Deception!!!!!!
At least it is better than nothing.
More ships for Force Z.....
- Status
The U.S. Navy built their own torpedos. Most of the pre-war and early war Mark-14 torps were built at the Naval Torpedo station at Newport, Rhode Island. This was done under the authority of the Naval Bureau of Ordnance and administered by Naval officers. It was the US Navy's problem.
I wonder if any of the passengers on the Taiyo Maru will notice the circuitous route. On liners there was usually a posting of the route with marking of each days progress for the passengers to see. Of course that could be falsified easily. The problem with the USN torpedoes is they were never properly tested, the magnetic exploder was never adequately tested except off Newport, and the depth setting device and the backup contact exploder were really never tested outside a lab. Realistically testing warshots was expensive, and of course the design was marvelous, just marvelous, too marvelous for words...
An interesting POD for a timeline would be extra money being made available at any point between 1931 and 1941 for actual testing under live conditions. And the entire test run naturally resulting in duds.
Thank you @fester with all this you are doing. Force Z is going to be made up of battleship HMS Prince of Wales, battlecruiser HMS Repulse, carrier HMS Ark Royal, three light cruiser HMS Mauritius, HMS Nigeria, and HMS Kenya, destroyers Electra, Express, Encounter, Jupiter, and three unnamed destroyers. Now comes the winner question, who is in command Vice Admiral Tom Phillips or another admiral? (Hoping it will be Admiral Somerville)
The irony being that if the torpedoes had been made by a private company under contract, there probably would have been more testing required to ensure that everything was up to spec and nothing substandard was being sold to the navy.
Actually it was the Naval Torpedo factory, and congressional bean counters who were at fault, inadequate design, and even more inadequate testing in real world situations. This is the place, that twice I his career Admiral Thomas Hart had run up against, and hit the rock of the Rhode Island congressional delegation. In my opinion if Hart had remained In the Pacific for an additional 6 months I believe he would have been able to isolate the problem, being technical rather than operator based. Always something for anbah writer to think about.. another what if..
Do not assume Kenya is heading east. MED Fleet is being raided for reinforcements. Going to be Ark Royal, two cruisers and four destroyers.
She's a veteran ship with a battle proven crew so provided she doesn't run into any subs she should be alright. Hopefully she's carrying Martlets and not just Fulmars. Sea Hurricanes would be no good for her as they wouldn't fit on her narrow aircraft lifts.
Speaking of lifts, what were her designers thinking. To get an aircraft from the lower hanger to the flight deck you had to lower the lift, load the aircraft on the lower level, raise the lift, unload the aircraft into the upper hanger, lower the lift, load the aircraft on the upper level, raise the lift again and then finally unload it onto the flight deck.
Good thing I avoided having the Rhodes Invasion carriers, including Ark, use only Hurricanes...
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Reinforcing the Far East.
If we look at the different European Nations, and exclude the Americans, we can see that all three have varying problems with reenforcing their respective Far East Colonies, against the impending Japanese threat. This is as a result of the events ITTL, and the effects that they have had on the respective countries. We have to take into account the fundamental differences between the respective armies, and the present conditions for the three nations involved.
Britain is in a much better position ITTL, than she was at this time IOTL. But first and foremost we must dispel a common and often repeated myth. At no point did Britain stand alone during WWII, this is a tremendous insult to the millions of men and women, from around the Empire, Commonwealth, neutral nations and informally Empire, that came forward to serve. What is true, is that for a very short time in between the fall of France and the entry of Greece into the war, Britain and the Empire/Commonwealth didn't have any allies.
The better results achieved by the British in Norway, France and the Middle East, has left the British in a much better position. This doesn't mean that there will not be manpower shortages, but these will be as much as a result of political decisions. Britain could easily have recruited more men from her African colonies, for both 2nd and 3rd line duties in Europe. But she didn't, due to both racist and practical reasons. The British wanted to avoid showing the natives just how poor the living and social conditions were in the mother county. And given the poor to none existent educational provisions were in colonial Africa, few had the education to make them useful. Unlike America however, there was no question that Africans had the courage or bravery to fight, the British knew from bitter experience just how courageous Africans were. And they were IOTL used successfully in front line combat in Burma.
Britain could have easily raised an additional half a million troops from India, and fought her Far East campaign with only minimal white forces. But again there were political considerations that meant hat this wasn’t the option chosen. The British establishment wanted to reassure the Austrians and New Zealanders, that they were prepared to make the sacrifices promised to defend them from the Japanese threat. And that they were not reliant on the soon to be independent India to defend them. This is not to say that ITTL, India will not be a very important source of forces in the upcoming Far East campaign.
The Dutch are in a bind, and face major problems in providing reinforcements for the DEI. Their homeland has been occupied, they as did the French, have two armies, the predominantly conscript home army, and a much smaller professional colonial army. And so unlike the British Army, very few of the home army will have ever served outside the home nation, and there is no mechanism in place to force Free Dutch troops to do so. Their principal inclination is to retain what forces they have in Britain, for the eventual liberation of the home nation. Nor do they have the large settler nations that Britain has, both to draw forces from, or export industry to. Unless they can get the British or Americans to open up production lines for the ammunition used by their forces, they are going to have to reequip then with British or American weapons.
Now while this isn't too much of a problem for the airforce, which is already switching over to American aircraft. It is a big problem for the army, who will have to make some hard choices. Do they go the American route, the British route, or mix and match? It is reasonable to say that the Free Dutch Army in Britain, is by now using British armaments. However the Free Dutch Colonial Army, might prefer to use American weapons. The Dutch Navy is the one with the biggest problem, once its present supply of ammunition is used up, it will have to rearm it's ships with British or American weapons. Other than a small number of airforce and naval officers, sent out to impart their experience in combat, all reinforcements will have to come from the indigenous population of the DEI. It's no good sending army officers, their limited experience is in fighting mechanised warfare in Europe, and inappropriate to the DEI. The problem with this is do the Dutch start to promote locals to officer positions, and have they the time to train up the locals, to a reasonable standard. Their one advantage is that they are not in the first line of the upcoming conflict, and by the time the Japanese get around to them, they should have American and British support.
The French had all the problems that the Dutch did plus the additional complication of legitimacy. Unlike the Dutch colonial administration in the DEI, who could ignore the occupation government. Authority derives from the crown, the crown is at present in England, and it is to the crown we owe our allegiance. The French colonial administration unless it declared for the Free French, toed the occupation government line. Now once French North Africa has been occupied/liberated, and the majority of the French West and Central African colonies have switched allegiance, things will be very different. With the Free French able to recruit from traditional areas, they should by late 43, early 44, be able to raise two or more light infantry divisions for service in the Far East. And from French North Africa, settler and native units for service in Europe.
RR.
If we look at the different European Nations, and exclude the Americans, we can see that all three have varying problems with reenforcing their respective Far East Colonies, against the impending Japanese threat. This is as a result of the events ITTL, and the effects that they have had on the respective countries. We have to take into account the fundamental differences between the respective armies, and the present conditions for the three nations involved.
Britain is in a much better position ITTL, than she was at this time IOTL. But first and foremost we must dispel a common and often repeated myth. At no point did Britain stand alone during WWII, this is a tremendous insult to the millions of men and women, from around the Empire, Commonwealth, neutral nations and informally Empire, that came forward to serve. What is true, is that for a very short time in between the fall of France and the entry of Greece into the war, Britain and the Empire/Commonwealth didn't have any allies.
The better results achieved by the British in Norway, France and the Middle East, has left the British in a much better position. This doesn't mean that there will not be manpower shortages, but these will be as much as a result of political decisions. Britain could easily have recruited more men from her African colonies, for both 2nd and 3rd line duties in Europe. But she didn't, due to both racist and practical reasons. The British wanted to avoid showing the natives just how poor the living and social conditions were in the mother county. And given the poor to none existent educational provisions were in colonial Africa, few had the education to make them useful. Unlike America however, there was no question that Africans had the courage or bravery to fight, the British knew from bitter experience just how courageous Africans were. And they were IOTL used successfully in front line combat in Burma.
Britain could have easily raised an additional half a million troops from India, and fought her Far East campaign with only minimal white forces. But again there were political considerations that meant hat this wasn’t the option chosen. The British establishment wanted to reassure the Austrians and New Zealanders, that they were prepared to make the sacrifices promised to defend them from the Japanese threat. And that they were not reliant on the soon to be independent India to defend them. This is not to say that ITTL, India will not be a very important source of forces in the upcoming Far East campaign.
The Dutch are in a bind, and face major problems in providing reinforcements for the DEI. Their homeland has been occupied, they as did the French, have two armies, the predominantly conscript home army, and a much smaller professional colonial army. And so unlike the British Army, very few of the home army will have ever served outside the home nation, and there is no mechanism in place to force Free Dutch troops to do so. Their principal inclination is to retain what forces they have in Britain, for the eventual liberation of the home nation. Nor do they have the large settler nations that Britain has, both to draw forces from, or export industry to. Unless they can get the British or Americans to open up production lines for the ammunition used by their forces, they are going to have to reequip then with British or American weapons.
Now while this isn't too much of a problem for the airforce, which is already switching over to American aircraft. It is a big problem for the army, who will have to make some hard choices. Do they go the American route, the British route, or mix and match? It is reasonable to say that the Free Dutch Army in Britain, is by now using British armaments. However the Free Dutch Colonial Army, might prefer to use American weapons. The Dutch Navy is the one with the biggest problem, once its present supply of ammunition is used up, it will have to rearm it's ships with British or American weapons. Other than a small number of airforce and naval officers, sent out to impart their experience in combat, all reinforcements will have to come from the indigenous population of the DEI. It's no good sending army officers, their limited experience is in fighting mechanised warfare in Europe, and inappropriate to the DEI. The problem with this is do the Dutch start to promote locals to officer positions, and have they the time to train up the locals, to a reasonable standard. Their one advantage is that they are not in the first line of the upcoming conflict, and by the time the Japanese get around to them, they should have American and British support.
The French had all the problems that the Dutch did plus the additional complication of legitimacy. Unlike the Dutch colonial administration in the DEI, who could ignore the occupation government. Authority derives from the crown, the crown is at present in England, and it is to the crown we owe our allegiance. The French colonial administration unless it declared for the Free French, toed the occupation government line. Now once French North Africa has been occupied/liberated, and the majority of the French West and Central African colonies have switched allegiance, things will be very different. With the Free French able to recruit from traditional areas, they should by late 43, early 44, be able to raise two or more light infantry divisions for service in the Far East. And from French North Africa, settler and native units for service in Europe.
RR.
On the Pacific Front, here are my feelings:
Guam and Hong Kong are definitely going to fall in a few days, especially with some of the Hong Kong forces being sent to Malaya. So is a portion of the DEI...
The areas that will not fall are Wake Island (this is a given), a large portion of Burma, and (maybe/probably) Singapore...
If/when Malaya and the Philippines do fall, it will take longer than OTL (and cause heavier Allied and Japanese casualties; the Allies can make them up in the long run, the Japanese can't), and it will delay the DEI and Burma offensives. If a portion of Burma remains in Allied hands through the monsoon season, this butterflies the effects of the Bengal Famine of 1943-44, which will have knock-on effects on Indian independence postwar (to say nothing of the effects on Burma of a large portion it not falling; Burma might avoid its hellhole country status ITTL (again, depending on how much of it falls to the Japanese) (1))...
(1) If the Federated Shan States doesn't fall ITTL, and is a region of resistance for the British/Indians against the Japanese, it could become independent in its own right (IIRC, there was a thread about that a couple of weeks ago). If the British manage to convince the US to have Burma separate from the rest of Southeast Asia (as Fearless Leader did in his TL about Wake Island) as its own front, the chances of a portion of Burma remaining in Allied hands goes up and, here, the British can afford to send more divisions to Burma, with North Africa not being the larger front it was IOTL...
Just a short summary of my views; can't wait to see the Pacific War ITTL, especially with all the bear traps the Japanese are (unknowingly) heading into; one false move, and their best-laid plans start going to pieces...
Guam and Hong Kong are definitely going to fall in a few days, especially with some of the Hong Kong forces being sent to Malaya. So is a portion of the DEI...
The areas that will not fall are Wake Island (this is a given), a large portion of Burma, and (maybe/probably) Singapore...
If/when Malaya and the Philippines do fall, it will take longer than OTL (and cause heavier Allied and Japanese casualties; the Allies can make them up in the long run, the Japanese can't), and it will delay the DEI and Burma offensives. If a portion of Burma remains in Allied hands through the monsoon season, this butterflies the effects of the Bengal Famine of 1943-44, which will have knock-on effects on Indian independence postwar (to say nothing of the effects on Burma of a large portion it not falling; Burma might avoid its hellhole country status ITTL (again, depending on how much of it falls to the Japanese) (1))...
(1) If the Federated Shan States doesn't fall ITTL, and is a region of resistance for the British/Indians against the Japanese, it could become independent in its own right (IIRC, there was a thread about that a couple of weeks ago). If the British manage to convince the US to have Burma separate from the rest of Southeast Asia (as Fearless Leader did in his TL about Wake Island) as its own front, the chances of a portion of Burma remaining in Allied hands goes up and, here, the British can afford to send more divisions to Burma, with North Africa not being the larger front it was IOTL...
Just a short summary of my views; can't wait to see the Pacific War ITTL, especially with all the bear traps the Japanese are (unknowingly) heading into; one false move, and their best-laid plans start going to pieces...
The NEI had asked Australia in Mid 1940 for a number of items, 5 million rounds of .303inch ammo, mg links, mortars, anti-tank guns etc. Since Australia was only producing British equipment, this suggests the Dutch East Indies Army was seriously looking at switching to British equipment.
The Japanese planned meticulously on the basis of pretty sound intelligence of the forces that opposed them in OTL. In this ATL when (and how could they not?) they start to learn about the more powerful Western Allied naval and military formations that are being arrayed against them will they alter their plans before they start the Pacific War? And what changes will the Japanese command implement to their attack plans?
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
@Unknown
Interesting point of view, however I must disagree with some of your points. Yes Hong Kong will fall, the British never envisioned anything else. I doubt that Malaysia in total will fall, leaving only Singapore Island unconquered. Personally I think that the Japanese will be lucky to advance more than two thirds of the way along the peninsula. And without enjoying the success that they enjoyed IOTL, the ability to move troops over to the Burma campaign is removed, and it becomes very much harder to carry out.
The Japanese invasion of Malaya, was carried out on the proverbial shoe string, and came close to being an unmitigated disaster. Poor British leadership, troops that had received little or no realistic training, and a racist view of the Japanese, lead to the disaster that was the Malayan campaign IOTL. However ITTL, the training has significantly stepped up, and the military leadership is much stronger. IOTL, by the time the Japanese had reached Singapore, their logistics had collapsed, they were out of artillery ammunition, low on small arms ammunition, and the troops surviving by foraging. Every minute, hour, day that the Japanese can be held back and their timetable disrupted, brings the Japanese closer to the failure of their plans. Once the Japanese have been stopped from their rampage, and their logistic support collapses, the British should be able to push them back to halfway or better from Singapore. And if they can be held there until the start of the monsoon, then the Japanese are totally screwed.
The Japanese were incredible lucky IOTL, and managed to throw a succession of double sixes. They also had a liking for incredibly complex plans, that could fall apart if interfered with, and I believe that the changes that have taken place to date. Will have a major effect on events ITTL, and the Japanese could end up up the creek without a paddle.
The problem in the Philippines is simple, Dugout Doug, his failure to anticipate the Japanese strength, and skills. His personal beliefs, one American is worth ten Japanese, and all their equipment is cheap copies made of tin. His inability to play nice with other American commanders, and his contempt for FDR, he thought that he should be the President. And his ability to total piss of his British, British Commonwealth, and Dutch allies. Along with any real effort to make proper fall back provisions, and allow subordinate commanders to do what they thought was best given local conditions. Meant that he was a legend in his own bathtub, and nothing was ever his fault, but any success was his and his alone.
However even under his mediocre command, thanks to the changes already in place, events will be different. If the Japanese can not gain complete control over the South China Sea, British naval units, especially their submarines, will take a major toll of the Japanese logistics. The Japanese will be constantly looking over their shoulders, to events in Malaysia, and having to decide where to send their limited resources. Again the longer that the Americans can hold out, the bigger the spanner that they can throw in the Japanese plan. And the harder it becomes to take out the Dutch in the DEI. Every bit of grit thrown into the Japanese war machine, every tiny one percent change, will add up, until eventually we end up with a completely different result to that of OTL.
If the Japanese throw the odd eleven, ten or six, and just one or two snake eyes, instead of a constant succession of double sixes, things are going to be very different.
RR.
Interesting point of view, however I must disagree with some of your points. Yes Hong Kong will fall, the British never envisioned anything else. I doubt that Malaysia in total will fall, leaving only Singapore Island unconquered. Personally I think that the Japanese will be lucky to advance more than two thirds of the way along the peninsula. And without enjoying the success that they enjoyed IOTL, the ability to move troops over to the Burma campaign is removed, and it becomes very much harder to carry out.
The Japanese invasion of Malaya, was carried out on the proverbial shoe string, and came close to being an unmitigated disaster. Poor British leadership, troops that had received little or no realistic training, and a racist view of the Japanese, lead to the disaster that was the Malayan campaign IOTL. However ITTL, the training has significantly stepped up, and the military leadership is much stronger. IOTL, by the time the Japanese had reached Singapore, their logistics had collapsed, they were out of artillery ammunition, low on small arms ammunition, and the troops surviving by foraging. Every minute, hour, day that the Japanese can be held back and their timetable disrupted, brings the Japanese closer to the failure of their plans. Once the Japanese have been stopped from their rampage, and their logistic support collapses, the British should be able to push them back to halfway or better from Singapore. And if they can be held there until the start of the monsoon, then the Japanese are totally screwed.
The Japanese were incredible lucky IOTL, and managed to throw a succession of double sixes. They also had a liking for incredibly complex plans, that could fall apart if interfered with, and I believe that the changes that have taken place to date. Will have a major effect on events ITTL, and the Japanese could end up up the creek without a paddle.
The problem in the Philippines is simple, Dugout Doug, his failure to anticipate the Japanese strength, and skills. His personal beliefs, one American is worth ten Japanese, and all their equipment is cheap copies made of tin. His inability to play nice with other American commanders, and his contempt for FDR, he thought that he should be the President. And his ability to total piss of his British, British Commonwealth, and Dutch allies. Along with any real effort to make proper fall back provisions, and allow subordinate commanders to do what they thought was best given local conditions. Meant that he was a legend in his own bathtub, and nothing was ever his fault, but any success was his and his alone.
However even under his mediocre command, thanks to the changes already in place, events will be different. If the Japanese can not gain complete control over the South China Sea, British naval units, especially their submarines, will take a major toll of the Japanese logistics. The Japanese will be constantly looking over their shoulders, to events in Malaysia, and having to decide where to send their limited resources. Again the longer that the Americans can hold out, the bigger the spanner that they can throw in the Japanese plan. And the harder it becomes to take out the Dutch in the DEI. Every bit of grit thrown into the Japanese war machine, every tiny one percent change, will add up, until eventually we end up with a completely different result to that of OTL.
If the Japanese throw the odd eleven, ten or six, and just one or two snake eyes, instead of a constant succession of double sixes, things are going to be very different.
RR.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Personally I think that Hart was a realist, knew that Doug wasn't really up to the job, and wasn't able to play nice with the other nations commanders. That the basic tenants of WPO, were to leave the Philippians to their own devices, until the battle for the central Pacific had been won. And that if some or all of the Philippians are to fall, his best bet for keeping the US Astatic Fleet in being is to have an agreement with the British, for Singapore to be a fall back position. I know that many on the board believe that Wake is a better option, but it is twice the distance away, short on facilities, and very underdeveloped. While if only for the submarines, Singapore is a far better option, and if the British can retain BNB, this will provide a forward operating base. Hart is also a communicator, unlike Doug, and is willing to talk with, not at, both the British and Dutch. He wants options, and more than one, so that he can react to events and not be driven by them. It costs very little to talk, and if you can con the British, Dutch into having the discussion onboard their ships, you should get a nice drink out of it too.
RR.
RR.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Adm Hart, take 2.
Armies and Navels are different, very different, if this sounds as if I am stating the obvious, one fights on land the other at sea, this is not what I am referring to. Prior to the formation of mutual defence pacts post WWII, very few armies interacted with any other. Other than British troops deployed in the colonies, the majority of troops would never see a soldiers from another army.
Navies have throughout history interacted, both at sea, and in various ports around the world. And officers would expect to be invited to dine on board their opposites ships. Admirals would invite their fellow admirals to dinner and drinks. Unlike armies they did have matters of mutual interest to discuss. From simple navigation procedures, to mutual aid in times of distress. There were elaborate established procedures for ships meeting at sea, and in foreign harbours. It would be normal on foreign stations for games to take place between ships of different nations. Tug of war was very popular, with teams made up of tens of men. And a boxing competition between each ships champion, always drew a good crowd. Crews would meet in various drinking dens, much to the distress of the local constabulary, if it kicked off. So Hart meeting up with his opposite number and making his manners is a normal part and parcel of Naval life. And would not be a matter for major interest, unlike if Doug were to call on the British garrison commander Singapore.
RR.
Armies and Navels are different, very different, if this sounds as if I am stating the obvious, one fights on land the other at sea, this is not what I am referring to. Prior to the formation of mutual defence pacts post WWII, very few armies interacted with any other. Other than British troops deployed in the colonies, the majority of troops would never see a soldiers from another army.
Navies have throughout history interacted, both at sea, and in various ports around the world. And officers would expect to be invited to dine on board their opposites ships. Admirals would invite their fellow admirals to dinner and drinks. Unlike armies they did have matters of mutual interest to discuss. From simple navigation procedures, to mutual aid in times of distress. There were elaborate established procedures for ships meeting at sea, and in foreign harbours. It would be normal on foreign stations for games to take place between ships of different nations. Tug of war was very popular, with teams made up of tens of men. And a boxing competition between each ships champion, always drew a good crowd. Crews would meet in various drinking dens, much to the distress of the local constabulary, if it kicked off. So Hart meeting up with his opposite number and making his manners is a normal part and parcel of Naval life. And would not be a matter for major interest, unlike if Doug were to call on the British garrison commander Singapore.
RR.
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