Keynes' Cruisers

[fester]

I'd expect Paris to fire off almost all that's remaining, leaving just enough to blow the ship into scrap--having a battleship captured is not anything anyone wants to happen. Even if it's a totally useless hulk towed into port, that would be a major propaganda coup.

As for butterflies--a BATTLESHIP, even if an old one, has been destroyed by bombs alone. That will have repercussions in the aircraft vs battleship debate. It might even result in the USA putting a little (not a lot!) more into carrier construction--same with Japan. The first Essex was laid down in April of '41. In May of 1940, all of the North Carolinas and South Dakotas are on the ways; none of the Missouris are. (Indiana had been laid down a few months previously; the otehr three SoDaks have at least a year of construction already done. The first 6 treaty battleships are certain to be completed, but will the Missouris be delayed to allocate carriers at a higher priority? There's limited numbers of slipways that can build such large ships...might a battleship sized slipway be used for an Essex or Yorktown class carrier or two? (Yorktown if the Essex design isn't ready yet...)

The Iowas have not been laid down yet. In this timeline, accelerate US Navy shipbuilding by a couple weeks/months compared to OTL. Iowa is probably getting laid down in the next week or two of the timeline.
As far as the USN reaction --- that is what you get when you have an old battleship operating close to shore, in restricted waters as a glorified monitor when there is no fighter support.... I don't think they'll learn much as Paris did not sink. She decided to join the choir invisible and beach herself to support the army instead of limping back to port. If the weather was good, she probably could have made it to Le Havre for temporary repairs.

 

[fester]

May 28,1940 1140 Near Calais

The retreat ended.

Bones hurt where muscles pulled on their connections. His eyes had trouble staying open. Orders had to be repeated twice to be understood once. They had marched for thirty one hours with only the occasional break. He prayed for the moments when Luftwaffe fighters came low to strafe the columns. They had done that several times yesterday and each time, the regiment scattered into roadside ditches and laid low. By the third time, he was able to shut his eyes and sleep, glorious sleep for a few minutes until the march started again.

Private MacMahon did not care about what was going on around him. He did not see the Regular brigade with a tank regiment had been in Calais for almost a week now. The outer fortifications were complete. The Division’s artillery group had arrived hours ago. Most of the guns were lined up in prepared gun pits. Anti-tank companies were spread throughout the short demi-lune perimeter. They could hold. A division could hold this town for a week and most of a Corps had started to assemble itself. In the harbor there was salvation. A dozen destroyers were being loaded with men. Three were clearing the breakwater with a Territorial labor regiment. A dozen ferries and coasters were loading heavy equipment. A crane tilted in grotesque wreck from bomb damage but its peers were loading a battery of 9.2 inch guns onto a ship.

He saw none of that. Instead he saw a cluster of netted areas near some trees. He saw some food laid out and he saw another company from the Regiment fast asleep. He ate quickly, not tasting and barely chewing. Once done, he took off his helmet and put it over his eyes so he could sleep.

He never heard the Heinkel, he never saw the bomb, he never felt the explosion that killed him.

 

[fester]

May 28, 1940 1500 near Bodo

Another attack was repulsed. Three German divisions had been grinding their way forward until the night before when their forward patrols had bounced off the solid Allied line near Bodo. Two attacks had gone in this morning. The second had some success until a well placed 2 pounder section destroyed the last tanks with well placed flanking shots. After that, it was an infantry battle of man versus man, and machine gun against fortification. Artillery ammunition was precious on both sides so only concentrated targets were hit, suppression, harassment and interdiction was rare. The third attack in the afternoon had some success as a mountain battalion had pierced the lines of the 4th Norwegian Division but two battalions of Legionnaires had been ferried across the fjord in a hurry. They had re-established a line behind which the Norwegians recovered and then counter-attacked. By the end of the push, nothing had changed besides the casualty counts.


Allied sea control was the key to the Bodo position as they had interior lines and the ability to rapidly reinforce and raid. The port was key and it could not be taken without bulling through the defenses to the east.

 

[fester]

May 28, 1940 1900 The Oval Office

Eleven men sat in the Oval Office. Seven Americans, two British and two Frenchmen smoked cigars and drank their Scotch neat. The emissaries of the Allied powers had been busy over the past two weeks since the German offensive started. Their moods darkened as defeats accumulated and maneuvers emasculated what few tactical successes their nations’ armies had achieved. The French government was in a panic as Paris was again under threat from the Germans for the third time in seventy years. So far there had been no push south of the Somme but her most powerful armies were being trapped against the Channel coast. The Ambassador and the attache knew that an evacuation effort was being assembled and another offensive was being planned to break in and break out of the trap. But even if the 1st and 7th Armies could escape, their equipment would be scattered from Hannut to Gembloux to Breda to Ostend to Calais. The French needed to re-equip that army and her factories could not do that while supplying the rest of the the armies of France.

“Very well, our factories are open to you. I will direct General Marshall to make the re-arming of the French 1st Army Group the greatest priority for scarce material over the next six months. However, I can not do this without guarantees. I need three conditions before I can allow our defenses to be impoverished while we rebuild fifteen French divisions” The president paused as the French and British ambassadors leaned in.

“First, I will need at least half of the gold reserves held in Paris to be shipped to either Washington or New York as a sign of good faith. Secondly, I will need a guarantee that the modern ships of the Marine Nationale, namely Richelieu, Jean Bart, Strasbourg, Dunkerque and several cruisers will either be placed in friendly control in the case of a separate peace or interned in Western Hemisphere ports. Finally, American observers and staff officer will need to be present down to the divisional level so that we may learn what our equipment can and can not do in a modern battle.”

The French ambassador would have inhaled sharply if he was not a well trained diplomat. His country needed American weapons and supplies, but the army that would be equipped with the output of Detroit and Chicago and Cleveland and Pittsburgh would also cost the French their independence as the fleet would be in hock to the President and their reserves that had been accumulated so painfully over the past generation would be shipped overseas and out of French control. But since he was a skilled diplomat, he did not breathe unusually deeply. Instead he sipped his Scotch to collect himself.

“Very well Mr. President, these are very strong conditions but I have been empowered to use my judgement. I agree to all conditions as we need the three thousand tanks, two thousand guns and the millions of tons of supplies to rebuild our armies. I will have my attache schedule time with your General Marshall to arrange the details tomorrow morning. “

 

[fester]

May 29, 1940 Washington DC http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15959

The President adjusted his papers one last time before he took a sip of water from a cup on his desk. The radio technician adjusted the microphone, moving it back two inches and to the right by half an inch to accommodate the President’s body lean. Three, two, one and now he was on the air.


My friends:

At this moment of sadness throughout most of the world, I want to talk with you about a number of subjects that directly affect the future of the United States. We are shocked by the almost incredible eyewitness stories that come to us of what is happening at this moment to the civilian populations of Norway and Holland and Belgium and Luxembourg and France.

I think it is right on this Sabbath evening that I should say a word in behalf of women and children and old men who need help-immediate help in their present distress—help from us across the seas, from us who are still free to give it.

Tonight over the once peaceful roads of Belgium and France millions are now moving, running from their homes to escape bombs and shells and fire and machine gunning, without shelter, and almost wholly without food. They stumble on, knowing not where the end of the road will be. I speak to you of these people because each one of you listening to me tonight has a way of helping them. The American Red Cross, that represents each of us, is rushing food, clothing and medical supplies to these destitute civilian millions. Please—I beg you—please give according to your means to your nearest Red Cross chapter, give as generously as you can. I ask this in the name of our common humanity.

Let us sit down together again, you and I, to consider our own pressing problems that confront us.

There are many among us who in the past closed their eyes to events abroad-because they believed in utter good faith what some of their fellow Americans told them—that what was taking place in Europe was none of our business; that no matter what happened over there, the United States could always pursue its peaceful and unique course in the world.

There are many among us who closed their eyes, from lack of interest or lack of knowledge; honestly and sincerely thinking that the many hundreds of miles of salt water made the American Hemisphere so remote that the people of North and Central and South America could go on living in the midst of their vast resources without reference to, or danger from, other continents of the world.

There are some among us who were persuaded by minority groups that we could maintain our physical safety by retiring within our continental boundaries—the Atlantic on the east, the Pacific on the west, Canada on the north, and Mexico on the south. I illustrated the futility—the impossibility—of that idea in my message to the Congress last week. Obviously, a defense policy based on that is merely to invite future attack.

And, finally, there are a few among us who have deliberately and consciously closed their eyes because they were determined to be opposed to their government, its foreign policy and every other policy, to be partisan, and to believe that anything that the Government did was wholly wrong.

To those who have closed their eyes for any of these many reasons, to those who would not admit the possibility of the approaching storm—to all of them the past two weeks have meant the shattering of many illusions.

They have lost the illusion that we are remote and isolated and, therefore, secure against the dangers from which no other land is free.

In some quarters, with this rude awakening has come fear, bordering on panic. It is said that we are defenseless. It is whispered by some that only by abandoning our freedom, our ideals, our way of life, can we build our defenses adequately, can we match the strength of the aggressors.

I did not share those illusions. I do not share these fears.

Today we are now more realistic. But let us not be calamity howlers and discount our strength. Let us have done with both fears and illusions. On this Sabbath evening, in our homes in the midst of our American families, let us calmly consider what we have done and what we must do.

In the past two or three weeks all kinds of stories have been handed out to the American public about our lack of preparedness. It has even been charged that the money we have spent on our military and naval forces during the last few years has gone · down the rat-hole. I think it is a matter of fairness to the nation that you hear the facts.

We have spent large sums of money on the national defense. This money has been used to make our Army and Navy today the largest, the best equipped, and the best trained peace-time military establishment in the whole history of this country….


The funding of the past few years was then listed off as the Navy had grown in strength and power. The Army was beginning to re-awaken from its post Great War slumber but it would not be enough. Gigantic bills would be submitted and the President paused for a moment before he told the American people the cost that he expected them to bear, the price that they would pay, the treasure they would burn and the young men that they may bury.

 

[fester]

May 28, 1940 Toulon, France

Three light cruisers of the 3rd Cruiser Division left the harbor under strict secrecy and security. They had arrived just before nightfall the previous night and now they were leaving just before dawn. Their crews had worked throughout the night to refuel the ships to full capacity and then unload a dozen box cars that had arrived from Paris with a company of Legionnaires as no-nonsense guards. Half of the gold reserves of the Republic were being shipped to New York under absolute secrecy. A company of Polish infantrymen guarded a second train that arrived after midnight. All the Polish gold that the French controlled would also be shipped to New York for safekeeping. No one knew if Paris could be held and the Polish government in exile was preparing to re-exile itself.

 

[r1ncewind]

Awesome, that should make it harder for germany to pay for imports!

 

[steamboy]

Thank god for smart diplomats. That removes a huge chunk of gold from German hands and we can assume the vast majority of the fleet too. Perhaps have them interned at Martinique or New York. In reality the MN's destroyers won't be much use on the convoy runs. They were built for the Med and had a VERY short range by RN standards, but the extra Warships could come in handy. The 3 La Galissonnière class cruisers of the 3rd Cruiser Division are all modern and very useful ships, lets hope that the Algerie comes with the battleships and battlecruisers.

Force de Raid consisted of the Dunkirque and Strassbourg along with the 3rd Cruiser Div, both Mogador class DDs and all 6 Fantastique class DDs and the Bearn and as they were a homegenous group i'd assume the DDs would escort the BC's across the Atlantic to where ever they are to be interned. When Richelieu and Jean Bart come out they would probably pick up some more escorts too. And to give them a decent screen the MN would probably ensure that most of their cruisers and DD's in Brest and Touloun to escort them over.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

I think it would be unlikely for the MN to set sail for internment just yet- the situation is dire, but not unrecoverable. The allied diplomats are looking to rebuild the French army, so clearly there is still some fight left in the French Government. Now once Paris falls, and the 7th Army is destroyed, that will change, but for now they are looking to keep fighting, so the MN is going nowhere.

As an aside, it'll be interesting to see what conclusions are taken from the sinking of Paris. Likely to be harsh recriminations between the MN and the AdA, as with even a modicum of fighter support she could well have been saved.

Quick question for @fester- do the allies have any airfields available in their pockets?

 

[fester]

I think it would be unlikely for the MN to set sail for internment just yet- the situation is dire, but not unrecoverable. The allied diplomats are looking to rebuild the French army, so clearly there is still some fight left in the French Government. Now once Paris falls, and the 7th Army is destroyed, that will change, but for now they are looking to keep fighting, so the MN is going nowhere.

As an aside, it'll be interesting to see what conclusions are taken from the sinking of Paris. Likely to be harsh recriminations between the MN and the AdA, as with even a modicum of fighter support she could well have been saved.

Quick question for @fester- do the allies have any airfields available in their pockets?

Working backwards.... No usable airfields that are not getting plastered by German artillery or bombers.

Conclusion from Paris... Half a dozen fighters would have been nice plus need more AA than 7 3 inch guns and an infantry company of machine guns.... Everyone is writing this off as obviously dumb use of an obsolete ship.

The Marine Nationale has not set sail for exile. They still have fight in them. It will be 10 ships that get removed from the board. No escorts are needed.

 

[jsb]

Just to keep going off on a tangent from the great storry

The problem with resupply at sea is getting thousand pound shells from the lighters into the magazines without the dockside cranes normally used to do that. The battleships don't carry those size cranes on board, and a small lighter is unlikely to be able to reach the magazines.

I pretty sure that most BB did have the cranes needed to lift shells on-board as they don't weigh more than the ships boats or float planes and the rest of the moves will be done by hand.

at 1.24 is best I have found quickly.

It will be 10 ships that get removed from the board. No escorts are needed.

Would they not get at least a few DDs for such a high value ships/cargo I would suggest at least a single flotilla of 8 for 8 capital ships/cruisers?

 

[r1ncewind]

So what did germany use the polish and french gold reserves to buy OTL? Romanian oil?

 

[fester]

Would they not get at least a few DDs for such a high value ships/cargo I would suggest at least a single flotilla of 8 for 8 capital ships/cruisers?

If they run at 22 knots in the Atlantic for 3 days they are safe. Remember the French operated their cruisers with light escorts in 1941/42 in a much higher threat environment. Also see the hunting of Graf Spee how few destroyers were involved. If 8 destroyers show up in the Western hemisphere no one will complain beyond the harbor master but they are not critical to the balance of power.

 

[fester]

So what did germany use the polish and french gold reserves to buy OTL? Romanian oil?

Oil, mineral ores, swedish ball bearings etc.

 

[vl100butch]

8-10 short range destroyers could make a big difference along the East Coast of the US

Fester, what about LTA aviation, will the blimp force expand earlier?

 

[sloreck]

8-10 short range destroyers could make a big difference along the East Coast of the US

Probably the best way to use these destroyers is in the Caribbean and northern part of South America. Once you institute convoys along the east coast and enforce the black out (are you listening Adm King) the escort situation is not too bad. Protecting the tanker trade in the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, and the northern coast of South America will reduce the mess that happened in those waters OTL. Some of the french Caribbean holdings can be used as bases for these ships which preserves French control and pride.

I don't see why the MN ships need to go to the western hemisphere quite so soon. To the extent that any of the ships can sail but are unfinished and not able to be made ready for combat quickly, moving them now makes sense. It will be vital to ensure that if it looks like the sponge is going to be thrown in the pre-identified ships need to get going. I expect that if the major combatants bug out, you'll see other ships decide to relocate to the western hemisphere to French ports. Once there if ordered to return home by the post-armistice government they can refuse "because the Americans won't let us come back".

Given the trashing that the Kriegsmarine has taken ITTL compared to OTL, the Germans may not be so hands off on whatever parts of the MN that remain in Metropolitan France. The larger the ship, the more hassle to man it and get it working however destroyers and smaller can be incorporated more readily. having Kriegsmarine manned ex-French light forces, destroyers, and maybe cruisers operating in the Med out of southern France with the RM could make life more difficult for the RN.

I hope there will be observers with the AdA as well as ground forces, and hopefully some with the RAF and RN to bring back lessons earlier than OTL (like convoys).

 

[fester]

I don't see why the MN ships need to go to the western hemisphere quite so soon. To the extent that any of the ships can sail but are unfinished and not able to be made ready for combat quickly, moving them now makes sense. It will be vital to ensure that if it looks like the sponge is going to be thrown in the pre-identified ships need to get going. I expect that if the major combatants bug out, you'll see other ships decide to relocate to the western hemisphere to French ports. Once there if ordered to return home by the post-armistice government they can refuse "because the Americans won't let us come back".

Good suggestion for the lighter forces. I do not think I will go that route but it is interesting. The three cruisers have orders to drop off the gold and then get back to the Med.

 

[mudhead]

(are you listening Adm King)

Probably not, unfortunately.

 

[perfectgeneral]

(like convoys)

I'd expect an observer on each ship committed to US internment just to keep them honest. Outside of that, the observers are more likely to be land based staff positions.

Poor McMahan never awoke. Probably far from the worst way for him to go.

 

[fester]

May 30, 1940 Dunkirk 0453

“Full Astern, full astern.” The powerful screws of the train ferry Shepperton bit into the harbor water. On her deck where sleeping cars usually rested where seventeen H39 tanks, the remains of a proud battalion. That battalion commander was trying not to cry as the ferry pulled away from the dock. He had failed. He had failed his nation, and he had failed his men who were not on board.

This was Shepperton’s third trip to Dunkirk, one trip per night. She and her two sisters had pulled most of the 1st DCR out of the collapsing pocket. Or at least they had pulled ninety seven tanks and twenty one armored cars along with thirty artillery pieces. It was no longer a division. It was a base upon which a division could be rebuilt it given time, but the 1 DCR had fought at Gembloux and fought near Namur and fought again near Lille. Only a few dozen tanks were lost to German fire. Most had failed mechanically and had to be abandoned.

German tanks and infantry had started to arrive at the outer perimeter the night before and artillery shells were reaching into the town itself. The men of four British divisions had already evacuated. Most left with their shoulder arms and rucksacks while their crew served equipment was left behind. The remaining British divisions were double or tripled their normal firepower as riflemen were issued machine guns, mortar teams were spread to 25 pounder batteries and light anti-aircraft machine gunners were moved to abandoned Bofors. The Germans had eleven divisions converging around the Dunkirk pocket and another five besieging Calais. A light screen stood in front of Abbeville to guard against another counter-attack. Three British and four French divisions defended Dunkirk. Further up the coast, the Belgian Army was back in contact with the Germans near Ostend. The Royal Navy was attempting to evacuate from all three ports. Boulonge had been cut off and its men assigned to be an afterthought for as long as they could harass and tie down German soldiers. A trio of old destroyers had been held back from today’s evacuation to make fast repairs and prepare for a dash into the westernmost Channel Port to pull out the ad-hoc brigade defending its walls, but few had hope that any could be rescued.