Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

Now correct me if I'm wrong but in this TL the Germans are still occupying France?

And there are 21 Alpine Passes between Italy and France, I imagine that the 10th Army has plenty of alternative supply routes and options for a line of retreat.
 
Now correct me if I'm wrong but in this TL the Germans are still occupying France?

And there are 21 Alpine Passes between Italy and France, I imagine that the 10th Army has plenty of alternative supply routes and options for a line of retreat.
Yes
 
Now correct me if I'm wrong but in this TL the Germans are still occupying France?

And there are 21 Alpine Passes between Italy and France, I imagine that the 10th Army has plenty of alternative supply routes and options for a line of retreat.
Given only one of those seems to have a railway , logistically 20 of em don't count much. Doing WW2 logistics without rail or sea is not a happy place to be. Add in the air situation and plenty is not really accurate, they are just chock points to get eaten up in.
 
Railroads are not too hard to damage, but can be rather hard to really cripple unless you can take down a major bridge, or better yet, collapse a tunnel.
 
Now correct me if I'm wrong but in this TL the Germans are still occupying France?

And there are 21 Alpine Passes between Italy and France, I imagine that the 10th Army has plenty of alternative supply routes and options for a line of retreat.
a. Logistics.
Given only one of those seems to have a railway , logistically 20 of em don't count much. Doing WW2 logistics without rail or sea is not a happy place to be. Add in the air situation and plenty is not really accurate, they are just chock points to get eaten up in.
b. Terrain effects.
Railroads are not too hard to damage, but can be rather hard to really cripple unless you can take down a major bridge, or better yet, collapse a tunnel.
c. We are discussing that knock out the railroad problem in another thread. The thread is here.) But the gist for this situation is that "Un Tallboy nel Fréjus e il problema di trasporto diventa un po 'appiccicoso nel derriere" (One Tallboy in the Fréjus and the transportation problem becomes a bit sticky in the derriere.)

See here.



Source Google Maps.

BTW another reason for that tank battle at Alessandro. SPLIT the German front, there.
 
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story 2341
Batavia, Java November 30, 1943

The cruisers Jacob van Heemskerk and HMAS Canberra, along with four destroyers waited for the troop ships to exit the harbor. 35,000 Dutch soldiers, two thirds combat veterans of fighting against Japan, and the rest new recruits, were heading back to England. They would form a heavily reinforced division that would eventually be part of the liberation of the home provinces.
 
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c. We are discussing that knock out the railroad problem in another thread. The thread is here.) But the gist for this situation is that "Un Tallboy nel Fréjus e il problema di trasporto diventa un po 'appiccicoso nel derriere" (One Tallboy in the Fréjus and the transportation problem becomes a bit sticky in the derriere.)

Source Google Maps.

BTW another reason for that tank battle at Alessandro. SPLIT the German front, there.
Seeing that Tallboys weren't drop OTL nor TTL until June 1944, counting on November/December 1943 Tallboy attacks to destroy the 10th Army's logistics is not currently feasible.
 
Seeing that Tallboys weren't drop OTL nor TTL until June 1944, counting on November/December 1943 Tallboy attacks to destroy the 10th Army's logistics is not currently feasible.
Barnes Wallis had written in his " A Note on a Method of Attacking the Axis Powers" which he presented to the RAF sometime in 1940, his proposal for a bomb and the bomber to deliver it for just such a type of target. I do not have much respect for Sir Charles Portal, and that is one of the many reasons, I have no use for him.

Put that aside.

The Americans have nothing immediately in inventory that will crack that tunnel roof. It has to be a modified naval shell dropped from a Liberator. Or an AVENGER.

AN-Mk1Heavily armored warships1600 lb (726kg)209 lb (95 kg) Explosive DIntroduced May 1942. Capable of penetrating 5" (127mm) deck armor from a 4500' (1370m) in a 300 knot 60 degree dive. Too heavy for delivery by naval aircraft other than the TBF Avenger or SB2C Helldiver. Typical carrier loadout rarely exceeded 20 bombs.
 
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35k troops is a helluva reinforced division. Is there still a Royal Marine division ITTL? Can see them working together in the Benelux area as their lighter equipment and amphibious nature would be well suited to working there. Hopefully some of the Belgian expat forces can work with them too. Even if their only contribution is to scream “Antwerp is nothing without clearing the Scheldt” to as many brass hats as possible, it’ll make a huge difference.
 
Batavia, Java November 30, 1943

The cruisers Jacob van Heemskerk and HMAS Canberra, along with four destroyers waited for the troop ships to exit the harbor. 35,000 Dutch soldiers, two thirds combat veterans of against Japan, and the rest new recruits, were heading back to England. They would form a heavily reinforced division that would eventually be part of the liberation of the home provinces.
two thirds combat veterans of "the war" against Japan
 
Who you gonna call?


DAM-BUSTERS!

View attachment 582585
It could probably be attempted with the 12,000lb Cookie, but they appear to have been less effective when used on specific targets, Operation Garlic was a bit of a flop. Although dropping them en masse could be tried?

In extremis it might however be possible to re-open the Fell Railway over the Mont Cenis Pass.
Some of the rolling stock still exists to this day.
 
35k troops is a helluva reinforced division.
British infantry divisions were ~16,000 (IIRC) men so you've got (theoretically) two divisions worth of men plus 10% casualty replacements.

On the other hand, my Granddad's division took 96% casualties (from memory again) between June '44 and April '45 so depending on how you look at things you've also got enough manpower for a year in combat for an infantry division plus 3,000 odds and sods.
 
The Overlord divisional slice reached up to about 35,000 troops, so this would give the Dutch a division and a good assortment of CS and CSS units to start rebuilding their army.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
The Overlord divisional slice reached up to about 35,000 troops, so this would give the Dutch a division and a good assortment of CS and CSS units to start rebuilding their army.
Yes, I tried to find the maximum size of 2NZEF, to give an example of the in-theatre support behind a deployed division. They had training, hospitals, replacement pool (of varying size at different times) etc.
 
It could probably be attempted with the 12,000lb Cookie, but they appear to have been less effective when used on specific targets, Operation Garlic was a bit of a flop. Although dropping them en masse could be tried?

In extremis it might however be possible to re-open the Fell Railway over the Mont Cenis Pass.
Some of the rolling stock still exists to this day.
I did look at the "Cookie". I had to reject it. Any bomb dropped on that tunnel has to be an earth penetrator and explode deep enough and adjacent enough to the tunnel to collapse it. The only types of bomb I could find in 1939-1942 that begin to fit the requirement are converted battleship main gun rounds designed to kill armored ships as air dropped penetrators. And aside from obsolete US or Japanese 35.5 cm bore body shells converted into "battleship killers" or their British equivalents, nothing available works as an earth penetrator. SAPPY will shatter on that granite and mortar case as seen. I'm not even sure the Japanese 41 cm bombs would work on the problem. One has to drop the bomb from 7,000 meters and it has to hit point down at least 60 degrees to the vertical to bury into either entry way and explode with at least 50 kg of fill after penetration at or near to tunnel level near either exits to blow out a roof or side wall. That is at least 10-15 meters of solid rock to punch into. A Tallboy can do it. An AN Mk1 or 2? Ehhh.
 
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