12 x 14" would mean thinner or less armour. POW might not have survived without the extra armour the twin turret allowed.
True, and that was the reason for changing the design in the first place.12 x 14" would mean thinner or less armour. POW might not have survived without the extra armour the twin turret allowed.
Both ships were due to be delivered on 1st July 1940, which was 3½ years to the day after they were laid down, which in turn was the day after the 1930 London Treaty expired.
AFAIK the late delivery was due to late delivery of the 14" gun turrets, which in turn was due to the Admiralty changing the design from one armed with nine 15" to one armed with twelve 14" and then to one with ten 14". The delay being that the new turrets had to be designed before manufacturing could start.
It's not in the OP, but if they had stuck to twelve 14", both ships might have been completed a few months earlier, which would have given more time for PoW to work up and both ships time to sort out their turrets, because AFAIK designing the twin 14" turret took 6 months.
Actually HMS Prince of Wales at one time had no main guns in operation, during her fight with Bismarck, as both quadruple turrets continued to have problems and the remaining twin turret occasionally had defects as wel
Great info, but I can't see any problems with B turret, so at what point did POW have no main guns in operation?
Fair enough.POW was delayed due to bomb damage, agree that the change from3x4 to 2x4 + 1 x2 delayed completion the KGV class was never ever designed with 15" guns. The 14 " turrets were ordered in 1936
Yes it was. See this link.POW was delayed due to bomb damage, agree that the change from3x4 to 2x4 + 1 x2 delayed completion the KGV class was never ever designed with 15" guns. The 14 " turrets were ordered in 1936
KGV with 'Half' a POW as well? - Bismarck's clock is well and truly cleaned
In the original battle the Hood and POW arrived at a disadvantage having to drive into waves at speed which caused a great deal of spray that obscured the main rangefinders (although Hoods first salvo of 4 x 15" shells did bracket PE) - also Hood was totally worn out capable of only 28 knots and i am not sure if that was sustainable - KGV and POW are Brand new and both capable of sustaining 28+ knots so given the same start they might have arrived ahead of the Bismarck and PE (as planned)
Also the 'turn' had to be made at a distance where Plunging fire would not threaten the Hood as much (in order that the Bismarcks fire was striking the Belt and not the hull) - the KGV and POW could have made the turn much sooner (ie at further range as their deck armour and protection was vastly superior) thus bringing their rear turrets into play and reducing the spray impacting the Directors (which again were superior to the Hoods)
POW hit Bismarck 3 times - 1 of the hits did little damage - although it did disable Bismarck's Aircraft - the remaining 2 mission killed the German ship and reduced her speed to 28 knots
How many times would KGV hit Bismarck? Would further hits reduce her speed more to the point where she could not escape the closing net?
Lastly POWs 5.25" guns were largely ineffective OTL largely due to damage and malfunctions impacting her secondary directors
KGV having been worked up would have been able to engage PE with her secondaries which were capable of causing damage to the Cruiser and again any hit that reduced her speed would very likely result in the eventual loss of the Cruiser
Lets hope so - Puget Sound please![]()
Hood had just come ou5 of a 6 week refit both, Hood and the POW held revolutions for 29.1 knots for an hour prior to intercepting a Bismark.
Yes that's correct - I didn't know that back then
But I would still place money on KGV and POW being faster on the day - the more modern power plants on the KGVs were capable of being run well over their designed RPM for extended periods of time
Even the older worn out Rodney (who was on her way to the USA for a much needed refit) was able to generate 25+ knots during the chase and this on a vessel designed for 23 knots
Also the directors and radar on the KGV and POW were superior and higher up so would have been less impacted by the spray
In addition the KGV and POW had the ability to link gunnery tables (I have no idea how this was done - I just recall reading about it - apparently Hood did not do this at Denmark Straits - although she still managed a first salvo straddle of PE)
Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)
Yes that's correct - I didn't know that back then
But I would still place money on KGV and POW being faster on the day - the more modern power plants on the KGVs were capable of being run well over their designed RPM for extended periods of time
Even the older worn out Rodney (who was on her way to the USA for a much needed refit) was able to generate 25+ knots during the chase and this on a vessel designed for 23 knots
Also the directors and radar on the KGV and POW were superior and higher up so would have been less impacted by the spray
In addition the KGV and POW had the ability to link gunnery tables (I have no idea how this was done - I just recall reading about it - apparently Hood did not do this at Denmark Straits - although she still managed a first salvo straddle of PE)
Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)
About firecontroll, HMS Hood had never been refitted to ship in a more modern firecontrol and director. She still had the original sets, as when commissioned in 1920, which was seriously dated in 1941. One main issue was the relatively low hight of the main director, which was mounted on the conningtower, forward of the forwar tripod mast, which held a smaller director with less capabilities. On the King George V class the main director was moved to the highest point in the ship, providing more accurate intell. at longer ranges.
Also see this links:
http://www.hmshood.com/ship/fire_control.htm
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Director Part III.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part 1.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part II.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX TWO.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX THREE.pdf
So was it not possible to sync Hood and PoWs Fire Control then?Some remarks: HMS Rodney was indeed badly needing an engine refit and at the time did not make her designed speed, as something around 21 knots was the best she could in a normal seastate (The 25 knots you speak of is over the top, as the ship never made this speed, nor even on trials when newly build.)
About firecontroll, HMS Hood had never been refitted to ship in a more modern firecontrol and director. She still had the original sets, as when commissioned in 1920, which was seriously dated in 1941. One main issue was the relatively low hight of the main director, which was mounted on the conningtower, forward of the forwar tripod mast, which held a smaller director with less capabilities. On the King George V class the main director was moved to the highest point in the ship, providing more accurate intell. at longer ranges.
Also see this links:
http://www.hmshood.com/ship/fire_control.htm
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Director Part III.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part 1.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/Gunnery Directors Part II.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX TWO.pdf
http://www.godfreydykes.info/FIRE CONTROL BOX THREE.pdf
So was it not possible to sync Hood and PoWs Fire Control then?
I read somewhere that it was rather a case of Holland deciding not too.
Quite an error, either way.
In spite of Hood's lack of modern fire control, she still straddled PE with her first salvo, the rest of the shots missing as they plotted from PE to Bismarck, and this can be seen from where her shots landed.
As stated before, Hood and POW clocked 29 knots on the intercept course. Quite high for both ships, especially considering POW was brand new, and forcing the engines with a green crew is a lot.
Meanwhile, Hood's speed is iffy. 31 to 32 knots when completed, but now an extra 5000 tons and some 20 years added. She's still making 29 knots. Is that sustainable? Probably not, but I'd say 28 would be.
Now, Regarding if KGV and PoW made the Intercept, it doesn't look good for Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. Let's presume KGV is the lead ship.
Since OTL PoW realised Bismarck was behind PE, it's likely both ships fire at Bismarck.
They are also firing full broadsides, since there is no mad dash to get into Hood's immunity zone.
Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.
We can also presume Prinz Eugen will try a torpedo run. Not so fast though, since she'll have 16 5.25 inch guns spamming shells at her. If she starts getting too close for comfort, it's likely one, if not both ships focus on her, to make sure they don't get torped. Prinz Eugen doesn't escape.
This is when I see Bismarck making a run for it.
She might be down a few knots, but she can at least maintain the Distance between her and the KGVs.
Presumably she's running back through the Denmark Strait, towards Hood and Repulse.
Swordfish will probably be launched first for an attack, to try and slow her down.
It may or may not succeed.
I'd say Hood and Repulse can intercept.
Both capable of 29 knots, and probably flogging the engines to do more, Holland will try and cross Bismarck's T. I'd say the plan is to get Bismarck into battle so the KGVs can catch up.
The question for Lutzens is which ship does he fire on. His choice (initially) is a ship that everyone wrongly believes is invincible, and seems comparible with Bismarck on paper, or a ship with less firepower, and less armour than the former. Not to mention she's also an older ship, which seemed to be key to the Admiral's idea of which ship to fire on. (Hood, and later Rodney) If he chooses to fire on Repulse...it's probably not a good day for Repulse.
It depends on many things.
How quickly the KGVs get there.
If Hood and Repulse manage to land some good hits on Bismarck.
If Bismarck gets a golden BB on Repulse, or possibly Hood.
The damage Bismarck has already taken.
I don't see Repulse coming out of it well, if at all.
But I don't see Bismarck coming out of it either.
She might get away from Hood, but I'd say at the stage her speed would be down the the British will catch her. A few more torpedo runs from Swordfish probably secure that.
Considering one of the attacks ended up going to Sheffield instead of Bismarck, no.Did any of the other torpedoes that hit Bismarck from early Swordfish and Albacore strikes do any consequential damage?
No, indeed you are correct. German Gunnery was very good, but the equipment was so fragile, that even the firing of Bismarck's guns against the cruisers damaged the radar.Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.
Years ago I read in some book that while German gunnery in both WWI and WWII tended to be excellent due to a combination of well trained personnel and good equipment (fire controls, optics, etc.), their equipment also tended to be quite fragile and therefore their accuracy tended to fall off dramatically as soon as their ships started taking hits. Disclaimer - I am reaching into the dark recesses of my alcohol addled brain so it is possible I remembering things wrong.
There was also the issue that, as good as the German optics were on their Rangefinders, they also tended to cause severe eye strain and the personal had to be rotated out every few minutes or they would become unable to give accurate ranges.Judging by the fact almost every hit Bismarck took prior to getting the shit kicked out of her in her final battle crippled her in some way (PoWs hit to the fuel tank, Swordfish hit to the Rudder, Rodney's shot to the fire control and the hit that took out two of her turrets) we can assume Bismarck takes a hit, or multiple hits, that seriously damage her ability to fight.
Years ago I read in some book that while German gunnery in both WWI and WWII tended to be excellent due to a combination of well trained personnel and good equipment (fire controls, optics, etc.), their equipment also tended to be quite fragile and therefore their accuracy tended to fall off dramatically as soon as their ships started taking hits. Disclaimer - I am reaching into the dark recesses of my alcohol addled brain so it is possible I remembering things wrong.
There was also the issue that, as good as the German optics were on their Rangefinders, they also tended to cause severe eye strain and the personal had to be rotated out every few minutes or they would become unable to give accurate ranges.