Kingdom of Germany

Supose that somehow the Kingdom of Germany does not evolve into the Holy Roman Empire, and thus not developing into small states. How would it be like? What would the capital be? Could it survive both France and Poland?
 
Supose that somehow the Kingdom of Germany does not evolve into the Holy Roman Empire, and thus not developing into small states. How would it be like? What would the capital be? Could it survive both France and Poland?
There never was a kingdom of Germany. There was the Eastern Frankish Kingdom, and the only thing that really sets it apart from the HRE is its name.
 
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Susano

Banned
Thats not true. At all. The East Frankish Empire did not evolve straight to the HRE. In fact, the first German King to receive the Impeiral Dignity was Otto I the Great, a century after Charlemagne. And even then not all German Kings were croned HRE, and even those who were retained the title of German King (Holy Roman Emperor, Forever August, King of Germany and Italy, etc.). And indeed, the structure of the HRE was thus that it was based on a personal union between the Kingdoms of Germany and Italy, later on of Germany, Italy and Arelat (Burgundy). That structure quickly became neglected, but that was the theoretical buildup. And it was only starting with the 15th century that the two titles fully fused, and that all German rulers would be HREmperors.

And of course, to rub it in and for that matter, whats now the Netherlands was part of the German Kingdom ;)
 
Thats not true. At all. The East Frankish Empire did not evolve straight to the HRE. In fact, the first German King to receive the Impeiral Dignity was Otto I the Great, a century after Charlemagne. And even then not all German Kings were croned HRE, and even those who were retained the title of German King (Holy Roman Emperor, Forever August, King of Germany and Italy, etc.). And indeed, the structure of the HRE was thus that it was based on a personal union between the Kingdoms of Germany and Italy, later on of Germany, Italy and Arelat (Burgundy). That structure quickly became neglected, but that was the theoretical buildup. And it was only starting with the 15th century that the two titles fully fused, and that all German rulers would be HREmperors.

And of course, to rub it in and for that matter, whats now the Netherlands was part of the German Kingdom ;)
Point taken. I'll retreat into my windmill and read some more books on the matter.
 
Supose that somehow the Kingdom of Germany does not evolve into the Holy Roman Empire, and thus not developing into small states. How would it be like? What would the capital be? Could it survive both France and Poland?

Before becoming the Emperor, Otto I was more intent on getting Lotharingia and maybe West Francia. He did launch an invasion at some point (in the 940s or 950s), but I think someone mediated the conflict.

Another interesting thing: if Otto stays out of Italy, then Berengar and Adalbert still rule Italy. They were very unpopular though, so I wounder how long it would take for the nobles to overthrow the Ivreans. Maybe they would invite the Burgundians back again.
 
Thats not true. At all. The East Frankish Empire did not evolve straight to the HRE. In fact, the first German King to receive the Impeiral Dignity was Otto I the Great, a century after Charlemagne.

I don't remember the details, but didn't the Imperial title pass around in various Italian and Burgundian duchies and kingdoms before lapsing a few decades prior to Otto?
 

Susano

Banned
I don't remember the details, but didn't the Imperial title pass around in various Italian and Burgundian duchies and kingdoms before lapsing a few decades prior to Otto?

Pretty much, yes. So, before his coronation, Otto simply called himself... uh, Im not quite sure actuall wether it was King of Germany, King of Germans* or German King, but it was one of those ;)

*While we associate this form with modern monarchies (King of the Belgians, for example), it was quite popular around that time, too. Basically all German stem dukes in Germany had the form of "Duke of the Saxons", "Duke of the Swabians", "Duke of the Bavarians", etc...
 
Supose that somehow the Kingdom of Germany does not evolve into the Holy Roman Empire, and thus not developing into small states. How would it be like? What would the capital be? Could it survive both France and Poland?
It'd likely be much like France was- and retain a more national quality. If the King doesn't reach for the Imperial dignity, and doesn't claim the universality of his rule and empire, the Ottonian kingdom would retain the particular Germanic nature and style. In such a world, German national consciousness is likely to develop earlier than it did.
But, being a Germanic state, the Kingdom would probably maintain a tradition of federalism and the equality of its citizens, with the King considering himself more of a first among equals rather than a supreme Imperial ruler.

There never was a kingdom of Germany. There was the Eastern Frankish Kingdom, and the only thing that really sets it apart from the HRE is its name.
East Frankish Kingdom ceased being called that when the Saxon dynasty became its Kings. Henry the Fowler called himself King of the Germans, and disdained the idea of his kingdom being completely Frankish or Franconian.
 
It'd likely be much like France was- and retain a more national quality. If the King doesn't reach for the Imperial dignity, and doesn't claim the universality of his rule and empire, the Ottonian kingdom would retain the particular Germanic nature and style. In such a world, German national consciousness is likely to develop earlier than it did.
But, being a Germanic state, the Kingdom would probably maintain a tradition of federalism and the equality of its citizens, with the King considering himself more of a first among equals rather than a supreme Imperial ruler.


Or, Germanics being Germanics, the stem duchies will revolt against attempts to centralize, and in this case you could see the duchies becoming completely independent...
 

Susano

Banned
Or, Germanics being Germanics, the stem duchies will revolt against attempts to centralize, and in this case you could see the duchies becoming completely independent...

That didnt happen IOTL, and there were good structural reasons for that. Basically, it came down that there was a massive flux of dynasties in Germany at that time, not only at the royla level, but also in the Duchies. And basically every Duke wanted to use his Duchy as power base to attain the German (and later Holy Roman) crown. That menat that there constantly was a rebellion somewhere, but it also meant every Duke had a stake in the continued existance of the Kingdom.

It is less likely even to happen ITTL, where the King doesnt ahve to split his attention between Germany and Italy...
 
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