Kingdom of Poland 1916

Okay I can agree with the point that you made. How about relocating the Poles and germans in the area with land being swapped between the two ethnic groups. The Poles would thus gain most of the land, no germans would be in Poland and the Germans would continue to have the land connection to East Prussia. While no one might be 100% happy with it I am sure that the Poles and Germans could live with it without it being a cause for future war between the two.
About White Russia and the Ukraine I think that you are missing a Key point historicly the Poles have a great attachment to both areas. They ruled the Ukraine at one point and probably would like to either control it or have it in hands that might be friendly to Poland. The Polish military also wanted Poland to have far more resources and a greater buffer zone with its eastern neighbor.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Yes, Belarus and Ukraine were seen as important, but not as important as Poznan that has always been considered a part of the Polish heartland. It would be like having the Germans choose between Bavaria and Bohemia, or having America choose between California and the Philippines. If the Poles were able to keep Poznan then they'd turn east, otherwise they wouldn't want to turn attention away from their "occupied homeland". About moving people, it wouldn't work, most people would be offended if they were forced to move from their ancestral lands. And Poznan Germans in Germany demanding a return of their ancestral homes, as well as West Prussian and Silesian Poles in Poland crying about restoration of the Piast borders, and the inhuman policies of Germany would not make things better.
 
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But this is an Alternative reality. One of the factors that was seen after WW2 was the massive relocation of Population. The Post war Polish government expelled all of the Germans from their ancestoral homes without any compensation and the same thing happen in Czechoslovkia,Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary. My proposal would at least be more humane allowing for the tradinding of lands and or monetary compensation.
I get it that Pozen is a key question for the Poles and something that would need to be settled if relations were to improve between the two countries but you got to be willing to accept the fact that not all -100% of the land claimed by Poles might be in the new Polish state. What if it was only 90%.
It is also likely that if the problem with Poland was solved that it would undermine the chances of Hitler coming to power. We might see a constitutional Monarchy or a more moderate German governement. The Center -right parties of the Imperial era might have had a chance to grow back thus seeing the Chrisain Democrats and the Catholic Party once again as players in the game.
 

yourworstnightmare

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The forceful removal of Germans was necessary after WW2, and was seen a just due to German war crimes. Such crimes had not happened in WW1, and the idea to remove people from their homes by force was against the Wilson's peace principles. No, we'd still have Germans in Poland and Poles in Germany.

I think that if Germany was able to hold on to West Prussia, Danzig and Polish Silesia Hitler might be butterflied away. (Read might). But what kind of government Germany would get is hard to tell; Prussian? Nationalist? Centrist? Social Democrat? Communist? There were many alternatives.
 
If we are going to discuss Wilson's principles then one of the key factors was self determination. According to that the German populated areas of Czechoslovkia should not have happen -either they should have been part of Germany or Austria, Tyrol should have remained part of Austria, Transalvania should have been split along ethnic lines, etc. Wilson violated his own principles by going along with the allies and awarding these lands to people that should not have received them.
What happen after WWII was the whole scale explusion of a people for the fact that they were german or even Polish. Was it right-probably not did it solve the problem once and for all probably yes.
I would by you arguement about giving the Posen territory to Poland but no Polish Corridor and no additional land claims.
 
-3- How much WORSE would a souring of relations between Germany and Poland actually be than OTL ? They were never likely to be great friends, and if Posen is simply added to existing losses, Berlin will be just as angry, only with even more cause

Posen was the minimal loss.

Wait a minute, what Kingdom of Ukraine?? Don't mix your timelines now?? With a Polish national kingdom, the Poles would definitely go for East Galizia, which would be the stronghold for Habsburg monarchist forces. Without East Galizia there would not be a Ukrainian kingdom, so a strong Poland means no Kingdom of Ukraine (a very strong Poland could of course conquer the Ukraine and insert whichever ruler they want later).

The Hetmanate, which did not include any part of Galicia since it was an ally of A-H.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Any Ukrianian nation; Hetmanate or republic would probably be in Poland's best interest to preserve, the question is; would they have that capacity.

Yes, my argument was Poznan to Poland, while Germany would get Danzig, Silesia and West Prussia. That would mean Germany would have a land connection to East Prussia. There would still be Germans in Poland and Poles in Germany, that's a fact that could not be changed. Neither nation would be completely satisfied, but neither would go crazy and start a war.
 
I now consider the question of Pozan closed and the borders in the west settled.
As to a Ukraian Kingdom I believe that I have touched on this matter in a posting about The Kingdom of the Ukraine. Stefan's soon, nicknamed "the Red Prince" was a great proponet of the Ukrainian people. He had his supporters in the Austro-Hungarian Empire Ukrainian section and in parts of the Western Ukraine. He had the contacts and support (including the only well trained army . It would seem that perhaps the Kingdom of Poland might support him.
 

yourworstnightmare

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If his supprt base was East Galizia as IRL they would not support him. Poland considered East Galizia their territory, and it was a quite easy landgrab. Still Ukrainian governments fighting the reds (based in Kiev) would probably be supported. Both the Hetmanate and a republican government could be beneficial for Poland to preserve, as well as a Belarussian governmnet, however Poland need to be strengthened and the Red Army weakened if Poland want more territory.
 
According to a recent book Stefan's son did enjoy support in the western part of the Ukraine proper(Russian). As codition began to fall apart more of the Ukrainian leadership turned to him to help. So ther is a possibility that something might have worked out with Polish help.
 
While tensions with Germany had eased over the years as a result of the border settlement. Poland had been busy dealing with its two western neighbors- Belorussia and the Kingdom of the Ukraine. The Poles had to an extent dominated both countries and as a result Poland had gained in trade and wealth. This wealth had allowed the Kingdom of Poland to improve its military situtation much more so than in OTL. The Polish army had received the TP-7 more than a year earlier and production had been stepped up.

The Polish Military advisory mission to the Kingdom of the Ukraine had been training the Ukrainian Army since the Russian Civil War and the Soviet-Polish War. The Ukrainian army had acquired tanks from both the British ,Poles and even the Czechs. In addition there were some left over WW1 french FT-17 tanks and British tanks from the same war. The Ukrainians as a result had the following- 60-FT-17s, 69 British late WW1 tanks, 99 Vickers A and 65 Vickers E models and finally 45 Czech T-35 tanks.. The Polish govt had also provided some of the earlier TP tanks armed with 2-MG turrets. The Ukrainian army had gotten better over time King Stefan's son had seen to that using the Austro-Hungarian Ukrainian Legion as a training unit. It had grown and was considered quite well armed and trained. It was in addition both a military force and a political factor since it consisted of more than 1/3 of the entire army ( which totaled more than 18 full strength divisions plus 9 brigades).

While there were reserves they were not as well equipprd or trained.

Meanwile the Red army was assembling in the greatest numbers since the Russian Civil War. Several fronts had assembled and it was estimated that the Red army had assembled more than 69 Rifle divisions,12 Cavaltry divisions and more than 40 tank battalioms. More were assembling for what Comrade Stalin hope would be the retoration of the Soviet 's borders to what they should have been.

Comrade Stalin wanted nothing less than revenge fro what the Poles and the Ukraians had done to him.
 
The Kingdom of Poland had been undertaking a military modenization program since 1934, It had as a result of improvements in trade with its two eastern neighbors been abe to afford to build more of its TP7 tanks. The 10th Motorized Cavalry Bde had been expanded to a full strenght division. In addition 5 more cavalry brigades had been converted.

The Polish armament industry was benifiting from selling arms to the Ukraine.
 
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