Kill them all!: An alternate Cathar war

Great!

Why do not Philip Augustus or at least his son Louis, take advantage of this mess and invade Aquitaine?
Louis could claim Aquitaine at least via his wife...
 
Great!

Why do not Philip Augustus or at least his son Louis, take advantage of this mess and invade Aquitaine?
Louis could claim Aquitaine at least via his wife...

The same fears of a clash with the papacy that made Louis effectively turn down de Courcy invitation helped held back the french crown somewhat. Somewhat but not completely as they did, in fact, take advantage of the situation but I decided to keep that for either my first update on France, witch here as the OTL pre-conquest meaning, or for the next english update, witch will roll down when Simon de Montfort Jr will come to claim Leicester (its gonna go smoother then OTL thanks to Raymond, by this point VII, support as Toulouse and England still have their OTL good relations and ITTL the Plantagenet actually need the Saint-Gilles more then the other way around) as I decided to keep those updates focused on the Baron War proper, one war at the time we might say ;)
 
Chapter XIII: The Interwar period

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Seal of Raymond VII of Toulouse

When you arrive in Toulouse give all usual respects to the older of titles but settle all our affairs with he who hold the power and will soon hold the titles as well.
Raymond-Roger, Count of Foix to his son Raymond-Bernard II, 1220

The war might have cost us allot but it as also changed us. In the fires of Béziers, Lavaur and Lodève our land and our people where reforged, stronger, more courageous, more united and more decided then we where before. We werent ready for them but it wont happen again, for as long as I live at least.
Raymond VII, Count of Toulouse, Duke of Narbonne and Marquess of Gothia, 1224.

This is nothing my friends, merely a temporary setback. We shall hide yes but we will continue our work. Sooner or latter all shall see the truth.
Ghillabert de Castres, Cathar Bishop of Laurageais, 1217

Many historians tend to quickly make their way through the years that follow the definitive conclusion of the Albigensian Crusade at the Council of Latran. To be sure, such a state of affairs is more then understandable from a human and narrative point of view. After all, as welcome as settlement that mostly restaured Languedoc to what it was before the war to Occitans who fought for such an outcome for years it can only prove to be quite anti-climatic for those who, like us, observe such events through the leanses of many centuries past. Nevertheless, we must deplore such a situation as a good comprehension of the period is essential to grasp the causes of the Provencial War, this most capital even in the history of the Occitans people, her eventual result and even her most potent consequences.


We must here begin with the most visible and evident political consequences of the Albigensian Crusade: the few changes she effectively produced to the map of the Land of Oc. We already had the occasion of speaking of the greatest gain made by the House of Toulouse during the crusade, when relating the events who marked and preceded the Siege of Orange, but we have yet to do more then mention the land whose lost represented, for Raymond VI, one of the few unpleasant aspects of a settlement witch otherwise confirmed the Occitan victory: the County of Melgueil. The story of this small but relatively prosperous fief is quite emblematic of the pecularities present in the legal status of many fiefs in those days, one small piece of the large domains she had nevertheless, through a series of contracts, agreements and testaments, fallen into the hands of the papacy. To preserve her relationships with the Counts of Toulouse, the acquistion of Melgueil having occured during the years where the strugle against Barbarossa had reached its high-water mark she needed no new ennemies, she gave it to the Counts in exchange for their hommage for the County of Melgueil and a nominal tribute. When Raymond VI was excomunicated for the first time in 1207 the County was confiscated without opposition and remained under papal authority ever since (1). While negociating the peace Innocent III had made quite clear that the return of Melgueil was off the table and Raymond VI, considering that it was a small price to pay among other things for his return in grace on relatively favorable terms. Thus the fate of the county was one of the question who occupied the last months of the reign of Innocent III. In the end the pope judged necesssary to show that the church knew how to reward the man who died for her in Languedoc and most often then not bankrupted and the County of Melgueil was one of the few tools he had to do so. Nevertheless, such a decision was not without causing some issues as the pope also desired reconciliation with the Occitans princes and that most of the mens fitting this definition where hated by any good Occitan. One man however hade managed to both faithfully serve the crusade and earn the respect of the Occitans and so was Alain de Roucy was created by the Pope Count of Melgueil. In that capacity he entertained suprisingly good relations with the Occitans Princes. As he finish what he had begun as a prisoner in Toulouse and managed to speak, write and read Occitan fairly fluently, made his court welcome to all troubadours, even those who sang of his defeats, and made friendship of many of the local lords and princes, most notably with Constance, widow of Pierre-Bermond Lord of Anduze and Daughter of Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, Duke of Narbonne and Lord of Gothia (2), many began to think that, in the modern popular parlance, de Roucy had went native.

The most potents of the political changes that transformed the lands of those of the tongue of Oc during those years where not, however, directly shown on a map. Not so slowly but surely the Lords of Occitinia who hadnt yet be put under Tolosain vasselage where beguining to gravitate closer and closer to the House of Saint-Gilles, continuing the process who started during the last years of the crusade. Once the supreme benefactors of the conflicts between Toulouse and Barcelone, having used them to acquire de facto independance, the Counts of Foix and Comminges willingly adopted a more and more vassal like attitude toward Toulouse. The latest conflicts had frightened them and, while Aragon had done nothing to protect them, the House of Saint-Gilles had saved their lands as well as hers. Thus, also encouraged by the populairity and the prestige of Raymond VII, who had held the power of such titles for years through his growing assumption of comtal power years before his father death in 1222 allowed him to do so in right, they put themselves under the protective ombrella of Toulouse. So did as well the Viscounts of Couserans and Trencavel, the raliement of the latest, no doubt aided by the close bounds of friendship between the Count of Toulouse and Raymond II Trencavel, did more to change the equilibrum of power that used to prevail in Occitania then any other events of the 1220's. The second most powerfull house in Languedoc after the Saint-Gilles the Trencavel had often ambitioned to surpass them and had proved frequent and efficient, if not completely trusworthy allied of Barcelona. Theirs ralliement to Toulouse, on the other hand, effectively walled the Pyrennes against any massive aragonese incursion, not that Peter II was planning one but the disparition of the possibility to do so without important resistance from the get go severly curtained aragonese influence in the north.

Facing such developments Aragon had no choice to react, not with open warfare as Raymond VII remained his god-brother (3) and as even a best case scenario, consisting of a decisive Aragonese victory, risked to provoke the intervention of foreign powers, thanks to the vacuum caused by crumbling of the Tolosain state it would imply, but through more discret means. Thus Aragon spent most of the late 1220's trying to stir trouble in Languedoc and Northern Provence, helping cadet ambitious cadet to attempt to claim the lands of their elders, exploiting the local rivalries between nobles and or consular families, all in order to rebuild a base of support in the region. While they assuredly produced some damages and chaos those actions never seriously managed to threathen the growing grip held by Toulouse over the rest of the Languedoc, disputes where far more often the not settled amiably under tolosain arbitration and, when necessary, the meare threat of force was almost always enough to force even the less cooperative to comply. Such activities ceased around 1230 as growing tensions with Castille forced Aragon to turn once more toward the west.


With insight we can now see that the failure of the Aragonese policies during the 1220's was inevitable as those who made the decisions in Barcelona didnt take into account the profound changes that had affected the Occitan society during the years who followed the immense traumatism that the Albigensian Crusade had represented for her. To be fair, not much seemed to have change in appearance as the Occitans where still their tolerant selves and the courts of theirs lords and the house of her olligarchs where still dominated with the practices of Courteous Love and the songs of the troubadours. Under the surface, however, many things where changing as the ladies of the land now gave their favour to those who had distinguished themselves in the war, latter to those who showed skills at arms, and the song of the troubadours became less and less love ballads and more songs relating the victories of the ancestors of Raymond VII, both real and imagined, and the Battles and Sieges who broke the dream of Simon the Elder of Montfort. As the urban militias and feudal levies of the lands where gaining in strenght through the years a new visions of the world began to devellop in the heart of the Occitan, more militant, more agressive, a vision that designed as one of the main hers of the roman civilisation, civilisation witch they managed to retain unlike the barbarians who surrounded them. Such a society was unlikely to be receptive to the sirens of the outside and would not fail to take advantages of any occasion she had to diminish the influence foreigners could posess in the lands she consider hers. Thus, as soon as the attention of Aragon was once again turned to te west troubles either began to agitate the remaining holdings of Aragon or in the region or gained in intensity. In Montpellier an alliance, brokered behing the scene by agents of Raymond VII, between those who wanted to turn Montpellier in a republic and the partisans of Guilhem IX of Montpellier (4) and of a Montpelerian republic, proved enough to truly vainquish the partisans of Aragon, already very weakened. Guilhem IX became lord and accorded to the Consuls of the city extremely extensive privilege, before both consuls and lord placed Montpelier under the protection of Raymond VII in 1233.

The Montpellier affair, however paled in importance in front of the conflict that agitated the County of Provence during those years. His count, Raymond-Bérenger IV, a member of the House of Barcelona was the last scion of a line who, far more then the Lords of Orange, had been the true rivals of the House of Saint-Gilles in the region of the Rhône. Authoritarian by nature, Raymond-Bérenger IV, had spent the early years antagonising both his lords and the rising consul movement in the cities of the County. It must not have required much for the agents of Raymond VII to organise them in the League of St.Raphael and convince them to rise against their counts in 1233. Deprived of most of its revenues, those originating from the cities, and the lands of its rare partisans raided by Percusores contingents borrowed by the rebels, therefore depriving them from most of their troops Raymond-Bérenger had no chances, after two years of unsucessfull campaigns and a grievous injurie taken under the walls of Marseilles Ramond-Bérenger accepted to negociate. In the Treaty of Arles (1234) he made numerous conscensions to the rebels, recognised Raymond VII as their protector and gave his daughter Eleanor in marriage to his son Raymond (5) (6) (7). At the time Raymond VII had already become, by a good margin more powerfull then all his predecessors. His success at advancings the traditional ambitions of the House of Saint-Gilles where enhanced by the decision of many gascon lords, who wanted to neither submit to paris or fail victim of her war by proxy and desespaired of receiving help from England, Henri III being already called the second Softsword by some of them, put themselves under the protection of Toulouse. It was in those days that Raymond VII became know under the name under witch he went down in history: Raymond The Great.

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Raymond-Bérenger IV, Count of Provence

No matter how tempting it might we cannot, however, simply loose ourselves in such a rosy picture and forget the dark parts of those years as, despite the restrictions putted on her by Pope Innocent III the inquisition had already begun to produce the sinisters music made by victims of tortures and the gruesome light of the pyre a somewhat regular occureance for the Occitans. Victims she might have made but the Occitan inquisition remained relatively inneficient, as the know Cathar clerics and proeminent believers hide while the population cooperated only as much as she really needed, even cash rewards didnt do much in term of usefull denounciations. In consequence, the inquistion started to tail and even arrest those who had vaguely suspicious comportements, making many smudges along the way and opening themselves to derisions. No tales is more representative of this period of the history of the inquistion then the very well know one of Marie of Island of Eu. The 20 years old women had a tendency to dissapear for more or less long periods of time and refused to tell anyone where she went and seemed to dispose of monetary means uncommon for common women. The inquisition suspected her to be a Cathar noviciate and therefore followed her until she dissapeared from her normal activity and then burged into the room where she had went, ready to arrest her and the Parfait she was consorted with. Instead they caught her and her lover, Simon V of Montfort, doing more then talking (8). That particular scandal proved to be the final drop for Dominique of Guzman, Archbishop of Narbonne and concinved him to directly take charge of the inqusition. Under his wings the inquisition began to adopt a more methodical and chirurgical approach. Widespread arrestations ceased as more emphasis was put on interogations. Those arrested with good cause where given too choice: receive their sentences or give the inquisition informations of value proportional to their infractions, in exchange of witch they would be pardonned. Using those informations they where able to make more arrests, gather more informations and so on and so forth. By 1238 catharism was, if not erradicated, at least firmly on the defensive in the cities and towns. The Cathar believers remaining there made their best to not be remarked and only assisting to cathar services close to home when a recently made Cathar came back from the countryside or when they went to the countryside themselves. Catharism in the coutryside also suffered blows but they werent of the same gravity as the immensity of the Occitan countryside both gave the Cathars clerics ample space to hide and made impossible for the inquistion to truly maintain pressure in any given area. In fact, thanks to the exodus of the clerics and the most militan of the believers from the urbain areas, rural catharism even marginally reinforced itself during the era. In 1238 it had become ingreasingly clear that the destruction of Catharism would necessitate a long and sustained effort for the catholic church.

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A pyre of the inquistion

For the moment, however, religious questions would be generaly forgotten by most Occitans as other, far more spectacular events, while occupy their minds and spirits: on October 4, 1238 Raymond-Bérenger of Provence died from his injury, never completely healed, sustained under the walls of Marseilles, leaving behing him tree daughter and no sons. Despite his successes Raymond had owed his monicker in no small part to flatery by his vassals. The coming event would, however, give him the occasion to more then deserve it.

(1) One of the few advantages of having a pacific and cautious Raymond VI in command during the last years of the crusade instead of a bold, brilliant Raymond VII: unlike OTL the Counts of Toulouse didnt make the mistake of enraging the papacy a good deal further then necessary by retaking the County by force.


(2) IC: The rumours that made them lovers, beloved by 19th century novelists, have no base in history. One must admit, tough, that de Courcy latter actions havent done much to dissipate them.

(3) Like OTL he his married to Sancia of Aragon, sister of Peter II.

(4) The Montpellier conflict is a pretty complicated issue, as all tree side conflicts are. On one side you have Aragon, whose king take his claim from his wife Sancia of Montpellier, daughter of Guilhem VIII of Montpelier and his first wife, Eudoxia Ange. Aragon argue that the contract made between Guilhem VIII and the Ange of Byzantium guaranteed that childrens of their unions would be the only ones to inherit. Guilhem IX, son of Guilhem VIII and his second wife, and his supporters on their side argued that the contract was superseded by Guilhem VIII testament who made his son his heir. Finally, a sizable fraction of the burghers have decided that they have enough with all of their shenanigans and that paying taxes for that was absurd, they want to turn Montpellier into a republic. OTL we lost track of Guilhem IX after 1204 but, since there isnt any evident occasions where he could have found death and that he was quite young at the time, he may have lived quite longer. I decided to went with that.

(5) In OTL Raymond-Bérenger had his problems but the Albigensian Crusade played to his advantage and he submitted the discontent one by one. Even so, in the late years of his reign, despite the massive weakness of the County of Toulouse following the treaty of Paris in 1229, Raymond VII almost managed to conquer the County of Provence by taking advantage of the discontent of many among the vassals of Raymond-Bérenger.

(6) In OTL Eleanor of Provence wed Henri III of England and was the mother of Edward I Longshanks. Look! Butterflies! ;)

(7) Butterflies are in effect here, the list of his childrens: Constance (1218), Raymond (1221), Pons (1225), Sancia (1226).

(8) IC: She was the mother of the famous Gill El Léon.
 
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Well, so the Cathars had avoided most of the flames that Montfort created all around but Guzman and the Inquisition is there... The Cathars are not so weakened as in OTL, but Guzman is still himself...
 
Well, so the Cathars had avoided most of the flames that Montfort created all around but Guzman and the Inquisition is there... The Cathars are not so weakened as in OTL, but Guzman is still himself...

Funilly enough, Guzman wasnt that horrible himself and he actually really disliked the tough of religious repression, hence why he spent most of is OTL career trying to secure a pacific solution to the cathar problem. He got a bad rep OTL because his successors at the head of the Dominican order where rather more enthousiastic about the whole thing!

Nevertheless, he remain a catholic cleric of the 13th century, and not from a culture with an unsually tolerant attitude toward religious difference as where the Occitans, he will not make it as gruessome as it need to be (he is actually making less damages from the OTL one as the inquisition he forged is more about destroying catharism then the cathars, hence an overall more clement attitude toward those willing to cooperate and a more laser-focus toward the clergy) but he will do what he feel he must do and is successors are probably gonna be worst.

A quick note on chronology: OTL de Guzman died in 1221 but was described as ''sick and exhausted by his work and travel'' here he got to spend time relaxing in his archbishop palace and got better so he will live longer.
 
It as been pointed to me that I made mistakes on some crucial point so I have decided to put this on hiatus until I can either decide to start it again from scratch or find a new subject for a brand new TL.
 
It as been pointed to me that I made mistakes on some crucial point so I have decided to put this on hiatus until I can either decide to start it again from scratch or find a new subject for a brand new TL.

No, I love it... I'm sure you can solve whatever it is
 
No, I love it... I'm sure you can solve whatever it is

Thank you for the kind sentiments but I'm affraid it won't be possible, or at least not to my satisfaction.

Look at it that way: if you loved one of my timeline while it was deeply flawed I'm sure you will do as well on one witch is on surest footing, be it a reboot of this or a brand new TL ;)
 
Thank you for the kind sentiments but I'm affraid it won't be possible, or at least not to my satisfaction.

Look at it that way: if you loved one of my timeline while it was deeply flawed I'm sure you will do as well on one witch is on surest footing, be it a reboot of this or a brand new TL ;)

How far back was the issue, and how fundamental was the flaw; i.e. was it a divergence that was unlikely to happen, but wasn't ASB? If so, just keep working on the timeline. If its something you feel that you defintitely can't keep going forward with, just change that and rewrite the chapters from that point onward. No need to scrap the entire timeline.
 
How far back was the issue, and how fundamental was the flaw; i.e. was it a divergence that was unlikely to happen, but wasn't ASB? If so, just keep working on the timeline. If its something you feel that you defintitely can't keep going forward with, just change that and rewrite the chapters from that point onward. No need to scrap the entire timeline.

The issue was is that it was flaws instead of flaw witch and that they would make what I planned latter on somewhat unrealistic. Hence why I feel compelled to go back to the drawing board. I'm not gonna send everything into the trash, allot of what I have already written will be reussed or ammended rather then recreate but I believe in doing anything I do well, or at least as well as I can, so I'm gonna take sometime to plan things again and come back with an ameliorated version of the TL. I have actually already planned a few of the more important changes and decided on some of things I will keep.

As an aside doing some revisithing on what I have already written actually motivate to revisite my first TL written here as well. Hoping it could attract more interest then the first time (If nothing else my improved writting skills in English should help).

Its more obscure and I can understand that canadian history be less entertaining for some then good old medieval warfare but its subject close to my earth as the TL is centered on my own community escaping our great historical tragedy so if you, or any other reader here would be willing to indulge me and give it a shot while I work on kill them all 2.0 at the same time I would really appreciate it.

People interesting on what its about can fin the event, or rather the non-event at the center of that TL here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians
 
The issue was is that it was flaws instead of flaw witch and that they would make what I planned latter on somewhat unrealistic. Hence why I feel compelled to go back to the drawing board. I'm not gonna send everything into the trash, allot of what I have already written will be reussed or ammended rather then recreate but I believe in doing anything I do well, or at least as well as I can, so I'm gonna take sometime to plan things again and come back with an ameliorated version of the TL. I have actually already planned a few of the more important changes and decided on some of things I will keep.

As an aside doing some revisithing on what I have already written actually motivate to revisite my first TL written here as well. Hoping it could attract more interest then the first time (If nothing else my improved writting skills in English should help).

Its more obscure and I can understand that canadian history be less entertaining for some then good old medieval warfare but its subject close to my earth as the TL is centered on my own community escaping our great historical tragedy so if you, or any other reader here would be willing to indulge me and give it a shot while I work on kill them all 2.0 at the same time I would really appreciate it.

People interesting on what its about can fin the event, or rather the non-event at the center of that TL here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians

I always love timelines which are more localized, so a Canadian TL would be greatly appreciated! I've got a few Wisconsin-centric TL ideas floating around in my head that I would love to take a stab at in the future (seeing as how I'm from there, my as Master's was in Upper Midwestern political history). I really do you you rework this, but an Arcadian TL would be great fun too, and a great chance for we readers to learn more about that topic!
 
I always love timelines which are more localized, so a Canadian TL would be greatly appreciated! I've got a few Wisconsin-centric TL ideas floating around in my head that I would love to take a stab at in the future (seeing as how I'm from there, my as Master's was in Upper Midwestern political history). I really do you you rework this, but an Arcadian TL would be great fun too, and a great chance for we readers to learn more about that topic!

I fully intend to come back to it eventually but not until I feel ready.

In the meantime, here is the other TL: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...of-providence-an-acadian-timeline-2-0.403097/
 
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