Keynes' Cruisers

[mudhead]

under-armed and unarmored

Typo: under-armoured

most of the warhead’s power was dissipated by the torpedo defense system.

The Pugliese system never apparently worked as per designed, due to poor manufacturing.

On good days, someone would throw a football onto a field for an hour of recreation for the boys who still had some energy after digging all day

Not in the summer - no English schoolboy would play anything but cricket at this time of the year, in the 1940s (or even the '60s - it was rugby in the autumn and spring terms, then cricket until the end of August).

 

[Donald Reaver]

I did not know I could do that

No harm in pm'ing a mod to move it, they move threads all the time, usually for posting in the wrong forum. Say why you put it here first, and that you and others such as myself think it would be better fit in post 1900 thread. If they don't move it you will still have a following here.

 

[merlin]

I'm surprised that the end of the Battle of France didn't end later, with the accumulation of minor differences - I expected more of a difference between TTL and OTL, and in consequence the start of the Battle of Britain. Though the Luftwaffe will have less aircraft to 'play' with!

 

[sloreck]

A good deal of the Fall of France was due to the political weakness of the Third Republic as much as the facts on the ground. Here the German advance has been slower and more costly. The evacuation of troops and equipment from rifles to artillery has been spectacularly better, the French fleet has been neutralized in such a way as to ensure it is out of German hands and the ill will from Mers el Kebir has not happened.

In terms of numbers, it looks like the RAF is better off in terms of fighter aircraft and pilots than OTL, certainly no worse, with probably more "Free" pilots from Poland, France, Czechoslovakia, Norway than OTL. Between the fighting in Norway and the battles in the Low Countries and France, the Germans have lost substantially more aircraft and even more important aircrew. Those planes and aircrew available in July are more worn out and in need of rest and repair than OTL. Every AA gun that has returned from the continent that was left behind OTL makes it that much harder for the Luftwaffe.

 

[fester]

July 20, 1940 Alexandria

Neptune was already in the floating dry dock. She would be there for another week before her repairs were completed. Orion would be repaired along the pier while Malaya waited for the dry dock to be emptied before allowing the engineers and ship fitters to remove her from the water to inspect her hull and repair any unobserved damage from the action. The fleet had returned from the indecisive clash that morning. Admiral Cunningham was disappointed. He had equal numbers and thus should have had superiority over the Italian fleet but he really was outnumbered as only Warspite was a first class unit. Eagle was useless as her fighter complement was down to two biplanes this morning as one piston ring broke and the engine needed to be replaced from Fleet stores. A long cable had been sent to the Admiralty requesting reinforcements of modern units including more heavy cruisers and at least one fast fleet carrier, preferably two, both with Martlet squadrons aboard.

 

[fester]

July 27, 1940 1117 In the North Atlantic

HMS Whitley heaved as another pattern of depth charges exploded one hundred feet beneath her and two hundred feet behind her. This was the third attack run. Her ASDIC operators thought they had a firm lock on a U-boat. The captain had been maneuvering hard to keep the beams on the target for as long as possible until the attack run had to be committed to. So far there was no indication of damage. No strange noises, no bubbles, no oil slicks. The old destroyer turned over and slowed for a moment as the active ASDIC beams searched for the predator that they were hunting.

There he was again. Another run would start soon. The ships in convoy OB-188 continued past the U-boat.

Nine hours later, the destroyer turned and accelerated to rejoin the convoy at twenty four knots. She was down to only eight depth charges. The U-boat had been driven down although the captain wanted to claim the kill, there was no evidence. A Coastal Command bomber had arrived an hour ago and would circle the contact datum until the light failed.

Eighty miles to the rear of the convoy, U-34 waited until the screws of the persistent British escort could no longer be heard. He waited some more until the darkness settled in. His captain looked through the periscope and saw nothing in the darkening skies. He brought her to the surface and all hatches opened up to refresh the stale, putrid, fetid air that is generated by fifty men breathing in fear for a day. Within minutes, the diesel engines were recharging the batteries that had been drawn down to emergency levels as the submarine had to sprint, twist and turn all day to avoid the determined destroyer. A radio message was sent on to Kiel to report the convoy that had gotten away.

 

[fester]

July 28, 1940 Norfolk, Virginia

Two battleships, the aircraft carrier Wasp, four cruisers and nine destroyers left harbor to escort sixteen British merchant ships to Halifax. These ships were officially carrying “scrap metal”. Unofficially, they were carrying 900 75mm field pieces, 120 155mm guns, 200 37mm anti-aircraft guns, 120 37mm anti-tank guns, one hundred and twenty thousand rifles, three thousand machine guns and 15 million rounds of .30-06 ammunition. This was the first round of supplies to re-equip British formations that were expecting an invasion attempt from conquered France.

There were plans in the work to send “scrapped” Twin Wasp engines, “scrapped” motor launches, and even “scrapped” advanced trainer aircraft. So far the lawyers had not able to not laugh when someone suggested selling Arkansas as scrap to the Royal Navy so she was safely part of the fleet for another week.

 

[fester]

This is an inventory post of where the capital ships are as of August 1, 1940 as well as the ships under construction and potentially available in next 6 months. I am excluding Japan at this time as they are not quite relevant to the decision making processes yet.

Carriers:
Ark Royal --- Gibraltar
Illustrious in transit to Gibraltar from Caribbean after working up
Eagle -- Alexandria
Hermes --- West Africa/Central Atlantic
Argus -- Home Fleet/training
Furious -- Home Fleet
Glorious -- dry dock to be released to Home Fleet August 15

Formidable -- fitting out

Battle line
Hood -- Gibraltar
Repulse -- Home Fleet
Renown -- Gibraltar
Rodney -- Home Fleet (@ Rosyth for upkeep)
Nelson -- Home Fleet
Warspite -- Alexandria
Queen Elizabeth -- deep refit
Valiant -- Gibraltar
Malaya -- Alexandria drydock until mid-September
Barham -- Home Fleet
Revenge -- Home Fleet
Resolution -- Portsmouth (48 hour availability)
Ramillees -- North Atlantic convoy escort
Royal Sovereign -- Alexandria

-- Courbet -- Portsmouth not available for sea duty but being crewed by Free France
-- Lorraine -- Alexandria -- under repair to depart for Reunion August 16th.

KGV --- fitting out/trials
PoW -- fitting out


USN
Carriers
Wasp -- Atlantic Fleet -- covering a convoy
Enterprise -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor
Yorktown -- Pacific Fleet -- steaming to Panama
Lexington -- Pacific Fleet -- training near San Diego
Saratoga -- Puget sound refit
Ranger -- Atlantic Fleet -- Guantanamo Bay

Constellation (1937 repeat Yorktown as part of the POD) -- shake down trials -- Atlantic Fleet assignment
Hornet --- under construction

Battleships
Maryland -- Puget Sound refit
Arkansas -- Atlantic Fleet -- 30 day refit @ Norfolk
New York -- Atlantic Fleet -- covering a convoy
Texas -- Atlantic Fleet -- covering a convoy
Nevada -- Pacific Fleet -- gunnery training near Oahu
Oklahoma -- Pacific Fleet -- gunnery training near Oahu
Pennsylvania -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor
Arizona -- Pacific Fleet -- gunnery training near Oahu & 90 day refit at Mare Island scheduled for September 20
Idaho -- Pacific Fleet -- San Francisco
New Mexico -- Pacific Fleet -- San Diego
Mississippi -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor
California -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor
Tennessee -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor
Colorado -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor
West Virginia -- Pacific Fleet -- Pearl Harbor

North Carolina -- fitting out/trials out of New York -- available to fleet March, 1941
Washington --- fitting out/trials out of Philadelphia -- available to the fleet April 1941

Marine Nationale --- reporting to Vichy control
Strasbourg --- Martinique 60% Crewed
Dunkerque --- Martinique 60% Crewed
Richeleau --- Martinique 80% Crewed
Provenance --- Martinique 60% Crewed
Bretagne --- Martinique 60% Crewed

Jean Bart (partially complete) --- Martinique 30% Crewed

Bearn -- San Juan Puerto Rico --- under repair

Kriegsmarine
Gneisenau -- working up in the Baltic
Scharnhorst -- Kiel

Admiral Scheer -- Kiel

Bismark -- fitting out available late winter 1941

Regina Marina
Littorio -- Taranto
Vittorio Venetto -- Taranto
Andrea Doria -- Taranto
Caio Duilio -- gunnery training near Taranto
Conte de Cavour -- Taranto
Giulio Cesare -- Genoa for repairs until late September

 

[stubear1012]

How does the "scrap" sell compare to the original time line? I am wondering if with better performance during the evacuation, that the USA is more willing to provide "scrap" to Britain.

Regards

Stubear1012

 

[fester]

How does the "scrap" sell compare to the original time line? I am wondering if with better performance during the evacuation, that the USA is more willing to provide "scrap" to Britain.

Regards

Stubear1012

It is all the same plus or minus a little bit of wiggle room. I'm going to get the planes off of Bearn shortly as she is stuck in an American controlled port and Vichy will be looking to minimize their net expenditures of hard currency.

 

[jsb]

North Carolina -- fitting out/trials out of New York -- available to fleet March, 1941
Washington --- fitting out/trials out of Philadelphia -- available to the fleet April 1941

Does this mean commissioned or actually ready to fight?

Historically the ships had big problems that slowed them down a lot (from Wiki),
commissioned on 15 May 1941 at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. Although commissioned, its engine had not been run at full power—like its sister, Washington had major problems with longitudinal vibrations, which were only tempered after many tests conducted aboard North Carolina. The fixes made it possible to run builder's trials, which Washington did on 3 August 1941.

My other question would be did being earlier have any effect on the escalator clause timings, would they have 14" guns or affect later classes in number or size?
Just thinking you might get more NCs or 14" ones or Iowas at expense of SDs?

 

[vl100butch]

what about Utah? will she get a bigger refit in 1941 than OTL and get radar installed and maybe take a turret from Lexington/Saratoga? (shameless plug for my Save the Utah idea of deploying her to Wake to haul supplies and as a additional firepower)

 

[fester]

Does this mean commissioned or actually ready to fight?

Historically the ships had big problems that slowed them down a lot (from Wiki),
commissioned on 15 May 1941 at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. Although commissioned, its engine had not been run at full power—like its sister, Washington had major problems with longitudinal vibrations, which were only tempered after many tests conducted aboard North Carolina. The fixes made it possible to run builder's trials, which Washington did on 3 August 1941.

My other question would be did being earlier have any effect on the escalator clause timings, would they have 14" guns or affect later classes in number or size?
Just thinking you might get more NCs or 14" ones or Iowas at expense of SDs?

The Navy currently thinks NC and Washington will be ready to fight by early summer 1941. The vibration problem still has not been discovered and that will slow things down. I intend to have these ships actually ready for operations in late Fall 1941. As far as the timing, both of them are only a couple of weeks ahead of schedule (2nd shifts have been authorized earlier) and both are 3x3 16 inch configuration as they were laid down on the same day in OTL. So no change there.

The US battleship program will not be fundamentally altered in this TL until at least 1942/43 if there is a steel crisis and a different style of war in the Pacific. I have not made that decision yet.

 

[fester]

what about Utah? will she get a bigger refit in 1941 than OTL and get radar installed and maybe take a turret from Lexington/Saratoga? (shameless plug for my Save the Utah idea of deploying her to Wake to haul supplies and as a additional firepower)

nope, Utah is still the gun and AA school ship. She will not save Wake Island

 

[Mr Carrot]

did royal oak still get torped at anchor ittl?

 

[fester]

did royal oak still get torped at anchor ittl?

Yes

 

[Mr Carrot]

she never catches a break

 

[mudhead]

Marine Nationale --- reporting to Vichy control
Strasbourg --- Martinique 60% Crewed
Dunkerque --- Martinique 60% Crewed
Richeleau --- Martinique 80% Crewed
Provenance --- Martinique 60% Crewed
Bretagne --- Martinique 60% Crewed

Strip the older ships of enough men, and you'd have full complements for the Richelieu and the 2 BCs.

 

[fester]

Strip the older ships of enough men, and you'd have full complements for the Richelieu and the 2 BCs.

That could work, although the long term plan by the Vichy Admiralty is to bring the crews down to 30% or so --- sufficient to not let the ships rust nor for the bearings to freeze up but not too expensive as the withdrawn sailors can be discharged to the civilian population and go off payroll. I'll get a scene for repatriations on that sooner rather than later.

 

[fester]

July 31, 1940 Santa Monica, California

Emptiness along the factory floor was eerie.

The lines had been shut down an hour ago. Partially completed aircraft were left in place for the evening as the first shift had been told to assemble at the front gate two hours before quitting time. Once there, the thousand workers saw the company owners atop the back of a brand new General Motors quarter ton truck painted coal mine black with a microphone in the bed. This was different.

Everyone and their families were invited to a buffet dinner that evening. The Douglas company had just delivered their 500th bomber and more importantly received an order for one hundred new B-23 bombers from the Dutch government in exile for use in the Dutch East Indies.