King Henry VIII, Holy Roman Emperor

It there a way to make Henry the VIII, or any English monarch, the Holy Roman Emporer. I had an Idea of after Emperor Charles V abdicated the throne, perhaps instead, it was given the Henry by the Pope. Spain would go to charles son, and mabey parts of Austria and Hungary go to Charles brother, but the German land would go to Henry. I had an Idea of Britain being part of the Holy Roman Empire,(and for code Geass Fans a possible Holy Britanian Empire).
 
Well, despite Hapsburg dominance, the HRE was still theoretically an elected crown. If England could somehow convince a majority of the electors to vote for them, it could happen.

This could probably be accomplished with copious bribes, and some sort of recent English military triumph (preferably over someone big and nearby - Denmark, maybe?)
 
How interesting. I've actually been thinking about this for the past week. The Holy Roman election in which Henry ran (1519?) was the one that elected Charles V. Supposedly, he was a compromise candidate between Charles and Francis I. I have no idea how you get four votes in his favor though, other than to amp up the bribes.

By the way, I think it's in Alison Weir's biography Henry VIII it's reported that he was not exactly broken up to get the news that he lost, expressing more of an "easy come, easy go" attitude. Of course that's not really keeping with H8's temperament, although that's how he would pretty much have to play it to minimize the embarassment.

Oh, and one extra point: an interesting point of departure might be for Henry--as was actually considered--to receive the title of "Most Christian King" from the Pope before the election. French kings had held it previously, but its conflicts with Rome at the end of the fifteenth century had evidently disqualified it. For it to go to Henry might count as a papal endorsement and create some leverage with the ecclesiastical electors.
 
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Not necessarily. Yes, it's true that in this era the Emperorship essentially had to be bought, even by the Hapsburgs when they had their monopoly. But there is a chance. I remember that for the 1519 election, the Pope really didn't want a Hapsburg to win again, so he sent entreaties to Elector Frederick of Saxony, telling him that he would pardon Martin Luther of all sins and personally would help fix the election if Frederick would stand against Charles. Frederick, of course, refused. However, this election is very close to when Henry wrote Assertio Septum Sacramentorum (1521) and was named Defender of the Faith. The Pope had no more love of the French - they had been interfering in Italy just as much as the Spanish had, recently - but if you can find a way to swap events round so the election is delayed, or Henry writes his book two years earlier (which means Luther's events happening earlier too) then it's entirely possible that the Pope, frustrated at Frederick and Luther, would then turn against them and ask Henry to step in. If Henry has the Pope's help, he could turn a few electors. I seem to recall that Henry actually did put in his own money for winning the election, too (iirc he spent £90,000 of taxation money on failing to bribe several electors) so he was clearly willing to do what was needed.

Of course, how good a HRE he would actually be is entirely another point. If you want him to actually do fairly well, you may need to somehow give Henry some land on the continent (as close to/inside Germany, the better) to act as a power base, even if it's not one of the big Electorate states. Henry keeps Tournai rather than selling it back to the French, maybe?

By the way, I think it's in Alison Weir's biography Henry VIII it's reported that he was not exactly broken up to get the news that he lost, expressing more of an "easy come, easy go" attitude. Of course that's not really keeping with H8's temperament, although that's how he would pretty much have to play it to minimize the embarassment.

Because he knew he wouldn't win, pure and simple. His involvement was token. I know he did give some bribes, but they were probably either to win a single Elector for the prestige, or simply so that his candidateship didn't look like he was just showing off by pretending to be involved (which was of course actually the case). But he knew he wouldn't win, so he wasn't concerned about it.
 
Well you put your finger on an interesting question here. Even if Henry VIII was to become Emperor, how would he be anything more than a token? There's simply no power base there. Of course this might actually be the strongest argument Henry could make to the electors concerned about the German constitution. Unlike the Habsburgs, he has no large holdings inside Germany that when combined with the throne present a threat to the freedom of the other princes, and unlike France is not in direct competition/conflict with some of the most important princely states of the empire.

I like the idea of Henry VIII being invited in as the anti-Lutheran enforcer. One could easily imagine Luther in such a situation suffering the fate of Sir Thomas More in this timeline.

Also, although it's a different point of departure, this is a fascinating complement to the Germania timeline and those discussions.

Not necessarily. Yes, it's true that in this era the Emperorship essentially had to be bought, even by the Hapsburgs when they had their monopoly. But there is a chance. I remember that for the 1519 election, the Pope really didn't want a Hapsburg to win again, so he sent entreaties to Elector Frederick of Saxony, telling him that he would pardon Martin Luther of all sins and personally would help fix the election if Frederick would stand against Charles. Frederick, of course, refused. However, this election is very close to when Henry wrote Assertio Septum Sacramentorum (1521) and was named Defender of the Faith. The Pope had no more love of the French - they had been interfering in Italy just as much as the Spanish had, recently - but if you can find a way to swap events round so the election is delayed, or Henry writes his book two years earlier (which means Luther's events happening earlier too) then it's entirely possible that the Pope, frustrated at Frederick and Luther, would then turn against them and ask Henry to step in. If Henry has the Pope's help, he could turn a few electors. I seem to recall that Henry actually did put in his own money for winning the election, too (iirc he spent £90,000 of taxation money on failing to bribe several electors) so he was clearly willing to do what was needed.

Of course, how good a HRE he would actually be is entirely another point. If you want him to actually do fairly well, you may need to somehow give Henry some land on the continent (as close to/inside Germany, the better) to act as a power base, even if it's not one of the big Electorate states. Henry keeps Tournai rather than selling it back to the French, maybe?



Because he knew he wouldn't win, pure and simple. His involvement was token. I know he did give some bribes, but they were probably either to win a single Elector for the prestige, or simply so that his candidateship didn't look like he was just showing off by pretending to be involved (which was of course actually the case). But he knew he wouldn't win, so he wasn't concerned about it.
 
Having Henry VIII as Emperor would be all kinds of interesting things. As a POD for a unified Germany (which I'm beginning to think is the only reason anyone on this board ever comes up with an HRE election POD) it is a flop however. Would Henry VIII travel to Milan and Rome to be crowned? Would Parliament fund something like that? With Luther now presumably pardoned as part of the Pope's deal with Frederick, will Henry VIII's ambitions for personal wealth and dynastic stability lead to a dissolution of the monasteries under Erasmusian auspicies, with England still in communion with Rome? Or, will Henry VIII break with Rome as in OTL, and with his leadership of Germany be able to create an alternative "Reformation" Church, a sort of pan-Protestantism communion, where the various bishops (since Lutheranism maintained bishops) can meet and lay out a new path forward.

This would be quite interesting.

I think the really big question is how the no-longer Universal Emperor affects Charles I (since Spain is now the most senior kingdom). He would still be a defender of the Catholic faith in Germany, but it would obviously be under different terms that OTL.
 
Forgetting Henry VIII for a moment and looking at the "or any English monarch" branch of the original question...

If King John I of England (John Lackland) dies before his first son is conceived in 1207, John's heir is likely his nephew Otto, who at this point is one of two rival claimants to the Holy Roman Empire. IOTL, Otto became undisputed Holy Roman Emperor in 1208.
 
Forgetting Henry VIII for a moment and looking at the "or any English monarch" branch of the original question...

If King John I of England (John Lackland) dies before his first son is conceived in 1207, John's heir is likely his nephew Otto, who at this point is one of two rival claimants to the Holy Roman Empire. IOTL, Otto became undisputed Holy Roman Emperor in 1208.

Edward III was actually offered the HRE title in 1348, but apparently rejected it. Though I read a very good biography of him, and I could swear I recall that he was crowned King of Germany (the HRE precursor and de facto heir title)
 
I tried this a couple of times, using a POD that wiped out most of the Trastamara dynasty and bagged Henry the Spanish thrones via his marriage with Catherine. I might go back to it sometime.
 
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