Kingdom of Germany colonies

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

Assuming Germany unifies relatively early on (Hohenstaufens?), what would a kingdom of Germany be able to colonize during the 1500-1900 time frame?

Let's assume that the German kingdom encompasses the western border of the HRE by 1600, a southern border of modern Switzerland and the Austrian portion of the Habsburg monarchy, a northern border of modern Germany, and an eastern border of 1600 Prussia plus Silesia (all of it), Bohemia and Moravia.
That means the Low Countries are in this Germany, so Germany has a strong sea-faring/trade components.
 
Assuming Germany unifies relatively early on (Hohenstaufens?), what would a kingdom of Germany be able to colonize during the 1500-1900 time frame?

Let's assume that the German kingdom encompasses the western border of the HRE by 1600, a southern border of modern Switzerland and the Austrian portion of the Habsburg monarchy, a northern border of modern Germany, and an eastern border of 1600 Prussia plus Silesia (all of it), Bohemia and Moravia.
That means the Low Countries are in this Germany, so Germany has a strong sea-faring/trade components.

You'd probably find that the analogue of the Anglo-Dutch wars would be entirely different.

you might even find this Germany backing the Parliamentarians in the English Civil war.

Seeing the Dutch had a colony in North America it is possible that you'd Germany replacing and or England and France as the rival to Spain and Portugal.
You've probably also butterflied away Napoleon's war on Europe.
A massive Germanic empire like this makes Frances position really bad.

You'd probably also find that with the greater population Dirk Hartog's expedition might lead to and earlier German colonisation of Australia.

Such an entity if it existed would have massive butterflies on who colonises what.
Does Germany share the colonial pie with Spain Portugal, Britain and France or does it replace one of them?
 

Deleted member 1487

Assuming that this Germany gets the Belgian-Dutch colonies of OTL, that would mean Indonesia, South Africa, Congo, at least part of Australia, Surinam, New Amsterdam, parts of Brazil, and various parts of the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_colonial_empire

And perhaps these too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_German_colonies
Africa
Groß Friedrichsburg (in Ghana), 1683–1718
Arguin (in Mauritania), 1685–1721
Whydah (in present Bénin), circa 1700 (this Brandenburg 'colony' was just a minor point of support, a few dwellings at a site co-inhabited by British and Dutch)
[edit]North America
These territories were held briefly under lease or occupation during the early European colonizations of the New World.

Saint Thomas. Leased by Brandenburg from the Danish West India Company, 1685–1720.
Island of Crabs (Krabbeninsel in German) (Caribbean, now US), Brandenburg annexation in the Danish West Indies, 1689–1693
Tertholen (Caribbean), 1696. Occupation.


These were colonies of the Habsburg Monarchy (part of the Holy Roman Empire realm), since 1804 Austrian Empire, since 1867 Austria-Hungary.

Banquibazar & Cabelon (1719/23-1744/50)[1]
Nicobar islands (1778-1783)[2]
Tientsin concession (1901-1917)

Africa
The following were German African protectorates.

German colonies in Africa, 1884-1920
German East Africa (Deutsch-Ostafrika):
Tanganyika. In 1922 became a League of Nations mandate under the United Kingdom. In 1961 became independent and in 1964 joined with former British protectorate of the sultanate of Zanzibar to form present-day Tanzania
Ruanda-Urundi (1885–1917) - present-day Rwanda and Burundi
Wituland (1885–1890) - since 1890 in Kenya
Kionga Triangle - since 1920 (earlier occupied) in Portuguese Mozambique
German South West Africa (Deutsch-Südwestafrika) - present-day Namibia (except then-British Walvis Bay) and part of Botswana (Südrand des Caprivi-Zipfels)
German West Africa (Deutsch-Westafrika) - existed as one unit only for two or three years, then split into two colonies due to distances:
Kamerun(1884–1914) - after World War I, separated into a British part, Cameroons, and a French Cameroun, which became present Cameroon. The British part was later split in half, with one part joining Nigeria and the other Cameroon. (Kamerun, Nigeria-Ostteil, Tschad-Südwestteil, Zentralafrikanische Republik-Westteil, Republik Kongo-Nordostteil, Gabun-Nordteil)
Togoland (1884–1914) - after World War I it separated into two parts: a British part (Ghana-Westteil), which joined Ghana, and a French one, which became Togo

[edit]Pacific
These were German colonies in the Pacific.

German colonies in southern Pacific: Kaiserwilhelmsland and the Bismarck Archipelago (Solomon Islands, Marshall Islands, Caroline Islands)
German New Guinea (Deutsch-Neuguinea) (1884–1914)
Kaiser-Wilhelmsland
Bismarck Archipelago (Bismarck-Archipel)
German Solomon Islands or Northern Solomon Islands (Salomonen or Nördliche Salomon-Inseln) (1885–1899)
Bougainville Island (Bougainville-Insel) (1888–1919)
Nauru (1888–1919)
Marshall Islands (Marschall-Inseln) (1885–1919)
Mariana Islands (Marianen) (1899–1919) - present-day Northern Mariana Islands
Caroline Islands (Karolinen) (1899–1919) - present-day Federated States of Micronesia and Palau
German Samoa (Deutsch-Samoa) (1899–1914) - present-day Samoa

China
These are German concessions in China leased to it by the Qing Dynasty.

Jiaozhou Bay concession (Deutsch-Kiautschou) (1898-1914)
Chefoo (190?-1918)
[edit]Americas
The German Caribbean was colonised briefly in the nineteenth century.
 

Deleted member 1487

What about the cumulative effect of all of these colonies under the control of such a massive Central European nation? Economically much of the territory would be seriously valuable to a major economy, not to mention very difficult for Britain or France to grab, like Britain did with South Africa.
 
What about the cumulative effect of all of these colonies under the control of such a massive Central European nation? Economically much of the territory would be seriously valuable to a major economy, not to mention very difficult for Britain or France to grab, like Britain did with South Africa.

The tricky part is that while Germany on land is considerably more powerful than the Netherlands, Germany at sea may or may not be.

So long as its limited by the Dutch coast, the factors that limited the Dutch navy there will still apply even with ten times the population of the Netherlands.
 
The tricky part is that while Germany on land is considerably more powerful than the Netherlands, Germany at sea may or may not be.

So long as its limited by the Dutch coast, the factors that limited the Dutch navy there will still apply even with ten times the population of the Netherlands.

Agreed, the Dutch colonial empire were established by the investors/mercants. Not by nobles. Kingdom of Germany will have a lot of enemies on there borders. Ottomans,Poland,Sweden,France and Engeland.

They may well limited intrest in colonies. Let's not forget about possible religious wars that could happen. Ottomans at there Eastern-southern borders, Protestants vs Catholic within the Kingdom.

People forget that most of the Dutch republic early succes is that it is more stable than most of it's neighbors. A weak divided Germany that is the battleground of Europe, France with it's not so succesfull constant expansionist wars. Spain with it's colonies and bad goverments, Engeland having internal en external problems.

The Dutch VOC and WIC was the first companies with shareholders, banking itself is a Dutch invention. This could all be butterflied away if the Netherlands is just a province within the German Kingdom.

Most of the Dutch succes with trade was the non interfering within other peoples cultures. They didn't enforce culture or language on Natives, unlike most Europeanen powers. And so where easier traders.

While the Dutch still used more or less the divide and conquer way like the rest, there way was more succesfull.

While an larger Kingdom does mean more resources if it is well managed atleast. It could be that colonies of Germany worse of than otl dutch colonies.

France was the in that time the strongest nation in Europe, but they were always ousted eventuelly out of there colonies by other nations.
 
Agreed, the Dutch colonial empire were established by the investors/mercants. Not by nobles. Kingdom of Germany will have a lot of enemies on there borders. Ottomans,Poland,Sweden,France and Engeland.

They may well limited intrest in colonies. Let's not forget about possible religious wars that could happen. Ottomans at there Eastern-southern borders, Protestants vs Catholic within the Kingdom.

People forget that most of the Dutch republic early succes is that it is more stable than most of it's neighbors. A weak divided Germany that is the battleground of Europe, France with it's not so succesfull constant expansionist wars. Spain with it's colonies and bad goverments, Engeland having internal en external problems.

The Dutch VOC and WIC was the first companies with shareholders, banking itself is a Dutch invention. This could all be butterflied away if the Netherlands is just a province within the German Kingdom.

Most of the Dutch succes with trade was the non interfering within other peoples cultures. They didn't enforce culture or language on Natives, unlike most Europeanen powers. And so where easier traders.

While the Dutch still used more or less the divide and conquer way like the rest, there way was more succesfull.

While an larger Kingdom does mean more resources if it is well managed atleast. It could be that colonies of Germany worse of than otl dutch colonies.

France was the in that time the strongest nation in Europe, but they were always ousted eventuelly out of there colonies by other nations.

It's not even that, true though all of the above is. The winds won't be blowingly differently and the limits on the draft of warships aren't increasing, so even if the OTL Dutch approach is taken, the amount of additional muscle the Germans can actually put behind this isn't as great as it seems.
 

Deleted member 1487

How do you 'redirect" them?

By setting up German colonies that have acceptable weather:
South Africa, Oceania, North America (if German colonies there).
Also the Eastern German border and Eastern Europe, as Germany treated it in the middle ages as a 'wild east' set for their colonization.
 
By setting up German colonies that have acceptable weather:
South Africa, Oceania, North America (if German colonies there).
Also the Eastern German border and Eastern Europe, as Germany treated it in the middle ages as a 'wild east' set for their colonization.

I imagine the course of German immigration would be different in a timeline where Germany is setting up such colonies to begin with though.

I mean, you won't have the '48ers, for instance.
 

Deleted member 1487

I imagine the course of German immigration would be different in a timeline where Germany is setting up such colonies to begin with though.

I mean, you won't have the '48ers, for instance.

Not with a POD in the 11th-12th century.
 
Not with a POD in the 11th-12th century.

Which will greatly influence how much Germans see any interest in moving abroad compared to OTL, instead of simply being able to take the OTL immigrants - even just in terms of when and how many and put them in German colonies.

Germany is quite large in area, so there are hardly dire population pressures.

Doesn't mean there won't be other reasons - but they need to be elaborated on.
 

Deleted member 1487

Which will greatly influence how much Germans see any interest in moving abroad compared to OTL, instead of simply being able to take the OTL immigrants - even just in terms of when and how many and put them in German colonies.

Germany is quite large in area, so there are hardly dire population pressures.

Doesn't mean there won't be other reasons - but they need to be elaborated on.

Of course with a unified Germany with the territory of the HRE minus Italy there were population pressures to move east, because of 'crowding' by medieval standards in the 'core' territories in the Lowlands and Rhein area, which IOTL touched off the Ostsiedlung. The Germans of the 16th century might view the concept of population pressure differently than we do in the 21st, especially as food production is much more plentiful per acre now. Also food production in Europe was not what it was by the 17th century when tubers were introduced to Europe. Of course a unified Germany also will avoid the very costly wars of OTL that devastated German populations and lands from the 1400s-1950.

But IOTL it wasn't population pressures in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries that drove colonization, but economic pressures and desire for personal gain, which I imagine will be the pressures here. Trade routes and trade goods will be the driver of empire as per OTL IMHO.

By the 18th, 19th, and perhaps 20th centuries the pressures will start being population, but more desire for raw materials and markets for goods. And prestige. I'm curious as to whether there would be a push for an independent North American nation ITTL, or whether the colonies would stay loyal to their respective crowns with more competition between Germany and Britain (or France potentially). South America might be opened up against Spain's will with the Habsburgs being butterflied away, but Spain might also be stronger without spending all of their gold gained in Mexico on religious wars in Central Europe.
 

Deleted member 1487

So what would continental conflict look like with a strong German kingdom dominating Central Europe and expanding globally for markets and resources in the Age of Exploration and Enlightenment?
 
So what would continental conflict look like with a strong German kingdom dominating Central Europe and expanding globally for markets and resources in the Age of Exploration and Enlightenment?

Hugely different from OTL.

Depending on what else happens in Europe, possibly unrecognizable.
 

Deleted member 1487

Hugely different from OTL.

Depending on what else happens in Europe, possibly unrecognizable.

I'd imagine that an early united, centralized Germany would be able focus its efforts outward instead of on internal power struggles that plagued the HRE, especially 11th-13th centuries. Plus without Italy to worry about that would remove a major source of conflict, as the Alps were pretty much a check at that time on any threat from the south. That pretty much leaves France, Poland, and Hungary as potential threats. France was still pretty weak politically during the 11th-15th centuries, so could be potentially intervened in and broken up/kept disunited like Germany was by France later on. Poland was also pretty weak compared to Germany and could be colonized and pushed back, especially after the Mongols show up, same with Hungary.

Also a centralized Germany would be able to focus on building up its infrastructure and could focus more on commerce and developing the land and cities without having to be constantly worried about fighting wars internally. Also by focusing on external war the kingdom has a safety valve for its aggressive young men and nobles.
 
One thing to consider is when Germany unifies. If it is after the formation of the VOC in 1602 the odds of a successful colonial empire increases until you reach the 1700s. A unified German Kingdom is going to be a continental power though (obviously), while a butterflied Thirty Years War does leave you with plenty of people for colonial settlement, Germany is going to be very focused on its position in Europe. It's more limited access to the Atlantic compared to other western European nations is going to increase this tendency. That being said, how prominent the Dutch trading class is will influence how this plays out. If Germany unites before the VOC's incorporation then the Dutch merchants will probably be much more subordinated to political and strategic interests close at hand. That's not to say trade won't happen either way, it just makes it unlikely that the German Kingdom will be more successful then the Dutch at colonial empire, and plenty of opportunity for it to be less so.

One interesting thing out of this will be relationships to England. If the German Kingdom does emulate the success of the Dutch in addition to its potentially strong position on the continent, does this make the British Isles tip more to the French and Catholicism? Does it instead shift the balance even more to the side of Protestantism? A united Germany at this time is going to have major religious divisions (one of the reason's for the decentralization and contention within the HRE OTL) so this probably depends if the Habsburgs, or the Protestant rulers are the dominant force behind unification. This could also have interesting repercussions on Protestantism in France.
 
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