King Theodore's Corsica

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Carp, Jun 11, 2017.

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  1. formion Well-Known Member

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    Nov 25, 2011
    This is extremely difficult to achieve... To actually envision France and Europe without Napoleon is a tall order. What about making the Bonaparts to take refuge in France? After all with so many vendettas and instability in Corsica it is not ASB. A young Napoleon would have to find occupation in the army to support himself and his family. Then you have only slightly different Napoleonic Wars.
     
  2. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

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    Jul 19, 2010
    The problem is that Napoleon Bonaparte as we know him is unlikely to be born period.
     
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  3. Historymaster Well-Known Member

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    Mar 18, 2019
    Why? His parents are still there. However, Moray, Massena and Murat were as good as Napoleon, and Moray was ambitious enought for him to play the role.
     
  4. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

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    Jul 19, 2010
    But they aren't.
     
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  5. Historymaster Well-Known Member

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    Mar 18, 2019
    What are you saying exactly? we haven'seen them, but Carp did not explicity butterflied Carlo Maria Buonaparte and Letizia Ramolio out.
     
  6. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    Collegium Vexillarum
    Before we get into another butterflies argument, as I said some 40odd pages ago:
    And a general discussion about butterfly relevance here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  7. Historymaster Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting.
     
  8. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

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    Even assuming that Carlo and Letizia get born in this universe, their entire lives will be notably different. Simply put, they wouldn't be the Carlo and Letizia who produced Napoleon in our world. At best, they'd be a couple of genetically similar individuals with different life stories because their home has been dramatically changed, with their lives being changed along with it. There's no guarantee that they'd even meet in this universe, much less wed.
     
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  9. Historymaster Well-Known Member

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    Mar 18, 2019
    If the author applyes the principle that the only things that changes are the ones directly tied to the PoD (or the ones he wants to change, and can justifiably change), I can't see why Letizia and Carlo Maria can't marry the same. I usually conserve everything I can in my AH unless I have a reason to change; Carlo Maria and Letizia still live in a war-ridden Corsica,struggling for it's freedom; it's enought to keep them close enought to theyr OTL selves . It is all in the hands of the author.
     
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  10. Grand_Panjandrum Nattering Nabob of Negativism

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    Dec 14, 2006
    I would refer you to the initial post of this TL:

     
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  11. jjstraub4 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 28, 2016
    I strongly prefer a Corsica which remains independent and does not get involved in mainland politics too
    Much. Love the idea of independent Corsica in modern day
     
  12. Historymaster Well-Known Member

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    Mar 18, 2019
    Carp himself broke the rule. If he wants he can have hin back, and be conservative. Personally I would.
     
  13. Carp Literally a fish

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    Apr 16, 2014
    [​IMG]

    (Also I'm the one who broke the rule, so I think we can let it slide...)

    No, I have not explicitly butterflied away anyone who was part of Napoleon's family tree. The only one of his ancestors who has been explicitly mentioned is Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte (N's paternal grandfather), who is doing just fine. But it's worth noting that Napoleon's parents were born in 1746 and 1750 and only married in 1764, which is quite a bit past our POD and gives plenty of time for the situation to change. Giovan Geronimo Ramolino, for instance - N's maternal grandfather - was a Genoese officer c. 1743. ITTL he was presumably evacuated to Genoa along with the rest of the garrison when Ajaccio surrendered to the royalists. The Ramolino family was loyal to the Genoese and may not have returned to Corsica at all after the Treaty of Monaco; even if they did, they may no longer be in the same social circle as the Bonaparte clan, which adhered to Theodore after the fall of Ajaccio and presently is one of the leading families of the city (in part because they are related to the Costa family of Theodore's beloved chancellor Sebastiano Costa).

    Moreover, one of the generally-followed rules in this TL is that people born from about 1737 forward aren't the same people as OTL. Some may be born around the same time or have the same names, but they aren't the same people. This hasn't had much visible effect in this TL so far because even now we're only 23 years from the POD; most post-POD people are not old enough to be in positions of influence. So even if Guiseppe Buonaparte has a son and Giovan Ramolino has a daughter and they end up marrying ITTL - which, as mentioned, may be quite unlikely - they will not be the same people as our Carlo and Letizia Buonaparte, and certainly their son(s) won't be the same either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  14. Historymaster Well-Known Member

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    Mar 18, 2019
    Your time-line your rules, I generally keep the people the same, I simply make them doing different things if it is logical.
     
  15. Grand_Panjandrum Nattering Nabob of Negativism

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    Dec 14, 2006
    Well, to be fair, the rule says "thou," not "we," so you can keep mentioning He-Who-Shan't-Be-Named until the mouflon come home.
     
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  16. John Fredrick Parker Donor

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    Los Angeles
    On the whole He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named debate - I’d say it’s all but certain that Letizia was never born TTL, given the altered fate of her parents; naturally, that precludes Carlo Buonaparte marrying her, which means we can safely say at this point Napoleon does not exist. I, at least, think it’s safe to call it at this point.
     
  17. Fearless Leader Donor

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    Central Control, Pottsylvania
    Great update! I am looking forward to both the aftermath of the British victory in Corsica and the effects of it on the broader Seven Years War.

    It will be particularly interesting to see the effects of Wolfe's absence from Canada. His attack on Quebec City which provoked the battle of the Plains of Abraham was quite risky and not something most commanders would pursue.
     
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  18. Anarch King of Dipsodes Overlord of All Thirst

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    The heights of glory, the depths of despair.
    Such as
    • King George III of Great Britain (1738)
    • William Pitt the Younger (1759)
    • Thomas Jefferson (1743)
    • King Louis XVI of France (1754)
    • Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749)
    • Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756)
    • Emperor Joseph II (1741)
    • Tsar Paul I of Russia (1754)
    And millions of others.
     
  19. John Fredrick Parker Donor

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    May 22, 2010
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    Los Angeles
    My rule of thumb, for the purpose of containing butterflies, would be that if an individuals parents were already together at the time of the PoD, or are no less likely together than OTL, then its generally safe to assume they still give birth to an individual with the same genetic makeup, date and time of birth, and name, as OTL; and that an individual with an identical birth to OTL can be a very different person from OTL, but it should in some sense be informed by changes in the world they develop and live in. For example:
    These individuals absolutely could be born as OTL, as TTL; some (like future monarchs) may even turn out fairly similar to OTL, though others (like Jefferson) could be far different from OTL, depending on how much history is changed by the time they reach adulthood.

    And as you get further from the PoD and into known changes to history (or general butterflies, depending), the likelihood that a person of OTL will be born at all goes down considerably.
     
  20. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

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    Jul 19, 2010
    I mean, yeah there's probably going to be someone named Napoleone di Buonaparte out there--it was a family name (in fact, Napoleon was one of several Napoleons in his family, including two deceased older siblings AND yes, Joseph). But it won't be TTL's Napoleon.
     
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