Kingdom of Moray

Anyway for the Kingdom of Moray to remain separate from Scotland or at least only loosely under control and retain their own Gaelic line of kings?

If it is possible could the Moravians keep their own identity into modern day?
 
Have the Kingdom of Alba conquered by Northumbria and then absorbed into England? Possibly with Dal Riada and Galloway remaining separate as well.
 
Have the Kingdom of Alba conquered by Northumbria and then absorbed into England? Possibly with Dal Riada and Galloway remaining separate as well.


I don't think it needs to be that drastic. I can imagine the kings of Moray being much like the lord of the isles in autonomy with their power and the Grampians helping them defend against Scotland. Not sure if it is eventually inevitable for Moray to fall once the Normans arrived or not.
 
Two Lords of Moray were already Kings of Scotland: MacBeth and Lulach.

Given the proper POD, a continuous line of Moray kings can be established (more likely under MacBeth; Lulach was apparently somewhat dimwitted, and was assassinated by his own nobles).
 
Two Lords of Moray were already Kings of Scotland: MacBeth and Lulach.

Given the proper POD, a continuous line of Moray kings can be established (more likely under MacBeth; Lulach was apparently somewhat dimwitted, and was assassinated by his own nobles).

I suppose the next stage might with a large war with England like the Wars of Scottish Independence where the Scottish kings/others won't have the north to fall back on and probably will have the kings of Moray as their enemies in such a war.
 
I suppose the next stage might with a large war with England like the Wars of Scottish Independence where the Scottish kings/others won't have the north to fall back on and probably will have the kings of Moray as their enemies in such a war.

Well I was thinking that a line of Moray lords could become Kings of Scotland.

Sure, Moray isn't as rich or fertile as Alba and the Lowlands, but it's sure as hell more easily defensible. In any conflict with England, Moray would be a great "fortress land", as I'd call it, to fall back on. Barely any locals would like to fraternize with the dastardly, raping English; with no guides, the English have no hopes of avoiding slaughter and ambush in the hills.

However, the Moray kings would probably have a tougher time keeping a hold on their vassals; Alba was a much more centralized and culturally general location.
 
Well I was thinking that a line of Moray lords could become Kings of Scotland.

Sure, Moray isn't as rich or fertile as Alba and the Lowlands, but it's sure as hell more easily defensible. In any conflict with England, Moray would be a great "fortress land", as I'd call it, to fall back on. Barely any locals would like to fraternize with the dastardly, raping English; with no guides, the English have no hopes of avoiding slaughter and ambush in the hills.

However, the Moray kings would probably have a tougher time keeping a hold on their vassals; Alba was a much more centralized and culturally general location.


Perhaps the Moravian king could come to a deal with England where he gets the Scottish crown? I imagine such deals would be fairly common unless the Mormaers of Moray loose interest in Scotland or come under a different dynasty. Even if he does get it, as you said, he will have a hard time. Especially if the allot of the lords of Scotland are still Normans.
 
Perhaps the Moravian king could come to a deal with England where he gets the Scottish crown? I imagine such deals would be fairly common unless the Mormaers of Moray loose interest in Scotland or come under a different dynasty. Even if he does get it, as you said, he will have a hard time. Especially if the allot of the lords of Scotland are still Normans.

If the Moray Kings are successful, there will be no Norman lords in Scotland.

Also, I think we're not on the same page about the meaning of "Moravian".
 
If the Moray Kings are successful, there will be no Norman lords in Scotland.

Also, I think we're not on the same page about the meaning of "Moravian".


Probably and Moravian is the only plural i can think of for Moray, it was certainly their Latin name at least.

What if Malcolm son of Alexander I with his ally Oengus win the Battle of Stracathro in 1135, but David is there as well and is killed. Oengus then puts Malcolm on the throne and gives himself a great deal of control over his own affairs. Henry I doesn't back up David's sons claim, or at least doesn't put much into it. Either way Henry dies the same year and The Anarchy beggings withdrawing much English interest in the region. David's Principality of Cumbrians is taken by Scotland leaving David's descendents as landowners in England.
 
Probably and Moravian is the only plural i can think of for Moray, it was certainly their Latin name at least.

What if Malcolm son of Alexander I with his ally Oengus win the Battle of Stracathro in 1135, but David is there as well and is killed. Oengus then puts Malcolm on the throne and gives himself a great deal of control over his own affairs. Henry I doesn't back up David's sons claim, or at least doesn't put much into it. Either way Henry dies the same year and The Anarchy beggings withdrawing much English interest in the region. David's Principality of Cumbrians is taken by Scotland leaving David's descendents as landowners in England.

Ah, I see you're right about the Moravian thing. I do believe the use of "Moravian" for the area in Central Europe is more common, but at least now I know this other use of it.

Interesting POD, did not know of it. Presumably this "Constable Edward" kept aloof of the Anarchy (which was mostly fought in south-central England) and kept peace in Scotland; with this POD, we see the very interesting possibility of Malcolm turning to invade England after settling himself on the throne of Scotland!
This might either unite the English until support is almost completely dropped for Matilda or Stephen, or create a 3-way war (Malcolm vs. Matilda vs. Stephen). I'm sure that Malcolm would want a bit of land in Northumbria, and English weakness on the Welsh front.

How about combining this with a POD of mine? After Stephen is captured, Matilda's three sons (Henry II and his brothers) die of illness or accident. With no other viable claimant, her bastard brother Robert of Gloucester (son of Henry I) becomes a popular and proven king. He's a good general and has a nice power base in England. Now he faces off with Malcolm.
 
Ah, I see you're right about the Moravian thing. I do believe the use of "Moravian" for the area in Central Europe is more common, but at least now I know this other use of it.

Interesting POD, did not know of it. Presumably this "Constable Edward" kept aloof of the Anarchy (which was mostly fought in south-central England) and kept peace in Scotland; with this POD, we see the very interesting possibility of Malcolm turning to invade England after settling himself on the throne of Scotland!
This might either unite the English until support is almost completely dropped for Matilda or Stephen, or create a 3-way war (Malcolm vs. Matilda vs. Stephen). I'm sure that Malcolm would want a bit of land in Northumbria, and English weakness on the Welsh front.

How about combining this with a POD of mine? After Stephen is captured, Matilda's three sons (Henry II and his brothers) die of illness or accident. With no other viable claimant, her bastard brother Robert of Gloucester (son of Henry I) becomes a popular and proven king. He's a good general and has a nice power base in England. Now he faces off with Malcolm.

Certainly more common in Central Europe, i live in the modern county of Moray and there is no plural for "people of Moray".

David's Principality of Cumbrians may be under quite a bit of dispute between Malcolm and whoever wants to support Davids son, but part of a larger Scottish English war. Interestingly i think the Principality of Cumbria would give English kings an excuse to claim allot of southern Scotland in the name of one of Davids decedents. When it comes to future regional identity i suppose it is interesting to note that "Scotia" might still only refer to Perthshire, Angus like area.

Hmm yes, Malcolms reign would be dominated by The Anarchy. He would go to war with England for 2 reasons, border disputes and whoever is supporting Davids son. I imagine Davids son would go to Robert of Gloucester's side and try and get his throne once The Anarchy was over. Within a few years of Henry II coronation i think Malcolm would of died however leaving the throne to a son which i will name Alexander. I think Alexander would be middle aged and a well rounded king overall.

I don't think Alexander could hold up against Henry II, he could fall back on the Moravians but lets say the king of Moray is wise and refuses to help Alexander, maybe even helps David's son. So Alexander becomes the king of Morays liege and has his own little "Norman revolution" in the Lowlands. He tries to get Moray later, but without English support. The Moravians lead the heavy Scots army into rough terrain and through some clever tactics defeat the Scots army killing David's son.

We will say David's son has a young son of his own at this time and some daughters. The heir to Scotland dies of illness a year or so after the Scots defeat. With no apparent heir the Norman lords ask Henry II to look into the matter. This is where i become less sure and i kind of want to destroy the king of Scotland title at this point. The title Prince of Cumbrians would of been held by the heir apparent to the Scottish throne so i wonder if Henry II might award the title to one of David's sons bastards or a Scottish lord of his choice. At the same time he destroys the title King of Scots putting the Prince of Cumbrians as head. As for making the Prince of Cumbrians the top title over king has to do with rivalries as well, mainly if Henry picks one of the Scottish nobles. A prince is of course a lower rank than a king so perhaps less envy from other nobles.

Either way this Prince of Cumbrians is unofficially subject to the king of England and serves as a northern buffer. The kings of Moray might claim to be the king of Scots but it won't mean much, if anything Moray becomes the more important title. So Scotland is destroyed as any future country, would be interesting if southern Scotland became Cumbria in name.
 
Top