King Carlos II of Spain

Let's say that Carlos, son of Philip II of Spain avoids his fall, and remains reasonably sane, and let's say that his father dies in 1564, when Carlos is nineteen, what might the consequences of this be? Who might Carlos marry? What sort of policies might he pursue?
 
Philip II of Spain (b.1527: d.1564) m. Maria Manuela of Portugal (b.1527: d.1545) (a), Mary I of England (b.1516: d.1558) (b), Elizabeth of Valois (b.1545: d.1570) (c)

1a) Charles II of Spain (b.1545: d.1586) m. Elizabeth of Valois (b.1545: d.1570) (a), Maximiliana Maria of Bavaria (b.1552: d.1614) (b)

1a) Maria Manuela of Spain (b.1566)

2a) Anna Catarina of Spain (b.1567)

3a) Ferdinand, Prince of Asturias (b.1569: d.1569)

4a) Charles III of Spain (b.1570)

5b) Miscarriage (c.1573)

6b) John of Spain (b.1575: d.1575)

7b) Stillborn Boy (c.1576)

8b) Juana of Spain (b.1580)

9b) Miscarriage (c.1582)

10b) Philip of Spain (b.1585: d.1585)​

2b) Miscarried Daughter (c.1564)

3b) Miscarried Daughter (c.1564)​
 
I know the Catholic church has given some pretty way-out dispensations, but no way this side of blue hell are they giving a dispensation to let anyone (let alone a king) marry his widowed stepmother - by canon law she becomes his mother as soon as the ring is on her finger. Thus, Carlos can only marry Elisabeth if she has never married his father. Although, there were plans after Elisabeth married Felipe for Marguerite to marry Carlos, but the French thought that that would be putting too many eggs in one basket.
 
I know the Catholic church has given some pretty way-out dispensations, but no way this side of blue hell are they giving a dispensation to let anyone (let alone a king) marry his widowed stepmother - by canon law she becomes his mother as soon as the ring is on her finger. Thus, Carlos can only marry Elisabeth if she has never married his father. Although, there were plans after Elisabeth married Felipe for Marguerite to marry Carlos, but the French thought that that would be putting too many eggs in one basket.

Hmm okay, let's say then that instead of Philip II marrying Elisabeth in 1560, it is his son Charles who marries her.

How's this sound:

Philip II of Spain (b.1527: d.1564) m. Maria Manuela of Portugal (b.1527: d.1545) (a), Mary I of England (b.1516: d.1558)
1a) Charles II of Spain (b.1545: d.1586) m. Elizabeth of Valois (b.1545: d.1580)
-Maria Manuela of Spain (b1561)
- Anna Catarina of Spain (b1562)
-Carlos III of Spain (b1564)
-Ferdinand of Spain (b1568)
-Juana of Spain (b 1571)
 
I have to agree with Jonas Resende, no pope will allow anyone to marry their stepmother, it was hard enough for Henry VIII to marry his sister-in-law Catherine.

In 1559 Prince Carlos was betrothed to Elizabeth of Valois, eldest daughter of King Henry II of France. However, for political reasons, she instead married to his father, King Philip in 1560.

Three other brides were then suggested for the Prince: Mary, Queen of Scots; Margaret of Valois, youngest daughter of Henry II of France; and Anna of Austria. It was agreed in 1564 that Carlos should marry Anna, so with Philip II dead, Carlos is free to marry Anna.

Philip II of Spain (b.1527: d.1564) m. Maria Manuela of Portugal (b.1527: d.1545) (a), Mary I of England (b.1516: d.1558) (b), Elizabeth of Valois (b.1545: d.1570) (c)

1a) Charles II of Spain (b.1545: d.1586) m. Anna of Austria (b.1549 : d.1580)

1) Infanta Anna Maria of Spain (b.1567)

2) Ferdinand, Prince of Asturias (b.1571)

3) Infante Carlos Maximilian of Spain (B.1573) [3]

4) Cardinal-Infante Philip Carlos (B.1578)

5) Infanta Isabella Manuela of Spain (B. 1980)
 
I have to agree with Jonas Resende, no pope will allow anyone to marry their stepmother, it was hard enough for Henry VIII to marry his sister-in-law Catherine.

In 1559 Prince Carlos was betrothed to Elizabeth of Valois, eldest daughter of King Henry II of France. However, for political reasons, she instead married to his father, King Philip in 1560.

Three other brides were then suggested for the Prince: Mary, Queen of Scots; Margaret of Valois, youngest daughter of Henry II of France; and Anna of Austria. It was agreed in 1564 that Carlos should marry Anna, so with Philip II dead, Carlos is free to marry Anna.

Philip II of Spain (b.1527: d.1564) m. Maria Manuela of Portugal (b.1527: d.1545) (a), Mary I of England (b.1516: d.1558) (b), Elizabeth of Valois (b.1545: d.1570) (c)

1a) Charles II of Spain (b.1545: d.1586) m. Anna of Austria (b.1549 : d.1580)

1) Infanta Anna Maria of Spain (b.1567)

2) Ferdinand, Prince of Asturias (b.1571)

3) Infante Carlos Maximilian of Spain (B.1573) [3]

4) Cardinal-Infante Philip Carlos (B.1578)

5) Infanta Isabella Manuela of Spain (B. 1980)



Intrtesting so you don't think Carlos could marry Elizabeth instead of his father?
 
Intrtesting so you don't think Carlos could marry Elizabeth instead of his father?

Well, if King Pip can find another, more lucrative bride - Mary, Queen of Scots is an idea, although Felipe abhorred her as "too French", which was the main consideration for why he scotched the marriage plans with his son (well, the main reason besides the fact that he hated Cawwos) - then the possibility exists that Felipe will marry her instead of a French princess with four brothers in front of her (maybe the duke of Lorraine - Charles III? - dies without male issue and bam! suddenly his sisters are the most eligible brides in Christendom (AFAIK the forgery that was the Testament of Rene of Anjou only came out when France was trying to annex Lorraine by marrying LXIII to one of the then duke's daughters, whereas the Spanish Habsburgs have a territory lying adjacent to Lorraine, plus if all goes according to plan (which it rarely does in history), Lorraine and the Netherlands will pass to the son who won't be inheriting Spain, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, Portugal, the world))
 
Let's say that Carlos, son of Philip II of Spain avoids his fall, and remains reasonably sane, and let's say that his father dies in 1564, when Carlos is nineteen, what might the consequences of this be? Who might Carlos marry? What sort of policies might he pursue?
Are you actualy asking how this person would be as a king if he was actualy a very different person than he was OTL? The answer is obvious. We have no idea and there is no way to know. I see these kind of questions quite often on this board and I never understood them. How can we speculate about the policies of someone we do not know?
 
Well, if King Pip can find another, more lucrative bride - Mary, Queen of Scots is an idea, although Felipe abhorred her as "too French", which was the main consideration for why he scotched the marriage plans with his son (well, the main reason besides the fact that he hated Cawwos) - then the possibility exists that Felipe will marry her instead of a French princess with four brothers in front of her (maybe the duke of Lorraine - Charles III? - dies without male issue and bam! suddenly his sisters are the most eligible brides in Christendom (AFAIK the forgery that was the Testament of Rene of Anjou only came out when France was trying to annex Lorraine by marrying LXIII to one of the then duke's daughters, whereas the Spanish Habsburgs have a territory lying adjacent to Lorraine, plus if all goes according to plan (which it rarely does in history), Lorraine and the Netherlands will pass to the son who won't be inheriting Spain, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, Portugal, the world))
Hmm interesting and also quite funny. So yeah it does seem Carlos would marry Anna then eh?
Are you actualy asking how this person would be as a king if he was actualy a very different person than he was OTL? The answer is obvious. We have no idea and there is no way to know. I see these kind of questions quite often on this board and I never understood them. How can we speculate about the policies of someone we do not know?
Hold onto your snark a moment, what I am asking is from what we know of Carlos pre his fall it seems he could've been decent, had he not fallen what o am asking is might he have continued that way? One might not know for sure but one can make guesses based on what they know. No need for the snark
 
Hold onto your snark a moment, what I am asking is from what we know of Carlos pre his fall it seems he could've been decent, had he not fallen what o am asking is might he have continued that way? One might not know for sure but one can make guesses based on what they know. No need for the snark
Barely. He was 17 at the time. Since people change a lot during puberty (including personality wise), I don't think it is reasonable to look at what he did as a child and extrapolate it to after his fall. Basicly the question remains to ask how an unkown person would behave.

Mind you, nothing personal to you. I have seen more of these kind of questions. You were just the one I decided to react to.
 
Barely. He was 17 at the time. Since people change a lot during puberty (including personality wise), I don't think it is reasonable to look at what he did as a child and extrapolate it to after his fall. Basicly the question remains to ask how an unkown person would behave.

Mind you, nothing personal to you. I have seen more of these kind of questions. You were just the one I decided to react to.

Some people do some people don't. It's possible to make guesses aha
 
Intrtesting so you don't think Carlos could marry Elizabeth instead of his father?
No, with Phillip II throwing his hat into the ring for political reasons, Elizabeth would not be able to marry Carlos, so instead, he would marry Anne of Austria.

Some people do some people don't. It's possible to make guesses aha

Although be born delicate, deformed and showing slight signs of mental instability, which was common due to the inbreeding imfamously used in the House of Hasburg, Carlos had a wilful and proud image of himself, so would work hard to over come these problems.

He often attended meetings of the Council of State (which dealt with foreign affairs) which is usually rare for a young royal, so shows signs that he would be a king with high interest in foreign and home politics.

With Carlos in control of the country, I would like to think that he would be able to steer it away from state bankruptcies, unlike his father did in 1569, 1575, and 1596.
Although, religious, I also hope that Carlos, would not try and organise a naval expedition against Protestant England, similar to his father, I.E: the failed Spanish Armada of 1588, which was unsuccessful, mostly due to storms and grave logistical problems.
 
Okay so we've got Carlos married to Anna of Austria

And with him becoming king in 1564 would there still be a Dutch revolt?

Furthermore how might things develop regarding Austria and France?
 
Elisabeth was promised to Carlos, then Mary died and Philip, who had hated being married with her, was free to remarry and the French offered Elisabeth to Philip instead. If the treaty of Cateau Cambrésis is finalized before Mary of England's death (OTL Mary died five monts before the signing of the treaty so either it was concluded some months before OTL or Mary dies a little later or both) then Elisabeth will marry Carlos and not Philip. And I think who a wedding between Anna and Carlos will result without sane children so will be very bad for Spain...
If he is still free Philip II can marry Mary of Scotland when her husband die (and try to take again England)
 
Elisabeth was promised to Carlos, then Mary died and Philip, who had hated being married with her, was free to remarry and the French offered Elisabeth to Philip instead. If the treaty of Cateau Cambrésis is finalized before Mary of England's death (OTL Mary died five monts before the signing of the treaty so either it was concluded some months before OTL or Mary dies a little later or both) then Elisabeth will marry Carlos and not Philip. And I think who a wedding between Anna and Carlos will result without sane children so will be very bad for Spain...
If he is still free Philip II can marry Mary of Scotland when her husband die (and try to take again England)

Hmm interesting though Philip did prefer Elizabeth to Mary of scots
 
Or perhaps Mary, QoS marries François II a little earlier, and is rumored to be with child when Mary Tudor dies, that way, Elizabeth Tudor has to start casting around earnestly for a hubby (as in the TL The Virgin's Son) and the Habsburgs are really the only option who are strong enough to take on France?:confused:
 
Or perhaps Mary, QoS marries François II a little earlier, and is rumored to be with child when Mary Tudor dies, that way, Elizabeth Tudor has to start casting around earnestly for a hubby (as in the TL The Virgin's Son) and the Habsburgs are really the only option who are strong enough to take on France?:confused:

Interesting, could Francis II actually sire children though?
 
Interesting, could Francis II actually sire children though?

With undescended testicles and all his ailments, he's like the Valois equivalent of Carlos II. That said, Mary had a phantom pregnancy in 1559, brought on for similar reasons as those of her cousin/namesake in England, so François doesn't have to sire children, everyone just has to think he has.
 
With undescended testicles and all his ailments, he's like the Valois equivalent of Carlos II. That said, Mary had a phantom pregnancy in 1559, brought on for similar reasons as those of her cousin/namesake in England, so François doesn't have to sire children, everyone just has to think he has.

Ah I see, and therefore Elizabeth would be in much greater need of a husband
 
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