Kevian Rus vs HRE?

As far as I know, the German/Russian rivalry is a relatively new phenomenon. So, how could we get it to start up earlier? Is there any realistic POD that would result the medieval Russians going to war against the Holy Roman Empire?
 
If Poland had at any time joined the HRE and the Teutonic Order would have survived longer, conflict between Russia and HRE would be a possiblilty. But I think that they would more likely co-operate against enemies such as the Mongols, Ottoman Empire, Tartares etc...
Best bet would be a war over the succession of the polish throne.
 
Or you can get a personal union between Kievan Rus and Poland, ending with Kievan-Poland Commonwealth against Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. And throw in some Hussites.
 
As far as I know, the German/Russian rivalry is a relatively new phenomenon. So, how could we get it to start up earlier? Is there any realistic POD that would result the medieval Russians going to war against the Holy Roman Empire?

Which set of medieval Russians? Until well after the first Mongol invasion, Russia was a mare's nest of city-states or princedoms, which were loosely confederated but spent more time plotting or waging war against each otehr than in peace. The first Mongol incursion had almost led to unification, but afterwards the usual bickering just started anew and the next invasion 15 years(?) later was even able to co-opt some of the princedoms by threats or promises.

Having centralised Russia at this time requires several major PODs, possibly even geographical ones (higher population density etc.)
 

Blair152

Banned
If the Kievan Rus had been stronger militarily, then it would have been able
to hold off the Mongols.
 
Kievan Rus was about as united as 1400s HRE.

That said, Vladmir Monomach vs. his German counterpart could have really gone either way depending on how their vassals, allies, and nearby neutral factions play their cards.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
As far as I know, the German/Russian rivalry is a relatively new phenomenon.
Eh, not really. You can make a pretty valid argument that it started in the early 1240s with the German knightly orders trying to expand their Baltic conquests into Russia in the wake of the Mongol and Swedish invasions.

Granted, the Russo-German rivalry was overshadowed by the Russo-Swedish and Russo-Polish rivalries, but if you examine the history of Russo-German relations you'll find that the nations (moreso the governments if not necessarily the general populace) were consitently wary of one another, the major exception being that the existence of Poland was utterly intolerable.

(And don't forget that Russo-German relations aren't limited to Russia and Germany, they include Austria and Austria-Hungary as well.)

That being said, I don't really think a Kievan Rus-HRE rivalry is all that possible; they were rather far away from one another and didn't really have a whole lot of conflicting or overlapping interests. With more HRE support for the knightly orders, however, you could kickstart a fairly intense HRE-Novgorod rivalry pretty early on.

Other than that, well I suppose a Kievan Rus-Hungary could create some interesting political butterflies, or perhaps the previously-mentioned Kievan Rus-Polish union. Of course religion is going to play a big issue in achieving both. If the Kievans convert to Catholicism for the sake of a union with Hungary or Poland (ASB IMO), for example, the rivalry will probably develop later. You didn't really see a whole lot of German-Polish antagonism in the early centuries partially due to a common faith. It's only until Protestentism became dominant in northern Germany that you really see a rise in German incursions into Polish lands. I'm not saying religion was the main thing causing/styming the German's aims in the east, but they certainly played an important role, especially concerning legitimacy.
 
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