KGV and PoW v Bismarck at the Denmark Strait

A possible AHTL: A fast battle group consisting of the aircraft carriers HMS ILLUSTRIOUS and INDISPUTABLE along with the battleships HMS KGV and POW the heavy cruiser HMS Gloucestershire and the light cruiser Manchester and 9 destroyers leave scapa flow at 18 knots when they are clear into the north sea,they increase speed to 32 knots and race for the Denmark straight.

The Battle group manage to get into position a head of the battleship Bismarck and the heavy cruiser Prinz eugan.
Except the KGV's couldn't make 32kts. They maxed out at 28.3kts (Although they could exceed this, but not by 4 kts).
 

hipper

Banned
The Royal Navy didn't have the tankers to refuel at sea.

more tankers than any other navy in 1939 and had been refuelling at sea since before the first world war

First 2000t OL Class Harbour Oilers


In 1908 the then Director of Stores Sir John Forsey was rumoured to have recommended the construction of a group of oil tankers for the Admiralty account and the 5-strong BURMA GROUP was the result, with BURMA herself having the distinction of being the first oil tanker ever to be constructed to the order of the Admiralty. These vessels were very similar but were in no way sister ships. BURMA was fitted out with the express object of oiling the British Fleet at sea, being capable of towing another vessel and supplying her with oil fuel, or else being towed by a Dreadnought and supplying her with oil fuel at the same time. She could fuel vessels alongside from four different positions at the same time and carried about 2,500 tons of oil in 12 tanks. She had 2 powerful pumps in her pump-room which were capable of discharging 400 tons of oil per hour. In addition, she was also fitted with electric lighting and steam heating and a powerful steam driven fan for the purpose of exhausting her tanks of heavy and dangerous vapours which remained after the oil had been discharged. She conducted a number of OAS experiments.

from http://historicalrfa.org/rfa-ship-classes
 
I like this thread, but one post in particular caught my eye:

KGV with 'Half' a POW as well? - Bismarck's clock is well and truly cleaned.
I don't think so, and here is why:

In OTL, the KGV + Rodney, attacking a damaged Bismarck, with an exhausted crew, jammed rudder, and low speed, could not sink her by naval gunfire, not even with 10 X 14" and 9 X 16" guns in action, despite the multiple torpedoes that had already hit her, both from carrier aircraft and surface ships, even with all that going for them, the RN failed to sink the Bismarck. That was the OTL Royal Navy performance.

So in this remake, the Bismarck is undamaged and can steam and maneuver as needed, and her crew isn't exhausted. Much more likely we see the Bismarck, KGV, and POW all being much more heavily damaged than the OTL battle of the Denmark Straight, with both sides withdrawing successfully back to base, but we won't be seeing the Bismarck sunk by the KGV + whatever portion of the POW's main armament is actually working!
 

hipper

Banned
I like this thread, but one post in particular caught my eye:

I don't think so, and here is why:

In OTL, the KGV + Rodney, attacking a damaged Bismarck, with an exhausted crew, jammed rudder, and low speed, could not sink her by naval gunfire, not even with 10 X 14" and 9 X 16" guns in action, despite the multiple torpedoes that had already hit her, both from carrier aircraft and surface ships, even with all that going for them, the RN failed to sink the Bismarck. That was the OTL Royal Navy performance.

So in this remake, the Bismarck is undamaged and can steam and maneuver as needed, and her crew isn't exhausted. Much more likely we see the Bismarck, KGV, and POW all being much more heavily damaged than the OTL battle of the Denmark Straight, with both sides withdrawing successfully back to base, but we won't be seeing the Bismarck sunk by the KGV + whatever portion of the POW's main armament is actually working!


no she would be sunk by the torpedoes of HMS Suffolk and the 10 destroyers to the North of the action, Or the Bismarck scuttles herself of course.

Edit ACHATES, ANTELOPE, ANTHONY, ECHO, ELECTRA, and ICARUS so six destroyers about 1/2 hour behind Hood.
 
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I like this thread, but one post in particular caught my eye:

I don't think so, and here is why:

In OTL, the KGV + Rodney, attacking a damaged Bismarck, with an exhausted crew, jammed rudder, and low speed, could not sink her by naval gunfire, not even with 10 X 14" and 9 X 16" guns in action, despite the multiple torpedoes that had already hit her, both from carrier aircraft and surface ships, even with all that going for them, the RN failed to sink the Bismarck. That was the OTL Royal Navy performance.

So in this remake, the Bismarck is undamaged and can steam and maneuver as needed, and her crew isn't exhausted. Much more likely we see the Bismarck, KGV, and POW all being much more heavily damaged than the OTL battle of the Denmark Straight, with both sides withdrawing successfully back to base, but we won't be seeing the Bismarck sunk by the KGV + whatever portion of the POW's main armament is actually working!

And this quote particularly caught my eye "the RN failed to sink the Bismarck"

Seriously - she hit an iceberg or something - because I seem to recall that she did sink!?

Like I said POW hit her 3 times - one of the hits was minor (damaged the aircraft catapult whioch some how was missed until the 26th) the other 2 mission killed her and slowed her to 28 knots and seriously reduced her range.

Any further damage along those lines and she is likely slowed further and if that is the case she gets mobbed by the RN (which is pretty much what happened OTL before she mysteriously sank for no apparent reason) - its their lake after all!
 
no she would be sunk by the torpedoes of HMS Suffolk and the 10 destroyers to the North of the action, Or the Bismarck scuttles herself of course.
what was the RN Destroyer commander's name again? Commander Vain or some such? If the OTL DD attacks didn't sink the Bismarck, why would these others succeed? What was the name of the RN Cruiser that torpedoed the Bismarck in OTL, the Dorsetchire or something? Now the Suffolk is going to succeed where the OTL ship failed?

wiki said:
Throughout that night, Bismarck was the target of intermittent torpedo attacks by the Tribal-class destroyers HMS Cossack, Sikh, Maori and Zulu, and the Polish destroyer ORP Piorun. Neither side scored a hit, but the constant worrying tactics of the British helped wear down the morale of the Germans and deepened the fatigue of an already exhausted crew.

And then...
wiki said:
So no, I don't see this. Read that as, not as something that is pre-ordained, and sure to happen, and 100% gur-anteed, gonna happen, no matter what. Could it happen, sure. Is it likely to happen, cannot say what the chances are, but surely we can all agree these chances are not going to be 100%, given what actually happened in OTL, right?

And this quote particularly caught my eye "the RN failed to sink the Bismarck"

Seriously - she hit an iceberg or something - because I seem to recall that she did sink!?

Like I said POW hit her 3 times - one of the hits was minor (damaged the aircraft catapult whioch some how was missed until the 26th) the other 2 mission killed her and slowed her to 28 knots and seriously reduced her range.

Any further damage along those lines and she is likely slowed further and if that is the case she gets mobbed by the RN (which is pretty much what happened OTL before she mysteriously sank for no apparent reason) - its their lake after all!
All sarcastic jokes aside, you know perfectly well what actually sank the Bismarck, see @hipper post above. In your own words, in OTL she was mission killed at DS, but in this ATL, she takes more damage, and KNOWS she cannot continue her sortie, and thus heads for home.

The way I see this is, the redo leaves the Germans knowing they cannot continue their sortie, and thus they turn back. Given that the only reason the RN even got a second chance, was because the German admiral broke radio silence and gave away his position, I think it more likely that history repeats itself, and the battle doesn't go according to either nations plans.
 
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I like this thread, but one post in particular caught my eye:

I don't think so, and here is why:

In OTL, the KGV + Rodney, attacking a damaged Bismarck, with an exhausted crew, jammed rudder, and low speed, could not sink her by naval gunfire, not even with 10 X 14" and 9 X 16" guns in action, despite the multiple torpedoes that had already hit her, both from carrier aircraft and surface ships, even with all that going for them, the RN failed to sink the Bismarck. That was the OTL Royal Navy performance.

So in this remake, the Bismarck is undamaged and can steam and maneuver as needed, and her crew isn't exhausted. Much more likely we see the Bismarck, KGV, and POW all being much more heavily damaged than the OTL battle of the Denmark Straight, with both sides withdrawing successfully back to base, but we won't be seeing the Bismarck sunk by the KGV + whatever portion of the POW's main armament is actually working!
Didn't need to sink her.
Just mission kill her.
If the 3 hits she reviewed at Denmark Strait, 1 mission killed her.
Rodney's first few hits on Bismarck completely destroyed her fighting ability.
The shock from her own guns damaged her radar.
Bismarck was extremely hard to sink, but pretty easy to mission kill.
 
Didn't need to sink her.
Just mission kill her.
If the 3 hits she reviewed at Denmark Strait, 1 mission killed her.
Rodney's first few hits on Bismarck completely destroyed her fighting ability.
The shock from her own guns damaged her radar.
Bismarck was extremely hard to sink, but pretty easy to mission kill.
Put it like that, and I have to agree!

Well said!
 
what was the RN Destroyer commander's name again? Commander Vain or some such? If the OTL DD attacks didn't sink the Bismarck, why would these others succeed? What was the name of the RN Cruiser that torpedoed the Bismarck in OTL, the Dorsetchire or something? Now the Suffolk is going to succeed where the OTL ship failed?



All sarcastic jokes aside, you know perfectly well what actually sank the Bismarck, see @hipper post above.

The way I see this is, the redo leaves the Germans knowing they cannot continue their sortie, and thus they turn back. Given that the only reason the RN even got a second chance, was because the German admiral broke radio silence and gave away his position, I think it more likely that history repeats itself, and the battle doesn't go according to either nations plans.

Ok. I envisage what most likely happens is that in this example of KGV replacing Hood at Denmark straits - the BBs shoot the shit out of each other for an hour or so (with the superior number of British guns paying dividends) and then the 2 heavy Crusiers, 5 odd DDs and 9 Swordfish and what ever else turns up to finish the German ships off - who by that point are too badly damaged to escape or offer meaningful resistance.

KGV and POW spend several months in drydock - Hitler eats another rug
 
Ok. I envisage what most likely happens is that in this example of KGV replacing Hood at Denmark straits - the BBs shoot the shit out of each other for an hour or so (with the superior number of British guns paying dividends) and then the 2 heavy Crusiers, 5 odd DDs and 9 Swordfish and what ever else turns up to finish the German ships off - who by that point are too badly damaged to escape or offer meaningful resistance.

KGV and POW spend several months in drydock - Hitler eats another rug
Unlikely Bismarck retains her ability to fight for that long, especially with 20 guns shooting at her.
PoW found the range quickly OTL, its only a matter of time.
 
The Royal Navy didn't have the tankers to refuel at sea.
KVG and POW cant make 32Kn anyway so we are in a very different timeline as well as the small point of HMS INDISPUTABLE, if we can add capital ships why not a tanker after all GB had plenty of slow civilian ones so its just fitting transfer gear....
 
KVG and POW cant make 32Kn anyway so we are in a very different timeline as well as the small point of HMS INDISPUTABLE, if we can add capital ships why not a tanker after all GB had plenty of slow civilian ones so its just fitting transfer gear....
Add some Treaty Vanguards and you've got yourself a deal ;)
 
more tankers than any other navy in 1939 and had been refuelling at sea since before the first world war

First 2000t OL Class Harbour Oilers


In 1908 the then Director of Stores Sir John Forsey was rumoured to have recommended the construction of a group of oil tankers for the Admiralty account and the 5-strong BURMA GROUP was the result, with BURMA herself having the distinction of being the first oil tanker ever to be constructed to the order of the Admiralty. These vessels were very similar but were in no way sister ships. BURMA was fitted out with the express object of oiling the British Fleet at sea, being capable of towing another vessel and supplying her with oil fuel, or else being towed by a Dreadnought and supplying her with oil fuel at the same time. She could fuel vessels alongside from four different positions at the same time and carried about 2,500 tons of oil in 12 tanks. She had 2 powerful pumps in her pump-room which were capable of discharging 400 tons of oil per hour. In addition, she was also fitted with electric lighting and steam heating and a powerful steam driven fan for the purpose of exhausting her tanks of heavy and dangerous vapours which remained after the oil had been discharged. She conducted a number of OAS experiments.

from http://historicalrfa.org/rfa-ship-classes
Maybe convert an R class BB or one of the scrapped 13.5" gunned BC's into a tanker. I seem to recall reading of plans for armoured tankers in WW1 for fast armoured tankers for a planned sortie into the Baltic.
 
I like this thread, but one post in particular caught my eye:

I don't think so, and here is why:

In OTL, the KGV + Rodney, attacking a damaged Bismarck, with an exhausted crew, jammed rudder, and low speed, could not sink her by naval gunfire, not even with 10 X 14" and 9 X 16" guns in action, despite the multiple torpedoes that had already hit her, both from carrier aircraft and surface ships, even with all that going for them, the RN failed to sink the Bismarck. That was the OTL Royal Navy performance.

So in this remake, the Bismarck is undamaged and can steam and maneuver as needed, and her crew isn't exhausted. Much more likely we see the Bismarck, KGV, and POW all being much more heavily damaged than the OTL battle of the Denmark Straight, with both sides withdrawing successfully back to base, but we won't be seeing the Bismarck sunk by the KGV + whatever portion of the POW's main armament is actually working!
Problem is that Rodney and King George V pounded Bismarck's upperworks to scrap. They did more than mission kill her, they destroyed her. Ok, not sunk, but as a fighting unit she was dead. You don't need to sink a ship to kill it. Destroy it's ability to make war and the result is the same, and that is what happened between Bismarck, Rodney and King George V when they met.

After that, Bismarck making it home is irevellent. She has 2+ years of repairs if she makes it. As had been posted here, without guns, even with 30+ knots going for her, she is unlikely to get home as she will be hounded by destroyers, aircraft and cruisers the whole way, who will fire torpedoes into her. Sooner or later her torpedo defence system will be overcome by acculuminated damage and she floods and sinks.
 
Problem is that Rodney and King George V pounded Bismarck's upperworks to scrap. They did more than mission kill her, they destroyed her. Ok, not sunk, but as a fighting unit she was dead. You don't need to sink a ship to kill it. Destroy it's ability to make war and the result is the same, and that is what happened between Bismarck, Rodney and King George V when they met.

After that, Bismarck making it home is irevellent. She has 2+ years of repairs if she makes it. As had been posted here, without guns, even with 30+ knots going for her, she is unlikely to get home as she will be hounded by destroyers, aircraft and cruisers the whole way, who will fire torpedoes into her. Sooner or later her torpedo defence system will be overcome by acculuminated damage and she floods and sinks.
That's one of the major flaws with Bismarck's design, ultimately. Extremely tough to sink, but that turned out to be utterly irrelevant since she was rapidly reduced to a hulk incapable of movement or of fighting - so what's the point beyond increasing the number of survivors in the water slightly?
 
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