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Story 1509
Norfolk, Virginia August 10, 1942
Four gunboats and a pair of older destroyers waited for the convoy to leave the minefields that guarded the James River. Forty seven ships including the Liberty Ship SS Joseph Stanton were soon forming up in six columns. Tankers and bulk ships carrying new M4 Sherman tanks for the fighting in North Africa were in the central two columns while the bulk carrying Liberty ships flanked them while tramps and odds and sods occupied the outermost columns. Subchasers with steel or wooden hulls were the inner escorts of the convoy. A US Navy blimp glided overhead seeking out U-boats.
Two hours later, just as the convoy was assembled and began steaming to North Africa, a mine laid by a U-boat that was now two hundred miles south of the convoy ripped open the hull of a Panamanian steamer. A pair of subchasers closed to take off the surviving crew. One of the wooden wonder’s lookouts saw another mine. The reserve lieutenant ordered riflemen on deck to sink the mine. Seven dozen shots later, the mine sank to the bottom of the continental shelf. The crew aboard that subchaser would not know that those shots fired would be the only warshots that their craft would ever fire despite decomissioning in 1954 from the Brazilian Navy.
Four gunboats and a pair of older destroyers waited for the convoy to leave the minefields that guarded the James River. Forty seven ships including the Liberty Ship SS Joseph Stanton were soon forming up in six columns. Tankers and bulk ships carrying new M4 Sherman tanks for the fighting in North Africa were in the central two columns while the bulk carrying Liberty ships flanked them while tramps and odds and sods occupied the outermost columns. Subchasers with steel or wooden hulls were the inner escorts of the convoy. A US Navy blimp glided overhead seeking out U-boats.
Two hours later, just as the convoy was assembled and began steaming to North Africa, a mine laid by a U-boat that was now two hundred miles south of the convoy ripped open the hull of a Panamanian steamer. A pair of subchasers closed to take off the surviving crew. One of the wooden wonder’s lookouts saw another mine. The reserve lieutenant ordered riflemen on deck to sink the mine. Seven dozen shots later, the mine sank to the bottom of the continental shelf. The crew aboard that subchaser would not know that those shots fired would be the only warshots that their craft would ever fire despite decomissioning in 1954 from the Brazilian Navy.
Wonder who and what she's carrying ITTL?
Can't see Amagiri getting involved in the Mediterranean campaign.
Story 1510
Near Hong Kong, August 11, 1942
HMS Porpoise slowly backed away from the busy shipping channels. All her mines had been laid on her first mission to the far north. Her torpedo hunting box was a bit further off shore where she was guaranteed to be away from the trio of T class submarines operating in the South China Sea. The Americans had at least five fleet boats operating in the Luzon and the Formosan Straits. Staff officers had punched their allies more than once to establish clear operations boxes.
She shuffled out to her box, arriving just after dark. She started her hunt with full batteries and a working radar.
HMS Porpoise slowly backed away from the busy shipping channels. All her mines had been laid on her first mission to the far north. Her torpedo hunting box was a bit further off shore where she was guaranteed to be away from the trio of T class submarines operating in the South China Sea. The Americans had at least five fleet boats operating in the Luzon and the Formosan Straits. Staff officers had punched their allies more than once to establish clear operations boxes.
She shuffled out to her box, arriving just after dark. She started her hunt with full batteries and a working radar.
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Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Britain in 1942.
The war for Britain has been going on for close to three years now, and it’s time to look at the state of British. There has been enough of a divergence from OTL, that it’s worth while considering just the changes in British fortunes.
Britain has been kicked out of mainland Europe as per OTL, but that wasn’t her fault, she was let down by her European Allies, well that’s the British slant on the story. She has however retained Crete, which is going to have an affect on how Airborne troops are seen. The events in Crete will have an effect on British Airborne tactics, Britain was already developing Airborne units, however after Crete is unlike to allow them to grow bigger than a brigade size. Which given the lack of transport aircraft, is probably a good thing.
In the Middle East, after a pre planed fall back, the British counter offensive has managed to push forward ever since. Now while without Rommel, the British are not going to receive the lesson in tank tactics that they did, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Far too many of the units that came back from the Western Dessert, had to unlearn the tactics that they had learned, once confronted with the far more developed ground in Main Land Europe. What works in the wide open spaces of the dessert, is a recipe to get your head handed to you on a plate, in the confided space in Europe.
It isn’t going to be too long before the entire North African shore is free, and the British can run conveys through the Mediterranean, thus saving on shipping. The navy will also be able to move assets, particularly submarines to the Far East, where they will be of more use. With no treat to British shipping in the Indian Ocean, or South Atlantic now, the French having switched sides, this will be two areas that require minimum policing. Oil can also start to flow to Britain from her Middle East fields. It should be remembered that a tanker sailing via the Mediterranean can make three trips, to every two sailing via the Cape.
In the Far East, just holding on to Singapore has changed the game beyond all recognition. There will be no need to spend 1943, trying to dislodge this Japanese from their gains. Britain can afford to take its time and do baby steps to free all British territory by the end of 43. With the aim to liberate FIC in 44, and be in position to attack the Japanese Islands by 45. There is no need to rush, defeating the Germans is first priority, they are always the greatest treat.
At home it’s year three of the war, and the conversion of industry from peace time production, to war time, should be complete. It will not be until 43/44, that America achieves the same. With lower losses in the Middle East, there should have been time to produce a better tank, coming u
Into service in mid 43. The six pounder equipped Valentine is more than enough tank for the Far East, and can serve there until the end of the war. And Britain should by now be able to afford to send some more modern aircraft out to the region too.
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens in the next six months, and if the Allies can carry out a landing in France in 43. It doesn’t have to be early, it could be a smaller landing than Overlord, with the aim to establish a bridgehead over winter, and breakout in spring 44.
RR.
The war for Britain has been going on for close to three years now, and it’s time to look at the state of British. There has been enough of a divergence from OTL, that it’s worth while considering just the changes in British fortunes.
Britain has been kicked out of mainland Europe as per OTL, but that wasn’t her fault, she was let down by her European Allies, well that’s the British slant on the story. She has however retained Crete, which is going to have an affect on how Airborne troops are seen. The events in Crete will have an effect on British Airborne tactics, Britain was already developing Airborne units, however after Crete is unlike to allow them to grow bigger than a brigade size. Which given the lack of transport aircraft, is probably a good thing.
In the Middle East, after a pre planed fall back, the British counter offensive has managed to push forward ever since. Now while without Rommel, the British are not going to receive the lesson in tank tactics that they did, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Far too many of the units that came back from the Western Dessert, had to unlearn the tactics that they had learned, once confronted with the far more developed ground in Main Land Europe. What works in the wide open spaces of the dessert, is a recipe to get your head handed to you on a plate, in the confided space in Europe.
It isn’t going to be too long before the entire North African shore is free, and the British can run conveys through the Mediterranean, thus saving on shipping. The navy will also be able to move assets, particularly submarines to the Far East, where they will be of more use. With no treat to British shipping in the Indian Ocean, or South Atlantic now, the French having switched sides, this will be two areas that require minimum policing. Oil can also start to flow to Britain from her Middle East fields. It should be remembered that a tanker sailing via the Mediterranean can make three trips, to every two sailing via the Cape.
In the Far East, just holding on to Singapore has changed the game beyond all recognition. There will be no need to spend 1943, trying to dislodge this Japanese from their gains. Britain can afford to take its time and do baby steps to free all British territory by the end of 43. With the aim to liberate FIC in 44, and be in position to attack the Japanese Islands by 45. There is no need to rush, defeating the Germans is first priority, they are always the greatest treat.
At home it’s year three of the war, and the conversion of industry from peace time production, to war time, should be complete. It will not be until 43/44, that America achieves the same. With lower losses in the Middle East, there should have been time to produce a better tank, coming u
Into service in mid 43. The six pounder equipped Valentine is more than enough tank for the Far East, and can serve there until the end of the war. And Britain should by now be able to afford to send some more modern aircraft out to the region too.
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens in the next six months, and if the Allies can carry out a landing in France in 43. It doesn’t have to be early, it could be a smaller landing than Overlord, with the aim to establish a bridgehead over winter, and breakout in spring 44.
RR.
If Europe gets liberated earlier, as I mentioned, this'll lower the numbers of Jews killed in the Holocaust; if even a fraction of the larger surviving Jewish population in Europe emigrates to future Israel, that'll make a difference in how much territory Israel has...
And Burma's not falling to the Japanese is going to avert the worst effects of the Bengal Famine IOTL, if not butterfly it away completely, which will have effects in the Bengal area of India...
And Burma's not falling to the Japanese is going to avert the worst effects of the Bengal Famine IOTL, if not butterfly it away completely, which will have effects in the Bengal area of India...
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I am seeing Anne Frank her family and the Netherland saved by either Canadian troops or American troops
I mean, the Annexites were on the last train out of their transit camp. All they needee was one more stroke of luck.
Far less effect than you may think ...
the actual extermination camps which murdered within hours of arrival were most active mid 42 to late 43
For example Treblinka killed nearly 900,000 between 22 July 1942 and 19 Aug 1943
Belzec over 500,000 between 17 Mar 1942 and end of June 1943
Even the Hungarain Jews, which had been partially protected, lost about 450,000 in 3 months at Birkenau
The Hungarian Jews were not deported until summer, 1944. ITTL you may not see the overthrow of Horthy and the installation of the Arrow Cross. While the Horthy government had passed progressively stronger antisemitic measures, only when the fascist Arrow Cross took power did the Germans get the green light to deport Hungarian Jews to the death camps.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
As others have pointed out, the big push to exterminate the Jews, will come post the Wannsee Conference. Which IOTL, took place in January 1942, I would expect a similar conference to have taken place, on or about the same time ITTL. Unfortunately the factors that drove the Nazis to attempt ‘ The Final Solution ‘ are one and the same ITTL. And no matter what the Allies do once they discover what is going on, and believe the intelligence . They can not prevent the events, or significantly reduce the scale and scope of them.
Bombing ether the rail lines used to transport the Jews, or the camps, was beyond the abilities of the Allied Airforces in WWII. Plus the Allies had very fragmented knowledge of where the camps were. Nor were the majority of the death camps identified until after the war, as they were erected in secret, and closed down long before the end of the war.
RR.
Bombing ether the rail lines used to transport the Jews, or the camps, was beyond the abilities of the Allied Airforces in WWII. Plus the Allies had very fragmented knowledge of where the camps were. Nor were the majority of the death camps identified until after the war, as they were erected in secret, and closed down long before the end of the war.
RR.
And as per OTL as soon as things turn against them, the Nazi response will be to increase the rate of extermination, even a shorter war therefore would be unlikely to affect the number of Deaths markedly.
Exactly the only way to prevent it from really getting going is to be fighting on German soil in 40/41.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
SAC, Supreme Allied Commander.
One of the the great things that the Allies did was impose a system of unified command over their forces. The system for the most part worked well, with only limited conflict between the British and Americans. The three areas that saw conflict were, Australia, Europe and the Atlantic, all of which saw problems.
Australia, because of the collapse of the British at Singapore, and it’s reliance on now the Americans to guarantee its defence. Ended up with MacArthur as the SAC, and he managed to piss of a very large number of people. Now ITTL, Mac is dead and Singapore hasn’t fallen, nor has the majority of the DEI. Now Australia is too far away from Singapore to be incorporated in to a IBM command, India, Burma and Malaysia, nor is it right that it becomes part of an American South West Pacific command. Personally I think that the best result is a separate Australasian command. British commander, American deputy, Australian ground commander, British Navel, and New Zealand Air.
Europe is going to have to be a Yank, the septics would throw all their toys out of the pram, at anything else. The British are just going to have to suck it up, and try not to make too many comments. It’s unfortunate that by the time that they enter the war, all the top British Generals have far more experience than any American. And rightly resent having a jumped up Colonel put over them, who has little or no command experience at anything other than the most basic level.
However there could be a way to sweeten the pill for the British, and make amends. Britain ITTL, is not in as desperate place as she was. So in return for agreeing to the appointment of an American as SAC Europe, might we see the appointment of the one SAC that wasn’t made IOTL, and is very much needed. OK , this will piss of King, but tell him to play in the Pacific, or resign. So the appointment of a SAC Atlantic, British obviously, who best fits the role?
RR.
One of the the great things that the Allies did was impose a system of unified command over their forces. The system for the most part worked well, with only limited conflict between the British and Americans. The three areas that saw conflict were, Australia, Europe and the Atlantic, all of which saw problems.
Australia, because of the collapse of the British at Singapore, and it’s reliance on now the Americans to guarantee its defence. Ended up with MacArthur as the SAC, and he managed to piss of a very large number of people. Now ITTL, Mac is dead and Singapore hasn’t fallen, nor has the majority of the DEI. Now Australia is too far away from Singapore to be incorporated in to a IBM command, India, Burma and Malaysia, nor is it right that it becomes part of an American South West Pacific command. Personally I think that the best result is a separate Australasian command. British commander, American deputy, Australian ground commander, British Navel, and New Zealand Air.
Europe is going to have to be a Yank, the septics would throw all their toys out of the pram, at anything else. The British are just going to have to suck it up, and try not to make too many comments. It’s unfortunate that by the time that they enter the war, all the top British Generals have far more experience than any American. And rightly resent having a jumped up Colonel put over them, who has little or no command experience at anything other than the most basic level.
However there could be a way to sweeten the pill for the British, and make amends. Britain ITTL, is not in as desperate place as she was. So in return for agreeing to the appointment of an American as SAC Europe, might we see the appointment of the one SAC that wasn’t made IOTL, and is very much needed. OK , this will piss of King, but tell him to play in the Pacific, or resign. So the appointment of a SAC Atlantic, British obviously, who best fits the role?
RR.
Agree with the rest, but would all the oil not come from the new world (at least for UK)?
Houston to Glasgow = 4755 nautical miles
19 days 20 hours @ 10 Kn
Abadan to Glasgow = 6607 nautical miles VIA Suez Canal
27 days 13 hours @ 10 Kn
or
11338 nautical miles VIA Cape of Good Hope
47 days 06 hours @ 10 Kn
Actually worse as this assumes you can transit in straight line close to France and Italy.....
By this point are we not firmly in LL territory where its doesn't matter ITTL?
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