xiongnu before but that wasn't the same Xiongnu the Chu were facing, same state but in very different circumstances with a far less efficient general and far less political and military unity to use against the Chinese. If and only if Xiahou Ying did fight and beat Modu after Baideng, which I still doubt I am afraid, it still makes little impact on how Xiang Yu would do against Modu.
 
Per modern scholarship, the Xiongnu do not appear to have been interested in conquering significant areas of China (true 'conquest dynasties,' exemplified by the Qing, are primarily a post-Tang phenomenon, before that foreign regimes tended to lose non-Chinese features). Rather, the Xiongnu just wanted to extort tribute.
 
Per modern scholarship, the Xiongnu do not appear to have been interested in conquering significant areas of China (true 'conquest dynasties,' exemplified by the Qing, are primarily a post-Tang phenomenon, before that foreign regimes tended to lose non-Chinese features). Rather, the Xiongnu just wanted to extort tribute.

I'm not sure. Modu always seemed like a would-be conqueror given that his military campaigns were never really just raiding campaigns and that he was, for all intents and purposes, an empire builder.
 
I cant access that passage but an earlier part of the 'Records of the Grand Historian' does not mention that at all but in the absence of being able to find an actual translation of it I'll have to take your word for it. What I find weird is that the 'Records of the Grand Historian' seems to be the only source that seems to mention this especially strange because modern books should be based off Sima's work so what I don't understand is, if indeed it does mention it which I don't actually know if it does, why no one else mentions it.
The exact passage is this:“追北至平城,为胡所围,七日不得通。高帝使使厚遗阏氏,冒顿开围一角。高帝出欲驰,婴固徐行,弩皆持满外向,卒得脱。益食婴细阳千户。复以太仆从击胡骑句 注北,大破之。以太仆击胡骑平城南,三陷陈,功为多,赐所夺邑五百户。”

My Chinese isn't exactly top notch,but I think I can provide a rough translation.

After pursuing north to the city of Ping,Liu Bang was surrounded by the barbarians for seven days.Liu Bang then bribed Modu's wife to persuade him to let him go.Liu Bang left with Xiahou Ying accompanying him,with the troops pointing their crossbow outwards to cover the escape.Xiahou Ying was then granted an extra one thousand households as part of his fief.Subsequently,the Minister Coachman(Xiahou Ying's official position in government) struck north and defeated the barbarians decisively. By defeating the barbarians in the south of Ping City,the Minister Coachman was granted an extra five hundred households as part of his fief.
The part I read said exactly what I said, that Liu Bang was surrounded at Baideng and after 7 days they bribed Modu's wife into convincing him to accept a peace treaty with Liu Bang (specifically I was reading his account of the Xiongnu) literally no other source I have read corroborates the idea that Xiahou Ying defeated Modu after Baideng so if the book does say that then it is mentioned nowhere else in any other source I can find.

It does bring up some interesting points with the one I am most interesting in being when he mentions Modu 'massing a force of 300,000 skilled crossbowmen' which, and I'd like your thoughts on this point, could mean that he had access to Chinese equipment and styles of warfare? Or at least could use them?

Either way this holds very little impact on our original argument- whether or not Modu could have overrun as much of Northern China as I said he did ITTL and TBH you've failed to convince me that he couldn't have. Fortified settlements would be difficult but Sima Qian himself mentions in the Shiji that Modu invaded Dai and Yan (more than just the Ordos Region) which would suggest that he probably had at least some skill or experience in taking fortified settlements which, combined with the fact that many of these fortifications will have been damaged by the fact that they were fought over and often captured by Liu Bang or Xiang Yu during the war and the situation in which their garrisons won't be as strong as they would have been and China is political disunited, would suggest that he can win. Modu is invading China after it has just come out of a huge war that dragged on for 5 years and cost countless casualties, China is politically divided with loyalties shaky at the best of times, he has a strong, skilled and big military force and is an extremely skilled commander going up against a general who is capable but sometimes foolhardy and ignores important parts of warfare such as logistics when that leader himself doesn't have the full support of the Chinese kings. The point is that Xiang Yu is facing an arguably better general with less resources, a tired and weakened army, little political support and a devastated countryside with a greatly reduced populace to fall back on in case of major defeats. Unlike the Han or Qin Dynasties he does not have a unified country nor does he have the type of army that would inflict the heaviest defeats on the Xiongnu in the 130s BC, an army that had a very big cavalry contingent. The Qin beat the Xiongnu before but that wasn't the same Xiongnu the Chu were facing, same state but in very different circumstances with a far less efficient general and far less political and military unity to use against the Chinese. If and only if Xiahou Ying did fight and beat Modu after Baideng, which I still doubt I am afraid, it still makes little impact on how Xiang Yu would do against Modu.
I have not heard about Modu massing a force of 300,000 skilled crossbowmen.Crafting such a large amount of crossbows would probably require a level of sophistication that Xiongnus might not apprehend.As for Dai and Yan,those are border regions.If he could have conquered those regions,why couldn't he hold them?My intuition is that the Han must be that he could pillage those regions but not conquer it.As for him letting Liu Bang go after his wife got bribed,if Modu was a brilliant leader,why would he let his enemy go simply because his wife asked him to?My personal belief is that the Chinese must have gave him quite some trouble.
There's a massive difference between invading those regions and capturing them.For example,during the Hundred Years' War,the English frequently launched invasions into France that were able to pillage large regions of France but were generally unable to capture any castles,towns or cities(see for chevauchee for more information). While Xiangyu most likely do not have a large cavalry force,nor the numbers Liu Bang might command,it is still worthy to note that Xiang Yu is probably the closest Chinese equivalent to individuals like Napoleon or Charles XII of Sweden.While he might be defeated by in some battles,I don't think it's conceivable that he will lose so badly to nomads that even Pengcheng itself could be sacked.Unlike fighting against Liu Bang,this is a fight against barbarians.People would have been far less willing to surrender to Modu than Liu Bang.I am also doubtful that the Xiongnu could have launched a campaign long enough to take city after city.What really caused Xiang Yu to lose in OTL wasn't because of his military skills,but because he's a lousy politician.
 
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I'm not sure. Modu always seemed like a would-be conqueror given that his military campaigns were never really just raiding campaigns and that he was, for all intents and purposes, an empire builder.
Per the classification of nomadic empires presented by Di Cosmo, the Xiongnu were a tribute empire, only able to extort tribute from settled neighbors. The next stage in the evolution of nomadic empires would occur only in the 6th century AD, with the rise of the Turks, etc.
 
The exact passage is this:“追北至平城,为胡所围,七日不得通。高帝使使厚遗阏氏,冒顿开围一角。高帝出欲驰,婴固徐行,弩皆持满外向,卒得脱。益食婴细阳千户。复以太仆从击胡骑句 注北,大破之。以太仆击胡骑平城南,三陷陈,功为多,赐所夺邑五百户。”

My Chinese isn't exactly top notch,but I think I can provide a rough translation.

After pursuing north to the city of Ping,Liu Bang was surrounded by the barbarians for seven days.Liu Bang then bribed Modu's wife to persuade him to let him go.Liu Bang left with Xiahou Ying accompanying him,with the troops pointing their crossbow outwards to cover the escape.Xiahou Ying was then granted an extra one thousand households as part of his fief.Subsequently,the Minister Coachman(Xiahou Ying's official position in government) struck north and defeated the barbarians decisively. By defeating the barbarians in the south of Ping City,the Minister Coachman was granted an extra five hundred households as part of his fief.

All I can say is that it is considered part of the Battle of Baideng it is the only thing I can guess is the case and probably wasn't that big an actual fight between the Xiongnu and his forces or it would be more referenced beyond the Shiji.


I have not heard about Modu massing a force of 300,000 skilled crossbowmen.Crafting such a large amount of crossbows would probably require a level of sophistication that Xiongnus might not apprehend.As for Dai and Yan,those are border regions.If he could have conquered those regions,why couldn't he hold them?
There's a massive difference between invading those regions and capturing them.For example,during the Hundred Years' War,the English frequently launched invasions into France that were able to pillage large regions of France but were generally unable to capture any castles,towns or cities(see for chevauchee for more information). While Xiangyu most likely do not have a large cavalry force,nor the numbers Liu Bang might command,it is still worthy to note that Xiang Yu is probably the closest Chinese equivalent to individuals like Napoleon.While he might be defeated by in some battles,I don't think it's conceivable that he will lose so badly that even Pengcheng itself could be sacked.

Yeah I was just wondering about the crossbowmen. But here's the thing Modu did hold the regions of Dai and Yan see the map I linked, that isn't all the Ordos Region and those regions were held by the Xiongnu until the 120s when the Han launched their war against the Xiongnu under Emperor Wu. Like you say there is a difference between invading regions and capturing them but guess what, the English did hold castles and towns and cities in France as shown by Henry VI who was crowned in Paris.

1027px-100_Years_War_France_1435.svg.png


English territories in France in 1415. (For more see Angevin Empire). Xiang Yu is nothing like Napoleon and nowhere near his level of skill militarily because as I keep saying Xiang Yu is not going to be a great general when he ignores the most important part of warfare, logistics. The sources I work from agree that Xiang Yu was a capable general but he ignored logistics and messed up far too often politically. Reading up on Julu I realised something, there was no strategy to it from Xiang Yu because he destroyed half his army's supplies and told them to go fight if they didn't want to starve to death. Gaius Marius did something similar but when he told his soldiers that if they wanted to get water they would have to fight the Celts for it, he followed up by flanking and surrounding the Celts. The Chinese had some amazing generals: Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang, Sun Tzu, Guo Ziyi etc. all of whom are better generals than Xiang Yu and definitely more deserving of a comparison to Napoleon. Is it conceivable that he could lose badly enough that Pengcheng could be sacked? Of course it is!


Per the classification of nomadic empires presented by Di Cosmo, the Xiongnu were a tribute empire, only able to extort tribute from settled neighbors. The next stage in the evolution of nomadic empires would occur only in the 6th century AD, with the rise of the Turks, etc.

Huh. Interesting. That was sort of where I was going anyway as you'll see but... still interesting. Thanks.
 
All I can say is that it is considered part of the Battle of Baideng it is the only thing I can guess is the case and probably wasn't that big an actual fight between the Xiongnu and his forces or it would be more referenced beyond the Shiji.




Yeah I was just wondering about the crossbowmen. But here's the thing Modu did hold the regions of Dai and Yan see the map I linked, that isn't all the Ordos Region and those regions were held by the Xiongnu until the 120s when the Han launched their war against the Xiongnu under Emperor Wu.
I checked your map.Dai and Yan were not included.In case you haven't realized,the fief of Emperor Wu's grandfather(Emperor Wen) before he became emperor was Dai.Yan was also give as a fief to the eighth son of Liu Bang and after this son was killed by Lu Zhi,it was granted to her great nephew.So your facts are clearly wrong.

Like you say there is a difference between invading regions and capturing them but guess what, the English did hold castles and towns and cities in France as shown by Henry VI who was crowned in Paris.

1027px-100_Years_War_France_1435.svg.png



English territories in France in 1415. (For more see Angevin Empire).

That's only after they started to play the political game after Agincourt with the King of France being persuaded to disinherit his son and make the King of England(his son in law) king instead.It is worthwhile to note that immediately after Agincourt,the English packed their bags and went home instead of conquering any land.It's only after the returned the next year that after some negotiations,they were able to persuade the King of France(who was insane) and the Duke of Burgundy(who was a rival of the crown prince) to make Henry IV the next King of France.


Xiang Yu is nothing like Napoleon and nowhere near his level of skill militarily because as I keep saying Xiang Yu is not going to be a great general when he ignores the most important part of warfare, logistics. The sources I work from agree that Xiang Yu was a capable general but he ignored logistics and messed up far too often politically. Reading up on Julu I realised something, there was no strategy to it from Xiang Yu because he destroyed half his army's supplies and told them to go fight if they didn't want to starve to death. Gaius Marius did something similar but when he told his soldiers that if they wanted to get water they would have to fight the Celts for it, he followed up by flanking and surrounding the Celts. The Chinese had some amazing generals: Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang, Sun Tzu, Guo Ziyi etc. all of whom are better generals than Xiang Yu and definitely more deserving of a comparison to Napoleon. Is it conceivable that he could lose badly enough that Pengcheng could be sacked? Of course it is!




Huh. Interesting. That was sort of where I was going anyway as you'll see but... still interesting. Thanks.
A lot of great generals messes up logistics.See how Napoleon and Charles XII fucked up their invasion of Russia for more information.Destroying your supplies and tell your soldiers to fight to death is a standard practice preached by Chinese military manuals.It's actually one of thirty-six stratagems supposedly written by Zhuge Liang.Even Han Xin himself did something similar when he fought Zhang Han.I also told you,you can't destroy armies several or ten times larger than you own unless either you are a military genius or your enemies' command is hilariously botched.The fact that Xiang Yu was able to repeatedly demolish armies much larger than his shows that he's a military genius.
 
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