Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

Driftless

Donor
I don't believe we've heard yet about the changing role of Italian forces on mainland Greece or in the Soviet Union - with the coup underway. I could imagine a deal of chaos between Italian and German forces(as we've seen so far elsewhere)
 
Happened more than once in Italy,Iirc. Lots of second generation Italians knew where the family came from down to the street number.
My Grandfather was stationed in Naples for a while during WWII. He knew his brother-in-law grew up in Naples and wrote a letter back to the US asking if uncle Louie had any family he wanted checked up on.

Uncle Louie's response was "Don't tell anyone over there you have ever heard of me or know where I am!"

Still finding out my families secrets over the years, but nobody ever learned what Louie did before immigrating to America.
 
I don't believe we've heard yet about the changing role of Italian forces on mainland Greece or in the Soviet Union - with the coup underway. I could imagine a deal of chaos between Italian and German forces(as we've seen so far elsewhere)
There are what 2-3 corps worth of allied troups already in Attica and for that matter thousands of partisans further up north. Say goodbye to anything south of the Olympus at least.
 
Story 2233
Turkish Thrace, 0700 September 25, 1943

The border guards lowered the gate. It was more symbolic than anything else as a train at a quarter head of steam could bowl through the wooden barrier without noticing it. The orders had come from above that the chatter was getting loud and clear that something big was happening throughout the Meditarrean Basin. Turkey was not yet ready for war. Her armies on the European side of the Straits had been reinforced with units taken from the eastern and southern garrisons. New equipment from the United States and Great Britain had been distributed throughout the summer. The 3rd Army could hold with their new anti-tank guns and large stockpiles of factory fresh shells, but it could not advance. If the chatter turned out to be nothing, the freight trains could resume their regular trade tomorrow or next week with an apology and a few carloads thrown in for good measure. If the chatter turned out to be something, pausing everything would be quite valuable as information cascaded.
 
Story 2234
Brenner Pass, 0730 September 25, 1943

The mortars fired again. German paratroopers were trying to clear out the police station held by a few dozen Alpini. The police station was the edge of the Italian held territory in the border town. The first rush to seize all the essential facilities had failed. The passenger cars that had been attached to the coal train had held several hundred Germans who were ready for a betrayal. Neither side was strong enough to force the other back. The police station was an ideal forward bastion and if the Germans could take it, they could consolidate their lines and wait for reinforcements to come up from Austria. Two score of Alpini were already in the mountains walking along goat paths and overburdened with dynamite and plastic explosives to damage the sole path of their new enemy's succor. It would be a race; could tanks arrive before the rails were damaged?
 
It seems both sides where more prepared for the Italian switcheroo this time around. Which on the balance is likely going to favour the Italians
 
New equipment from the United States and Great Britain had been distributed throughout the summer.
I wonder how much of the requested equipment the Allies provided during summer 1943. I doubt the Allies could reach the turkish quota even with the increased production in TTL. In TTL the Allies have to deal with a more powerful Free France that demands a share of the production (I think we have established that the French could potentially field around 13-15 divisions, especially after the liberation of Corsica) and also the Greek Army. As @Lascaris has mentioned before, Greeks have the manpower now for around 9 divisions.

Between February and December 1943 the Allies provided Turkey with 350 tanks, 48 SP guns, 300 AA guns, 300 field guns, 620 mortars, 500 anti-tank guns and 99,000 rifles and machine guns. I doubt much more could be spared with the aforementioned commitments. In Tehran, foreign minister Numan mentioned that the delivered material was 4% of what Turkey expected. He mentioned for example that he expected 300 lorries per month.

Moreover, there is the challenges presented by logistics: In December 1943, general Wilson estimated that even if the Allies could provide everything Turkey requested it would take 3 years for the turkish railways to haul the material. Perhaps it is an exaggeration but still the rail network posed severe difficulties. I doubt the Allies are in a position to upgrade the turkish infrastructure as they already have to upgrade the greek one in the Balkan Front and they will have to prepare stockpiles for the coming Italian Campaign and Overlord. Thus, I doubt that more material could have been sent.

It should be mentioned that even in December 1943 the major Allied diplomatic effort was not so much focused on chrome but on establishing airbases in Turkey to bomb Ploesti. In TTL there is no need for these airbases.

When one reads the diplomatic background of the Allied-Turkish dealings, it is very clear that the Turks did they best to avoid being dragged in the war (quite sensibly actually). While they could have declared war on Germany in September 1944 when Bulgaria switched sides and the closest german field army was hundreds of miles away they didn't. They only declared war in February 1945 when the Soviet Armies were on the Oder and the WAllied ones on the Rhine.

Source: https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=is4WAAAAYAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PR11
 
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I don't believe we've heard yet about the changing role of Italian forces on mainland Greece or in the Soviet Union - with the coup underway. I could imagine a deal of chaos between Italian and German forces(as we've seen so far elsewhere)
That's an interesting question. In OTL the Germans disarmed and captured the Italian forces in Greece. I don't know what exactly became of the Italian army in the Soviet Union in OTL. I don't think the Italians will submit to surrendering to the Germans in Greece in TTL but what would happen in the S.U.? They're far from home and completely cut off from supplies by the Germans. How big is the Italian army in the Soviet Union in TTL? Would Stalin consider supplying them if the Italians agreed to fight their way back to Romania? Could they make it home that way? What other help to the Italian army could be provided?
 
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I wonder how much of the requested equipment the Allies provided during summer 1943. I doubt the Allies could reach the turkish quota even with the increased production in TTL. In TTL the Allies have to deal with a more powerful Free France that demands a share of the production (I think we have established that the French could potentially field around 13-15 divisions, especially after the liberation of Corsica) and also the Greek Army. As @Lascaris has mentioned before, Greeks have the manpower now for around 9 divisions.

Between February and December 1943 the Allies provided Turkey with 350 tanks, 48 SP guns, 300 AA guns, 300 field guns, 620 mortars, 500 anti-tank guns and 99,000 rifles and machine guns. I doubt much more could be spared with the aforementioned commitments. In Tehran, foreign minister Numan mentioned that the delivered material was 4% of what Turkey expected. He mentioned for example that he expected 300 lorries per month.


Source: https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=is4WAAAAYAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PR11
The Turks are fairly confident that they can win or at least not lose long enough in a static war in European Thrace where the force density is high enough and the positions are interlocking enough that better German tactics and equipment won't matter too much, especially if the RAF and USAAC can intervene by Day 4. In this story, the Turks are more than happy to fort up and look mean to anyone and everyone involved.
 

Driftless

Donor
The Turks are fairly confident that they can win or at least not lose long enough in a static war in European Thrace where the force density is high enough and the positions are interlocking enough that better German tactics and equipment won't matter too much, especially if the RAF and USAAC can intervene by Day 4. In this story, the Turks are more than happy to fort up and look mean to anyone and everyone involved.
Also, wouldn't some of the equipment transferred to the Turks be heavy on the obsolescent/obsolete side? M2 & M3 tanks (whatever hasn't already been shipped off), M3 scout cars, P-35, 36, and 39 fighters, B18 Bolos, surplus bolt-action Springfields, Enfields, even some Krags? Probably some reconditioned captured materials too.

Of course, there will be Italian forces to rearm, along with expanded French and Greek forces too!

Somebody(s) better start expanding their steel-making abilities 😲
 
In this story, the Turks are more than happy to fort up and look mean to anyone and everyone involved.
I think that was the case also in OTL after December 1943, even without a Balkan Front. The Turks were pretty determined to defend themselves if attacked. My post was mostly on the possibility of Turkey entering the war without being attacked. Inonu was a very sensible and capable leader and deftly avoided paying for the imported hardware in blood.
 
That's an interesting question. In OTL the Germans disarmed and captured the Italian forces in Greece. I don't know what exactly became of the Italian army in the Soviet Union in OTL. I don't think the Italians will submit to surrendering to the Germans in Greece in TTL but what would happen in the S.U.? They're far from home and completely cut off from supplies by the Germans. How big is the Italian army in the Soviet Union in TTL? Would Stalin consider supplying them if the Italians agreed to fight there was back to Romania? Could they make it home that way? What other help to the Italian army could be provided?
Considering the Italian bomber(transports?) in a previous post I think they might be better prepared and moving at least a number of them quickly out of Greece?
The army in the SU is more likely hard core fascists that might keep fighting? Even if they are not is the most likley to be captured by Germans or surrender to Soviets and then be transported to Iran for GB to ship back to Italian front? (like OTL Polish forces)
 
Considering the Italian bomber(transports?) in a previous post I think they might be better prepared and moving at least a number of them quickly out of Greece?
The army in the SU is more likely hard core fascists that might keep fighting? Even if they are not is the most likley to be captured by Germans or surrender to Soviets and then be transported to Iran for GB to ship back to Italian front? (like OTL Polish forces)
TTL? There are 9 allied divisions in place. I'd like to see the Germans doing the trick of disarming a dozen Italian divisions while holding back the allies simultaneously. In the Soviet Union... how many tank corps will be passing though the Italian lines?
 
TTL? There are 9 allied divisions in place. I'd like to see the Germans doing the trick of disarming a dozen Italian divisions while holding back the allies simultaneously.
How many german divisions do you reckon could have been deployed in Greece? They have the single rail line to support said deployment.
 
The army in the SU is more likely hard core fascists that might keep fighting? Even if they are not is the most likley to be captured by Germans or surrender to Soviets and then be transported to Iran for GB to ship back to Italian front? (like OTL Polish forces)
Yes, this maybe. It would depend on who's commanding the Italian army there. I would think Stalin would be quick to seize the opportunity to accept the surrender of the Italian army units facing the Red Army. Repatriating the now, more or less, Allied soldiers through Iran is quite probable especially with diplomatic pressure from the U.K. and the U.S. Presumably as part of the deal all the Italian equipment is handed over undamaged and intact to the Russians. Also where possible I would think the Russians would be quick to move forces into as much as territory as was held by the Italians before the Germans do the same. This is all good for Stalin and his generals.
 

Driftless

Donor
The other crises to come. How do you help feed all of the Italians(soldiers and civilians) who will likely be short of rations shortly? Would that be similar for the Greek civilians too, or are they relatively self-sufficient?
 
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