Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

[fester]

North of Scapa Flow, November 5, 1942

Cold spray broke over the battleship’s bow. Behind USS North Carolina, USS Wasp followed, her flight deck wet and slippery. She had landed both of her dive bomber squadrons. Instead, she had raided the fighter complement of an American escort carrier to add an extra eight Wildcats to her air group. She would support only Grummans on this trip as the surface threat was minimal and the Luftwaffe had been seen to shift most of the anti-shipping units to Sicily. A little more than two thirds of an air group would be sufficient for her last trip into the Norwegian Sea before she would be recalled to Norfolk. All the planes were already tied down in the hanger.

Three hundred miles to the north of the departing covering force, PQ-23 was fighting through waves. Forty five merchant ships were being covered by a destroyer squadron and a cruiser division. A trio of tugs as well as an anti-aircraft vessel completed the close escort. The forty five ships were in nine columns of five.

As they steamed into the edge of the storm, SS Ohio fell out of line. A man fell overboard. The American tanker made bare steerage for half an hour before her skipper ordered full speed to rejoin the convoy. In good weather at this time of year, a man might last twenty minutes in the sea. He would have had a chance to survive 10 minutes in the twenty five foot rollers.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

North of Scapa Flow, November 5, 1942

Cold spray broke over the battleship’s bow. Behind USS North Carolina, USS Wasp followed, her flight deck wet and slippery. She had landed both of her dive bomber squadrons. Instead, she had raided the fighter complement of an American escort carrier to add an extra eight Wildcats to her air group. She would support only Grummans on this trip as the surface threat was minimal and the Luftwaffe had been seen to shift most of the anti-shipping units to Sicily. A little more than two thirds of an air group would be sufficient for her last trip into the Norwegian Sea before she would be recalled to Norfolk. All the planes were already tied down in the hanger.

Three hundred miles to the north of the departing covering force, PQ-23 was fighting through waves. Forty five merchant ships were being covered by a destroyer and a cruiser squadron. A trio of tugs as well as an anti-aircraft vessel completed the close escort. The forty five ships were in five columns of nine.

As they steamed into the edge of the storm, SS Ohio fell out of line. A man fell overboard. The American tanker made bare steerage for half an hour before her skipper ordered full speed to rejoin the convoy. In good weather at this time of year, a man might last twenty minutes in the sea. He would have had a chance to survive 10 minutes in the twenty five foot rollers.

Just finished the Cruel Sea by Nicholas Monsarrat - in one chapter when the ship is escorting a late war Russia Convoy he describes how a Seafire pilot bails out quite close to the corvette during Winter and from the sea cheerily waves to the long boat as it moves to pick him up and a few minutes later the long boat crew recovers his corpse

 

[docfl]

How about when the supply run to battan is going on, have a couple of battleships shelling the island somewhere else. that should cause a distraction

 

[Viper91]

How about when the supply run to battan is going on, have a couple of battleships shelling the island somewhere else. that should cause a distraction

Okay guys and gals, no offense, but this is getting less and less on the level of serious discussion and more on the level of trolling. Pretty much everything possible and a whole lot of impossible stuff has been discussed and ruled out after having holes poked into it.

A couple of battleships, even Iowa class, with no air cover, deep in enemy territory, would be easy pickings for Japanese aircraft. You'd be accomplishing nothing of value, throwing away two good warships, and condemning upwards of 3,000 sailors and marines to death or a POW camp.

Right now Nimitz has five carriers. Thats much better then this point in OTL. Five carriers plus escorts is still not enough to deal with both the 200-300 land based aircraft in the Philippines, plus Nagumo's five carriers.

You're not going to see the Pacific Fleet anywhere within 500 miles of the Philippines until the Marshalls, Marianas, and Caroline Islands have been cleared out and forward bases have been set up, and not until Nimitz has at least three or four Essex class carriers plus escorts on hand to bolster his current numbers.

 

[Draconis]

Just finished the Cruel Sea by Nicholas Monsarrat - in one chapter when the ship is escorting a late war Russia Convoy he describes how a Seafire pilot bails out quite close to the corvette during Winter and from the sea cheerily waves to the long boat as it moves to pick him up and a few minutes later the long boat crew recovers his corpse

That book is a fine old gem. The best novel I've ever read about the Battle of the Atlantic.

 

[Draconis]

Pretty much everything possible and a whole lot of impossible stuff has been discussed and ruled out after having holes poked into it.

Ruled out by who?

 

[Viper91]

Ruled out by who?

Well, fester himself judging from a number of his posts. Then of course Sloreck who has written several detailed reports.

A lot of the earlier ideas made some sense at least, but a lot of this discussion is bordering on Frisian Islands level. They generally assume a mission will go 100% perfect. They generally assume the Japanese will not notice one or more large ships of at least a couple thousand tons or larger operating where they shouldn't be. They generally assume that a large surface ship can somehow magically survive for 24 or more likely 48 hours, or possibly even longer deep in enemy territory with no support or friendly air cover.

 

[Draconis]

@fester I hope your riding out Florence OK. The weather reports she's starting to lose strength.

I have a question or two regarding your story for whenever you are not occupied with real life. Is the coastal defense artillery on Corregidor still largely operative? And if they are how far out can they provide accurate fire? Could they cover the area off the Southwest tip of Bataan?

I don't remember how the Japanese planted the mines in the approaches to Manila Bay if the batteries at Corregidor were operational. Were the mines air dropped?

 

[Draconis]

Well, fester himself judging from a number of his posts. Then of course Sloreck who has written several detailed reports.

I agree with you about the battleship idea being unsound.

The rest of your assessment is too heavily influenced by OTL considerations. There are more options in TTL.

 

[Donald Reaver]

That book is a fine old gem. The best novel I've ever read about the Battle of the Atlantic.

I picked that one up yesterday, have not started it yet. Looking forward to it as my father served in flower class corvettes in the R.C.N. He never talked about it.

 

[Draconis]

I picked that one up yesterday, have not started it yet. Looking forward to it as my father served in flower class corvettes in the R.C.N. He never talked about it.

I would guess your father would have experienced a very similar war as described in the Cruel Sea. Similar to what the RN corvette crews endured. The shitty, overcrowded conditions on the Flower class corvettes and the appalling North Atlantic weather. Those ships weren't designed originally with the idea they were going to be used to provide convoy escort protection the whole way across the Atlantic. Only coastal and port ASW patrols and convoy escort near the major ports. But they were pressed into that job even though they weren't well suited for it as a desperation stop gap. The stalwart RN and RCN crews made it work.

 

[fester]

@fester I hope your riding out Florence OK. The weather reports she's starting to lose strength.

I have a question or two regarding your story for whenever you are not occupied with real life. Is the coastal defense artillery on Corregidor still largely operative? And if they are how far out can they provide accurate fire? Could they cover the area off the Southwest tip of Bataan?

I don't remember how the Japanese planted the mines in the approaches to Manila Bay if the batteries at Corregidor were operational. Were the mines air dropped?

Most of the coastal defense guns are operational. The mortars have been hit harder by air attacks but with 12 hours warning, at least 6 mortars would be available. The long range guns can accurately shoot out to the SW tip of Bataan. The heavy guns have not fired since the battles on the Ternate shore were lost.

What are you thinking?

 

[Draconis]

Most of the coastal defense guns are operational. The mortars have been hit harder by air attacks but with 12 hours warning, at least 6 mortars would be available. The long range guns can accurately shoot out to the SW tip of Bataan. The heavy guns have not fired since the battles on the Ternate shore were lost.

What are you thinking?

Two things I had in mind. First was how to prevent or counter any further attempts by the Japanese Navy to mine the approaches to Manila Bay and Mariveles. The guns at Corregidor should dissuade any enemy vessels from approaching the entrances to Manila bay. Air dropped mines are a different problem. Possibly the Japanese don't have any in P.I.?

Second thought. My idea regarding the quick unloading scheme which I posted in #9933 in volume 1. The IJN would be prevented from interfering with the shore crews recovering the dropped off food skiffs at those locations on the Southwest tip of Bataan if these waters are protected by the guns of Corregidor.

 

[fester]

Northern France November 5, 1942


She ate a lump of cheese. Her valise was tucked underneath her seat. In her left hand was the next ticket. Nine more miles and she would transfer to another train. The ticket said it would leave in two hours. She did not believe that after spending eighteen months collecting repair and delay reports from the entire network. If the next train was at the station when she arrived, she would be happily surprised; if they left on time, she would be shocked. An evening journey was what she anticipated, anyways that would be safer as the American and English fighter sweeps never came around at night anyways.


A few miles away a quartet of Belgian flown Hawker Typhoons were running fast and low. They had already soured the milk of a dairy herd but their search and destroy mission this afternoon had mainly been a search mission. A sharp eyed wingman saw the trail of black smoke that the engine generated as it burned the cheap, low quality coal that had been allocated to this tertiary passenger run. The fighter bombers wiggled their wings and changed course. Eyes searched the sky for FW-190s preparing for a bounce but their deadliest threat was nowhere to be found. Two planes went in hot and fast, the dozen machine guns spitting lead for a twelve second burst. Most of the bullets dug into the soft ground ahead and before the engine but enough punched through the boiler, steam flaying the engineer and his assistant even as the train came to a stop.


Anna Marie was on the floor of the compartment looking for cover. The two petty bureaucrats who had been sitting across from her were slower than the spry young woman. One was still sitting up while the other accidently provided her with another shield as he landed atop her. In a few moments after the second pair of fighters strafed the train, the passengers started to stream out of the compartments. A few were showing bloody wounds but most of the strafing had gone either short or too far ahead of the train. Anna Marie finished her lunch and adjusted her skirt before she started walking to the next town where she could proceed on her journey home.

 

[fester]

Two things I had in mind. First was how to prevent or counter any further attempts by the Japanese Navy to mine the approaches to Manila Bay and Mariveles. The guns at Corregidor should dissuade any enemy vessels from approaching the entrances to Manila bay. Air dropped mines are a different problem. Possibly the Japanese don't have any in P.I.?

Second thought. My idea regarding the quick unloading scheme which I posted in #9933 in volume 1. The IJN would be prevented from interfering with the shore crews recovering the dropped off food skiffs at those locations on the Southwest tip of Bataan if these waters are protected by the guns of Corregidor.

The US can deny Japan sea movement within a 25,000 yard circle around Fort Mills.

The mine that got Surcouf was just outside of that circle.

 

[Killer in]

So close yet so far.

The US can deny Japan sea movement within a 25,000 yard circle around Fort Mills.

The mine that got Surcouf was just outside of that circle.

 

[Butchpfd]

Fester, a question, hoe far out are the Japanese mines? Were they air or ship laid? Also, were not the majority of Harbor defense mines placed by the Coast Artillery controlled mines.. how would this effect the situation, would it not be possible to deactivate a different route through the American mines for the subs?

Oh answer when safe... take care..

 

[Draconis]

The US can deny Japan sea movement within a 25,000 yard circle around Fort Mills.

The mine that got Surcouf was just outside of that circle.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Tjyorksgeezer]

That book is a fine old gem. The best novel I've ever read about the Battle of the Atlantic.

I must recommend "Escort" by Denys Rayner, the author of "The Enemy Below", great memoir of The Battle of the Atlantic, including commanding a corvette, nearly running into the Bismarck, destroyer command, getting sunk (Hms Warwick) very very good read.

 

[fester]

Fester, a question, hoe far out are the Japanese mines? Were they air or ship laid? Also, were not the majority of Harbor defense mines placed by the Coast Artillery controlled mines.. how would this effect the situation, would it not be possible to deactivate a different route through the American mines for the subs?

Oh answer when safe... take care..

The Japanese have a series of thin, linear fields between 25,000 and 35,000 yards away from Fort Mills placed between 6 and 18 feet under water for anti-shipping purposes and up to 80 feet deep for submarines. These mines have been laid by coastal craft operating out of Subic Bay. The fields are not particularly dense.

The US mines are all US Army mines and there are multiple paths within the coastal defense zone for ships to go through (under the guns at all times though)