King Edward’s great matter

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isabella

krieger said:
Did they? Edmund Mortimer reported a plot aimed to crown exactly him to Henry V, it doesn't seem like he wanted the crown for himself. And he died childlessly, and neither his father Roger or uncle Edmund claimed the crown for himself. And Richard had Edward of Westminster recognized prince of Wales, when he still believed Edward to be Henry's son. It doesn't seem like the actions of men wanting the crown for themselves. But why English lords agreed to such choices made by Tudor? The reasons behind this won't vanish, because it is Maximilian, who is married to Elizabeth of York. Interesting, do you think that with half-brother he'll be less spoiled than he was OTL? And maybe his wife not being Juana and not idolizing him, his ego would grow far less than IOTL.
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Philip will be absolutely less spoiled than OTL and his ego would be kept down both by Anne of York and by the fact who his younger half-brother has an higher title than his own and he will die younger than OTL. Also ATL Philip will have a totally different mindset about France as ATL France will never be the OTL power, being too encircled and without any escape as the OTL Italian wars will never happen here as the alliance between Milan and Naples will remain intact.
And about England Max is still foreign so better crown Elizabeth and have him rule jure-uxoris
 
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Kellan Sullivan

kasumigenx said:
Isabella of Aragon is born in 1470 so she is good for Richard III...but the Habsburgs might block it since she might pass through their territories.
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How? Naples to Marseilles or up to Genoa and across France means she doesn't have to touch on Habsburg territory at ANY point.
 

Kellan Sullivan

krieger said:
Matilda never became ruling Queen and IOTL it was Henry Tudor, who became king, not his mother, Margaret Beaufort nor his wife, Elizabeth of York.
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But Matilda's son became king after Stephen. And the Yorks argued that their Mortimer ancestry gave them a higher place than the Lancasters. Harry Tudor (pox strike him down) became king "by right of conquest" NOT by virtue of his mom or wife. Harry made the latter VERY clear by delaying the marriage to EoY until AFTER he'd been crowned.
 

Kellan Sullivan

kasumigenx said:
But the French might stop her as the French have a treaty with the Habsburgs.
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Because treaties have never been broken? If France didn't stop her, they'd be looking at a Habsburg Burgundy next door and a Habsburg England across the Channel. Richard doesn't like France, but in such a scenario, he'd have "owed" the French.
 

isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
Señor Borja?
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Yes... His handling of the King Edward’s made him more friends and as the ATL conclave was turbulent as the OTL one his name quickly emerged as that of a compromise candidate instead of Cybo... That will have interesting consequences around Europe...
Kellan Sullivan said:
But Matilda's son became king after Stephen. And the Yorks argued that their Mortimer ancestry gave them a higher place than the Lancasters. Harry Tudor (pox strike him down) became king "by right of conquest" NOT by virtue of his mom or wife. Harry made the latter VERY clear by delaying the marriage to EoY until AFTER he'd been crowned.
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Yes and that was also my point. Unlike Henry Tudor, Maximilian decided who the best way for NOT having trouble in England was ruling there as Elizabeth’s consort and that united to the fact who they had already a Prince of Wales (with both Yorkist and legitimate (aka NOT Beaufort) Lancastrian blood) helped a lot with getting everyone on board...

About ATL Henry Tudor, I will say only who the Earl of Richmond (destined to inherit also his uncle’s Earldom of Pembroke) is a great favorite of King Maximilian and one of the English lords who he trust most...
 
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isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
Because treaties have never been broken? If France didn't stop her, they'd be looking at a Habsburg Burgundy next door and a Habsburg England across the Channel. Richard doesn't like France, but in such a scenario, he'd have "owed" the French.
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kasumigenx said:
Indeed.
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That is true, still Richard had not the time for searching another bride and in any case I do not know what position would have taken Anne as right now what she want most is having her brother’s little fiancée in her custody as Max promised to do and delayed after the death of her father...
Right now she is quite satisfied and not much worried about Maximilian ruling England as Marguerite is finally in her hands and she and Charles are friendly enough...
 
The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
Yes... His handling of the King Edward’s matter he made him more friends and as the ATL conclave was turbulent as the OTL one his name quickly emerged as that of a compromise candidate instead of Cybo... That will have interesting consequences around Europe...

Yes and that was also my point. Unlike Henry Tudor, Maximilian decided who the best way for NOT having trouble in England was ruling there as Elizabeth’s consort and that united to the fact who they had already a Prince of Wales (with both Yorkist and legitimate (aka NOT Beaufort) Lancastrian blood) helped a lot with getting everyone on board...

About ATL Henry Tudor, I will say only who the Earl of Richmond (destined to inherit also his uncle’s Earldom of Pembroke) is a great favorite of King Maximilian and one of the English lords who he trust most...
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Earl of Somerset too?
 

krieger

Banned
isabella said:
Philip will be absolutely less spoiled than OTL and his ego would be kept down both by Anne of York and by the fact who his younger half-brother has an higher title than his own and he will die younger than OTL. Also ATL Philip will have a totally different mindset about France as ATL France will never be the OTL power, being too encircled and without any escape as the OTL Italian wars will never happen here as the alliance between Milan and Naples will remain intact.
And about England Max is still foreign so better crown Elizabeth and have him rule jure-uxoris
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If Anne didn't worship as OTL Juana did it's completely possible, but it depends of personality of young Edward. How do you imagine him as a person? And Elizabeth of York IOTL lived well into XVIth century, so when both Phil and Edward were alive, latter is only prince of Wales. And France still will be a wealthiest and most populous country in Europe, so it'd be a great power. Besides this, Iberia will be never taken by Habsburgs ITTL so France is hardly encircled, it could ally with Trastamaras.
Kellan Sullivan said:
But Matilda's son became k iing after Stephen. And the Yorks argued that their Mortimer ancestry gave them a higher place than the Lancasters. Harry Tudor (pox strike him down) became king "by right of conquest" NOT by virtue of his mom or wife. Harry made the latter VERY clear by delaying the marriage to EoY until AFTER he'd been crowned.
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Matilda's son is her son and Stephen also had female-line claim. Henry VII became king "de iure belli and iure lancastri", so "iure lancastri" part needed to come from his mom.
 

isabella

The Professor said:
Earl of Somerset too?
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No, not Somerset... He and his wife (Margaret of Clarence) will have four sons: the eldest son will inherit the titles of Richmond and Pembroke, the second will be made Earl of Salisbury, the third will receive the Earldom of Warwick (as his maternal uncle had already renounced to it) and the fourth will enter in the church and become a Cardinal
 
The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
No, not Somerset... He and his wife (Margaret of Clarence) will have four sons: the eldest son will inherit the titles of Richmond and Pembroke, the second will be made Earl of Salisbury, the third will receive the Earldom of Warwick (as his maternal uncle had already renounced to it) and the fourth will enter in the church and become a Cardinal
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Cool. Will Somerset therefore go to Buckingham/Stafford?
 

isabella

The Professor said:
Cool. Will Somerset therefore go to Buckingham/Stafford?
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I am not sure if anyone will get that title, I know little about English lords... Edward Stafford will marry Eleanor Percy as OTL and they will have their OTL children: only Henry will marry Isabella Tudor (younger daughter of Henry and Margaret) and Elizabeth will be daughter-in-law of her OTL husband (and her husband will be likely called John or Edward not Thomas as I had already confused the third Duke with his father earlier)
 
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The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
I am not sure if anyone will get that title, I know little about English lords... Edward Stafford will marry Eleanor Percy as OTL and they will have their OTL children: only Henry will marry Isabella Tudor (younger daughter of Henry and Margaret) and Elizabeth will be daughter-in-law of her OTL husband (and her husband will be likely called John or Edward not Thomas as I had already confused the third Duke with his father earlier)
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Thinking about it, would not Henry Tudor claim the Earldom? Technically the King could grant to either of them as it went into abeyance with the last holder (the last Duke of Somerset) leaving only female nieces as heirs.
 

isabella

The Professor said:
Thinking about it, would not Henry Tudor claim the Earldom? Technically the King could grant to either of them as it went into abeyance with the last holder (the last Duke of Somerset) leaving only female nieces as heirs.
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For what reason? He has already his Earldom (Richmond from his father) and is the heir of another (Pembroke, unless Jasper - who has no intention to marry - had a legitimate son) and Elizabeth and Maximilian will give the titles of Margaret’s family to their younger sons (Salisbury to the second and Warwick to the third) as Edward of Warwick renounced to all his English lands and titles after the birth of his sons by Anne of Brittany
 
The Professor

The Professor

isabella said:
For what reason? He has already his Earldom (Richmond from his father) and is the heir of another (Pembroke, unless Jasper - who has no intention to marry - had a legitimate son) and Elizabeth and Maximilian will give the titles of Margaret’s family to their younger sons (Salisbury to the second and Warwick to the third) as Edward of Warwick renounced to all his English lands and titles after the birth of his sons by Anne of Brittany
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I mean I can see him not pursuing claim once he's married etc but OTL his claim to Richmond was rejected by Edward and Richard, and he's the most prominent Beaufort heir so I can see him claiming both Richmond and Somerset.
Gloucester's death sees him get Richmond, why not Somerset? It could be because it might be contested by Stafford. But wouldn't he still claim considering the circumstances?
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

The Professor said:
I mean I can see him not pursuing claim once he's married etc but OTL his claim to Richmond was rejected by Edward and Richard, and he's the most prominent Beaufort heir so I can see him claiming both Richmond and Somerset.
Gloucester's death sees him get Richmond, why not Somerset? It could be because it might be contested by Stafford. But wouldn't he still claim considering the circumstances?
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Tudors IOTL had no problem embracing Margaret Beaufort's claim to Somerset. Both Henry VII and Henry VIII chose to title a son as Duke of Somerset.
 

isabella

The Professor said:
I mean I can see him not pursuing claim once he's married etc but OTL his claim to Richmond was rejected by Edward and Richard, and he's the most prominent Beaufort heir so I can see him claiming both Richmond and Somerset.
Gloucester's death sees him get Richmond, why not Somerset? It could be because it might be contested by Stafford. But wouldn't he still claim considering the circumstances?
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curlyhairedhippie said:
Tudors IOTL had no problem embracing Margaret Beaufort's claim to Somerset. Both Henry VII and Henry VIII chose to title a son as Duke of Somerset.
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Sure, but what titles Henry Tudor choose to use as King and what titles Maximilian and Elizabeth choose to give to him and Margaret is another matter... Plus Somerset is a big mess as we have no clear heir for it and is likely to be considered either extinct (or in abeyance between Margaret Beaufort’s cousins (who were daughters/sisters of the last Duke) but the latter is unlikely as Margaret had not inherited them from her father so all the Somerset titles were most likely in male line only. The Earldoms of Richmond and Pembroke will go to Henry, likely to be held in make-line only, from his male line, while the Earldoms of Warwick and Salisbury were restored to Henry’s younger sons but were both already inherited in the female line so Margaret was the clear heiress, after her brother’s renounce to his English titles and lands
 
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