KGV and PoW v Bismarck at the Denmark Strait

Problem is that Rodney and King George V pounded Bismarck's upperworks to scrap. They did more than mission kill her, they destroyed her. Ok, not sunk, but as a fighting unit she was dead. You don't need to sink a ship to kill it. Destroy it's ability to make war and the result is the same, and that is what happened between Bismarck, Rodney and King George V when they met.

After that, Bismarck making it home is irevellent. She has 2+ years of repairs if she makes it. As had been posted here, without guns, even with 30+ knots going for her, she is unlikely to get home as she will be hounded by destroyers, aircraft and cruisers the whole way, who will fire torpedoes into her. Sooner or later her torpedo defence system will be overcome by acculuminated damage and she floods and sinks.

Well said and I'm glad someone's said it.

The ongoing myth/bullshit that "the rn didn't sink the Bismarck" is irrelevant, because at the point she was scuttled she had been reduced to a burning hulk with a mostly dead crew slowly going in circles.
 
That's one of the major flaws with Bismarck's design, ultimately. Extremely tough to sink, but that turned out to be utterly irrelevant since she was rapidly reduced to a hulk incapable of movement or of fighting - so what's the point beyond increasing the number of survivors in the water slightly?

Any ship hit like Bismarck will get either destroyed instantly, or be knocked out of any war for a seriously long duration, if not permanently. There is no design flaw here, as the amount of fire put into Bismarck was of such a content, no ship could survive it in any operational condition. (not even a Yamato). British gunnery at the time was very accurate and hit specific points with almost laser accuracy, rendering the Bismarck unable to defend herself quickly. There was nothing of a design flaw here, as it tells more about the level of skills of the British gunners than of the design of Bismarck. Just immagine replacing Bismarck by something of simmilar size, like a Iowa class Battleship, identical conditions, like no radar, also unable to steer and with the same fatigue and moral as the German Crew on Bismarck that day. Iowa will get sunk, or blown up, by gunfire alone most likely, having a different design capable of taking shellfire form long range, but not at the short range Bismarck was pounded. Even the much larger Yamato will be destroyed as a fighting unit fast under identical conditions, though she might remain afloat longer, until torpedohits could flood her compartments.
 
Last November I was at a wargames convention and one of the games being played was the Battle of the Denmark Strait with the OTL forces. The Germans were wiped out every time without loss to the British.

So after allowing for her thin armour was Hood simply unlucky in the OTL battle?
 
Last November I was at a wargames convention and one of the games being played was the Battle of the Denmark Strait with the OTL forces. The Germans were wiped out every time without loss to the British.

So after allowing for her thin armour was Hood simply unlucky in the OTL battle?

The Bismarck chase is a story replite with unlucky hits. The Hood's hit was just one of them. The mission killing bunker on the Bis was another. Then there's the torpedo hit on the rudder, the Suffolks hit on the main fire control, Rodney knocking out two turrets with the heavy hit forwards and so on.

As Warspite said, any ship, no matter what nation would have been in dire trouble in the same situation, even a monster like the Yamato would have been killed. The Iowa would have stood up to the long range fire better, but she wasn't built to take a pounding at the ranges it dropped down to, unlike the Bismarck's design which was still built with an eye on fairly short range engagements in mind.
 
So after allowing for her thin armour was Hood simply unlucky in the OTL battle?

Hoods vertical armour was fine for what she had been designed for a 12,000yard slugging match in the North Sea. She wasnt designed with long range plunging fire in mind and if Adm Holland had managed to get inside the range of plunging fire then I imagine she would have stood up to Bismarks shells reasonably well
 
We don't know the exact path of the fatal shell. Through the thin upper belt seems most likely, but I've heard that Hood's old main belt would also have been vulnerable to penetration as target inclination decreased as she proceeded though the turn to open her rear arcs.

Of course, you also have to hit the main belt in order to penetrate it. But that's luck not skill - skills gets you on target and straddling quickly, and keeps you there. Luck (assuming that your shell pattern is sensible) dictates what those straddles do...
 
We don't know the exact path of the fatal shell. Through the thin upper belt seems most likely, but I've heard that Hood's old main belt would also have been vulnerable to penetration as target inclination decreased as she proceeded though the turn to open her rear arcs.

Of course, you also have to hit the main belt in order to penetrate it. But that's luck not skill - skills gets you on target and straddling quickly, and keeps you there. Luck (assuming that your shell pattern is sensible) dictates what those straddles do...

The great Gary Player used to say "the more I practice the luckier I get"
 
The Bismarck chase is a story replite with unlucky hits. The Hood's hit was just one of them. The mission killing bunker on the Bis was another. Then there's the torpedo hit on the rudder, the Suffolks hit on the main fire control, Rodney knocking out two turrets with the heavy hit forwards and so on.

As Warspite said, any ship, no matter what nation would have been in dire trouble in the same situation, even a monster like the Yamato would have been killed. The Iowa would have stood up to the long range fire better, but she wasn't built to take a pounding at the ranges it dropped down to, unlike the Bismarck's design which was still built with an eye on fairly short range engagements in mind.

HMS Suffolk was refueling in Iceland on the 27th of May, 1941. I think you were misidentifying her with HMS Norfolk, which was the ship doing just that. Besides that, The three hits scored on the 24th of may by HMS Prince of Wales did more than just takingout her fuelsupply in the bowsection. It also caused a powergenerator to fail permamently, when a 14 inch shell broke through the sidearmor in the midship part, causing a boilerroom to shut down for some time and some other damage to the powerplantequipment, resulting in less reserve power for especially electrical systems. This was the hit that slowed down the ship to some 22 knots for a few hours, untill the boiler was fixed and restarted.
 
We don't know the exact path of the fatal shell. Through the thin upper belt seems most likely, but I've heard that Hood's old main belt would also have been vulnerable to penetration as target inclination decreased as she proceeded though the turn to open her rear arcs.

Of course, you also have to hit the main belt in order to penetrate it. But that's luck not skill - skills gets you on target and straddling quickly, and keeps you there. Luck (assuming that your shell pattern is sensible) dictates what those straddles do...
Hood had pretty good firing arcs for her rear turrets.
She could be well angled while being able to bring all guns to bear simultaneously.
 
The Bismarck chase is a story replite with unlucky hits. The Hood's hit was just one of them. The mission killing bunker on the Bis was another. Then there's the torpedo hit on the rudder, the Suffolks hit on the main fire control, Rodney knocking out two turrets with the heavy hit forwards and so on.

I don't think you can call any of that luck. WW2 battleship combat involved shooting half a ton of high explosives at Mach 2 at each other. Sometimes that has consequences.
 
I don't think you can call any of that luck. WW2 battleship combat involved shooting half a ton of high explosives at Mach 2 at each other. Sometimes that has consequences.
And when said heavy object moving at high speed hits another object physics takes over, yes. However I think the luck factor referred to here is the fact that such precise hits were made.

Think about it.

At Denmark Straight you are talking about two ships each steaming at around 30 knots, 12-15 miles apart, being tossed around by the sea, yet each side scores critical pinpoint hits whose results are far reaching.

For the Germans, it is the destruction of a ship. Many believe if Hood had turned a second sooner or later, the shell would not have hit the 4" magazine (I favour the 4" being hit and detonating the 15" magazine).

For the British, it is taking out the plumbing to Bismarck's forward fuel tanks. A foot above or below, forward or astern and would she have hit the pipe with such devistating consequences? Those pipes may only be 8" or 12" in diameter..... Smaller than the shell fired..... THAT is a pinpoint hit aka a very lucky hit at such a range.
 
However I think the luck factor referred to here is the fact that such precise hits were made.

It's hard to judge. Individual hits can be deemed lucky, but, as noted, heavy shells are intended to cause damage, and we not only tend to ignore the inconsequential hits but also the other possible hit locations that would have caused serious damage.

A proper statistical treatment is required, such as https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bismarck-Hood-Technical-Analysis-Perspective/dp/1781552312, which I haven't read :closedtongue:

It concluded that the British win in all situations other than when the Hood blows up (which isn't surprising), and that Hood blowing up after the 5th salvo was really quite improbable (90 salvoes required for a 95% chance of BOOM (presumably this ignores the effects of any flooding of magazines)).
 
And when said heavy object moving at high speed hits another object physics takes over, yes. However I think the luck factor referred to here is the fact that such precise hits were made.

Someone said it a few pages back. Skill is getting the shells into the area the target ship will be in 30 or so seconds after they are fired. This is known as a Straddle, luck is one of those 4, 5, 6, 8 or 10 shells hitting.

iirc the RN definition of a perfect straddle was 2 rounds short 2 shells long the line of shells was to be a diagonal line across the travel direction of the target. 3 or more splashes short meant range too short and vice versa.
 
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