KGV and PoW v Bismarck at the Denmark Strait

12 x 14" would mean thinner or less armour. POW might not have survived without the extra armour the twin turret allowed.
 
12 x 14" would mean thinner or less armour. POW might not have survived without the extra armour the twin turret allowed.
True, and that was the reason for changing the design in the first place.

OTOH if she had been fully functional she might have scored more hits on the Bismarck preventing her from scoring as many hits on PoW in the first place. Though PoW might have been sunk more easily in December 1941.

But if the action proceeded as the OTL battle then Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are firing at KGV and even with the reduced armour scheme of the twelve gun version she will still be harder to sink than Hood. Also two KGVs built to the twelve gun scheme have a combined total of sixteen forward firing main guns, against twelve for the KGVs as built and ten for Hood and PoW in the OTL battle.
 

hipper

Banned
Both ships were due to be delivered on 1st July 1940, which was 3½ years to the day after they were laid down, which in turn was the day after the 1930 London Treaty expired.

AFAIK the late delivery was due to late delivery of the 14" gun turrets, which in turn was due to the Admiralty changing the design from one armed with nine 15" to one armed with twelve 14" and then to one with ten 14". The delay being that the new turrets had to be designed before manufacturing could start.

It's not in the OP, but if they had stuck to twelve 14", both ships might have been completed a few months earlier, which would have given more time for PoW to work up and both ships time to sort out their turrets, because AFAIK designing the twin 14" turret took 6 months.

POW was delayed due to bomb damage, agree that the change from3x4 to 2x4 + 1 x2 delayed completion the KGV class was never ever designed with 15" guns. The 14 " turrets were ordered in 1936
 
Actually HMS Prince of Wales at one time had no main guns in operation, during her fight with Bismarck, as both quadruple turrets continued to have problems and the remaining twin turret occasionally had defects as wel

Great info, but I can't see any problems with B turret, so at what point did POW have no main guns in operation?
 
Great info, but I can't see any problems with B turret, so at what point did POW have no main guns in operation?

During the phase of turning away from Bismarck, so in theory only Y turret could range, though it was out of action at the time, due to mechanical and electrical troubles..
 
POW was delayed due to bomb damage, agree that the change from3x4 to 2x4 + 1 x2 delayed completion the KGV class was never ever designed with 15" guns. The 14 " turrets were ordered in 1936
Fair enough.

It's not something I have studied in great detail, but my understanding was that between the Nelson class and the King George V class the sequence was:
  1. A design displacing 25,000 tons and armed with 12" guns to keep the cost of new construction down;
  2. A design displacing 35,000 tons and armed with nine 15" in 3 triple turrets and a secondary armament of 6" LA guns
  3. Then just before the second London Naval Conference it was decided to change to twelve 14" guns in three triple turrets and a secondary armament of 5.25" DP guns. This is the design that was actually approved by the Board of Admiralty and ordered in the 1936-37 and 1937-38 building programmes;
  4. AFAIK the triple 15" turret had been designed and the drawings were ready to go to the manufacturers at the end of 1935, but there was a delay of several months while the quad 14" turret was designed and then another delay while the twin 14" turret was designed.
When at school I read a history of battleships by Anthony Preston that included the building schedules for KGV and POW. I wish it had written it down because it showed the projected dates for fitting the turrets and the actual dates.
 

hipper

Banned
KGV with 'Half' a POW as well? - Bismarck's clock is well and truly cleaned

In the original battle the Hood and POW arrived at a disadvantage having to drive into waves at speed which caused a great deal of spray that obscured the main rangefinders (although Hoods first salvo of 4 x 15" shells did bracket PE) - also Hood was totally worn out capable of only 28 knots and i am not sure if that was sustainable - KGV and POW are Brand new and both capable of sustaining 28+ knots so given the same start they might have arrived ahead of the Bismarck and PE (as planned)

Also the 'turn' had to be made at a distance where Plunging fire would not threaten the Hood as much (in order that the Bismarcks fire was striking the Belt and not the hull) - the KGV and POW could have made the turn much sooner (ie at further range as their deck armour and protection was vastly superior) thus bringing their rear turrets into play and reducing the spray impacting the Directors (which again were superior to the Hoods)

POW hit Bismarck 3 times - 1 of the hits did little damage - although it did disable Bismarck's Aircraft - the remaining 2 mission killed the German ship and reduced her speed to 28 knots

How many times would KGV hit Bismarck? Would further hits reduce her speed more to the point where she could not escape the closing net?

Lastly POWs 5.25" guns were largely ineffective OTL largely due to damage and malfunctions impacting her secondary directors

KGV having been worked up would have been able to engage PE with her secondaries which were capable of causing damage to the Cruiser and again any hit that reduced her speed would very likely result in the eventual loss of the Cruiser

Lets hope so - Puget Sound please :)


Hood had just come ou5 of a 6 week refit both, Hood and the POW held revolutions for 29.1 knots for an hour prior to intercepting a Bismark.
 
Hood had just come ou5 of a 6 week refit both, Hood and the POW held revolutions for 29.1 knots for an hour prior to intercepting a Bismark.

Yes that's correct - I didn't know that back then

But I would still place money on KGV and POW being faster on the day - the more modern power plants on the KGVs were capable of being run well over their designed RPM for extended periods of time

Even the older worn out Rodney (who was on her way to the USA for a much needed refit) was able to generate 25+ knots during the chase and this on a vessel designed for 23 knots

Also the directors and radar on the KGV and POW were superior and higher up so would have been less impacted by the spray

In addition the KGV and POW had the ability to link gunnery tables (I have no idea how this was done - I just recall reading about it - apparently Hood did not do this at Denmark Straits - although she still managed a first salvo straddle of PE)
 
Yes that's correct - I didn't know that back then

But I would still place money on KGV and POW being faster on the day - the more modern power plants on the KGVs were capable of being run well over their designed RPM for extended periods of time

Even the older worn out Rodney (who was on her way to the USA for a much needed refit) was able to generate 25+ knots during the chase and this on a vessel designed for 23 knots

Also the directors and radar on the KGV and POW were superior and higher up so would have been less impacted by the spray

In addition the KGV and POW had the ability to link gunnery tables (I have no idea how this was done - I just recall reading about it - apparently Hood did not do this at Denmark Straits - although she still managed a first salvo straddle of PE)


Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)

About firecontroll, HMS Hood had never been refitted to ship in a more modern firecontrol and director. She still had the original sets, as when commissioned in 1920, which was seriously dated in 1941. One main issue was the relatively low hight of the main director, which was mounted on the conningtower, forward of the forwar tripod mast, which held a smaller director with less capabilities. On the King George V class the main director was moved to the highest point in the ship, providing more accurate intell. at longer ranges.

Also see this links:
http://www.hmshood.com/ship/fire_control.htm
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Director Part III.pdf

http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part 1.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part II.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX TWO.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX THREE.pdf
 
@HMS Warspite you are correct on the speed of HMS Rodney when you said,

Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)

Her top speed was 23.3 knots and during the chase of the Bismarck she did 22.5 knots in her condition for three hours.
 

hipper

Banned
Yes that's correct - I didn't know that back then

But I would still place money on KGV and POW being faster on the day - the more modern power plants on the KGVs were capable of being run well over their designed RPM for extended periods of time

Even the older worn out Rodney (who was on her way to the USA for a much needed refit) was able to generate 25+ knots during the chase and this on a vessel designed for 23 knots

Also the directors and radar on the KGV and POW were superior and higher up so would have been less impacted by the spray

In addition the KGV and POW had the ability to link gunnery tables (I have no idea how this was done - I just recall reading about it - apparently Hood did not do this at Denmark Straits - although she still managed a first salvo straddle of PE)

The linked gunnery tables was a method where two ships could fire at the same target, the two ships sail 8nn line ahead and the lead ship radios her range estimates to the tail ship. both ships fire together at a signal from the lead ship Achilles and Ajax did it against the Graff Spee
 
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Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)

About firecontroll, HMS Hood had never been refitted to ship in a more modern firecontrol and director. She still had the original sets, as when commissioned in 1920, which was seriously dated in 1941. One main issue was the relatively low hight of the main director, which was mounted on the conningtower, forward of the forwar tripod mast, which held a smaller director with less capabilities. On the King George V class the main director was moved to the highest point in the ship, providing more accurate intell. at longer ranges.

Also see this links:
http://www.hmshood.com/ship/fire_control.htm
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Director Part III.pdf

http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part 1.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part II.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX TWO.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX THREE.pdf


Thanks for the links on the fire control.

As for her speed I read an account which quoted her XO (Commander Grindle) a few years back were he claimed she met her design speed during the chase and at one point exceeded it by 2 knots which would imply 25 knots - but a 10 minute google search implies she did not and while able to outrun her escorts due to sea state she did have to ask KGV to slow down to less than 22 knots the night before the battle as she could not keep up.

And I cannot find that quote! Myth busted.

She also had to seriously MacGyver her machinery in order to do even that as well as conduct hull repairs on the fly.
 
Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)

About firecontroll, HMS Hood had never been refitted to ship in a more modern firecontrol and director. She still had the original sets, as when commissioned in 1920, which was seriously dated in 1941. One main issue was the relatively low hight of the main director, which was mounted on the conningtower, forward of the forwar tripod mast, which held a smaller director with less capabilities. On the King George V class the main director was moved to the highest point in the ship, providing more accurate intell. at longer ranges.

Also see this links:
http://www.hmshood.com/ship/fire_control.htm
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Director Part III.pdf

http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part 1.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part II.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX TWO.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX THREE.pdf
So was it not possible to sync Hood and PoWs Fire Control then?
I read somewhere that it was rather a case of Holland deciding not too.
Quite an error, either way.
In spite of Hood's lack of modern fire control, she still straddled PE with her first salvo, the rest of the shots missing as they plotted from PE to Bismarck, and this can be seen from where her shots landed.
As stated before, Hood and POW clocked 29 knots on the intercept course. Quite high for both ships, especially considering POW was brand new, and forcing the engines with a green crew is a lot.
Meanwhile, Hood's speed is iffy. 31 to 32 knots when completed, but now an extra 5000 tons and some 20 years added. She's still making 29 knots. Is that sustainable? Probably not, but I'd say 28 would be.
Now, Regarding if KGV and PoW made the Intercept, it doesn't look good for Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. Let's presume KGV is the lead ship.
Since OTL PoW realised Bismarck was behind PE, it's likely both ships fire at Bismarck.
They are also firing full broadsides, since there is no mad dash to get into Hood's immunity zone.
Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.

We can also presume Prinz Eugen will try a torpedo run. Not so fast though, since she'll have 16 5.25 inch guns spamming shells at her. If she starts getting too close for comfort, it's likely one, if not both ships focus on her, to make sure they don't get torped. Prinz Eugen doesn't escape.
This is when I see Bismarck making a run for it.
She might be down a few knots, but she can at least maintain the Distance between her and the KGVs.
Presumably she's running back through the Denmark Strait, towards Hood and Repulse.
Swordfish will probably be launched first for an attack, to try and slow her down.
It may or may not succeed.
I'd say Hood and Repulse can intercept.
Both capable of 29 knots, and probably flogging the engines to do more, Holland will try and cross Bismarck's T. I'd say the plan is to get Bismarck into battle so the KGVs can catch up.

The question for Lutzens is which ship does he fire on. His choice (initially) is a ship that everyone wrongly believes is invincible, and seems comparible with Bismarck on paper, or a ship with less firepower, and less armour than the former. Not to mention she's also an older ship, which seemed to be key to the Admiral's idea of which ship to fire on. (Hood, and later Rodney) If he chooses to fire on Repulse...it's probably not a good day for Repulse.
It depends on many things.
How quickly the KGVs get there.
If Hood and Repulse manage to land some good hits on Bismarck.
If Bismarck gets a golden BB on Repulse, or possibly Hood.
The damage Bismarck has already taken.
I don't see Repulse coming out of it well, if at all.
But I don't see Bismarck coming out of it either.
She might get away from Hood, but I'd say at the stage her speed would be down the the British will catch her. A few more torpedo runs from Swordfish probably secure that.
 
So was it not possible to sync Hood and PoWs Fire Control then?
I read somewhere that it was rather a case of Holland deciding not too.
Quite an error, either way.
In spite of Hood's lack of modern fire control, she still straddled PE with her first salvo, the rest of the shots missing as they plotted from PE to Bismarck, and this can be seen from where her shots landed.
As stated before, Hood and POW clocked 29 knots on the intercept course. Quite high for both ships, especially considering POW was brand new, and forcing the engines with a green crew is a lot.
Meanwhile, Hood's speed is iffy. 31 to 32 knots when completed, but now an extra 5000 tons and some 20 years added. She's still making 29 knots. Is that sustainable? Probably not, but I'd say 28 would be.
Now, Regarding if KGV and PoW made the Intercept, it doesn't look good for Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. Let's presume KGV is the lead ship.
Since OTL PoW realised Bismarck was behind PE, it's likely both ships fire at Bismarck.
They are also firing full broadsides, since there is no mad dash to get into Hood's immunity zone.
Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.

We can also presume Prinz Eugen will try a torpedo run. Not so fast though, since she'll have 16 5.25 inch guns spamming shells at her. If she starts getting too close for comfort, it's likely one, if not both ships focus on her, to make sure they don't get torped. Prinz Eugen doesn't escape.
This is when I see Bismarck making a run for it.
She might be down a few knots, but she can at least maintain the Distance between her and the KGVs.
Presumably she's running back through the Denmark Strait, towards Hood and Repulse.
Swordfish will probably be launched first for an attack, to try and slow her down.
It may or may not succeed.
I'd say Hood and Repulse can intercept.
Both capable of 29 knots, and probably flogging the engines to do more, Holland will try and cross Bismarck's T. I'd say the plan is to get Bismarck into battle so the KGVs can catch up.

The question for Lutzens is which ship does he fire on. His choice (initially) is a ship that everyone wrongly believes is invincible, and seems comparible with Bismarck on paper, or a ship with less firepower, and less armour than the former. Not to mention she's also an older ship, which seemed to be key to the Admiral's idea of which ship to fire on. (Hood, and later Rodney) If he chooses to fire on Repulse...it's probably not a good day for Repulse.
It depends on many things.
How quickly the KGVs get there.
If Hood and Repulse manage to land some good hits on Bismarck.
If Bismarck gets a golden BB on Repulse, or possibly Hood.
The damage Bismarck has already taken.
I don't see Repulse coming out of it well, if at all.
But I don't see Bismarck coming out of it either.
She might get away from Hood, but I'd say at the stage her speed would be down the the British will catch her. A few more torpedo runs from Swordfish probably secure that.

Did any of the other torpedoes that hit Bismarck from early Swordfish and Albacore strikes do any consequential damage?
 
Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.

Years ago I read in some book that while German gunnery in both WWI and WWII tended to be excellent due to a combination of well trained personnel and good equipment (fire controls, optics, etc.), their equipment also tended to be quite fragile and therefore their accuracy tended to fall off dramatically as soon as their ships started taking hits. Disclaimer - I am reaching into the dark recesses of my alcohol addled brain so it is possible I remembering things wrong.
 
Did any of the other torpedoes that hit Bismarck from early Swordfish and Albacore strikes do any consequential damage?
Considering one of the attacks ended up going to Sheffield instead of Bismarck, no.
One torpedo hit amidships, but did little damage.
Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.

Years ago I read in some book that while German gunnery in both WWI and WWII tended to be excellent due to a combination of well trained personnel and good equipment (fire controls, optics, etc.), their equipment also tended to be quite fragile and therefore their accuracy tended to fall off dramatically as soon as their ships started taking hits. Disclaimer - I am reaching into the dark recesses of my alcohol addled brain so it is possible I remembering things wrong.
No, indeed you are correct. German Gunnery was very good, but the equipment was so fragile, that even the firing of Bismarck's guns against the cruisers damaged the radar.
Despite this, Bismarck's FC was still very good, although Rodney's hit to it obviously destroyed any chance of doing any damage to the British ships.
So its likely any hits in the area if the forward, or aft superstructure would effect Bismarck's firing by a large margin.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.

Years ago I read in some book that while German gunnery in both WWI and WWII tended to be excellent due to a combination of well trained personnel and good equipment (fire controls, optics, etc.), their equipment also tended to be quite fragile and therefore their accuracy tended to fall off dramatically as soon as their ships started taking hits. Disclaimer - I am reaching into the dark recesses of my alcohol addled brain so it is possible I remembering things wrong.
There was also the issue that, as good as the German optics were on their Rangefinders, they also tended to cause severe eye strain and the personal had to be rotated out every few minutes or they would become unable to give accurate ranges.
 
There was also the issue that, as good as the German optics were on their Rangefinders, they also tended to cause severe eye strain and the personal had to be rotated out every few minutes or they would become unable to give accurate ranges.

That's interesting...
 
If Both ships are hitting Bismarck and PE does a torpedo charge then they might switch targets and engage her with the 14" main guns - it would not take that many hits to cripple PE!

Personally I think Holland should have stayed in touch and waited for KGV + whatever else was available and even then allowed a torpedo strike or 2 to take some wind out of Bismarck's sails before moving in with 4 Capital ships and multiple Cruisers and DDs

Never ever fight fair if you can help it
 
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