Kentucky in the CSA.

This has been a question I've even stated before and became quite and arguement point on the other threads.

As Snake Featherston said, the CSA is able to pull off a Super-Perryville and the Army of Ohio has turned tail to Louisville in October 1862.

By the end of 1862 around 3/4 of Kentucky and 2/3 of Tennessee is in Confederate hands.

Kentucky is ruled as "spoils of war" in the peace treaty and becomes an official CS state.

Now, Kentucky was a heavily divided state in OTL's Civil War, most of Western Kentucky and Southern Kentucky was pro Confederate. The Bluegrass region of the state resembled Middle Tennessee in terms of politics (Middle TN went on to be strongly Confederate), there were Unionist and Secessionist counties in the region. Eastern Kentucky remained largely Unionist while hamlets of secessionist pro-Confederate counties were sprinkled in the region.

Now that Kentucky is in the Confederate States of America, how do some of the more Unionist locals and Confederate population in the state deal with each other?

It should be noted that after the Civil War in OTL much of East KY broke out in nasty blood feuds based on whether what side some families were on in the War, the Hatfield-McCoy feud is the most notorious of them with Unionist McCoys and Confederate Guerilla Hatfields.

A good link to reference: http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/htallant/border/bs11/copeland.htm
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
I think Turtledove got it about right; the best the Confederacy can hope for is a referendum in Kentucky. Turtledove got it wrong in extending this to Missouri. I'm also unconvinced about his "Kentucky would vote to join the CSA" argument.
 
I believe that controlling Kentucky is what would get the Union at the bargaining table, I do not believe that the Union would ever give up any land to them. The best the CSA could ever get would be recognition.
 
I think Turtledove got it about right; the best the Confederacy can hope for is a referendum in Kentucky. Turtledove got it wrong in extending this to Missouri. I'm also unconvinced about his "Kentucky would vote to join the CSA" argument.

Please excuse my ignorance, but when did Turtledove have Kentucky referendum into the CSA? I mean, the way the CSA gets KY is because of a successful Heartland Offensive the last I read it.

Though, I'm compelled to think that the CSA would use Kentucky to bargain as in "You Rebs can have Kentucky and Indian Territory/Arizona territory if you drop your claim on Missouri, Maryland and West Virginia. And we ain't letting you have ANYTHING else".

The point of the thread however, is the situation the state of Kentucky is in AFTER it is in the CSA. For starters the "Army of Tennessee" is now the "Army of Kentucky".

Frankfort remains as state capitol, Louisville experiences an economic rattle from losing it's economy from across the Ohio. And different Pro and Anti-Confederate blood feuds erupt across the state, especially in the Big Sandy River valley, and Governor Simon B. Buckner has to put them down.
 
The scenario he mentions is that Jeff Davis draws a few lines differently on a map and gives Braxton Bragg full authority over Edmund Kirby Smith and a few other such CS Departments near him, raising his total troop numbers rather higher than they in fact were, while he in this case actually benefits from the excess of ammunition in terms of using it to fight this super-version of the Battle of Chaplin Hills. Essentially Bragg uses the same dirty trick he did IOTL to trigger the battle, with the same background as per OTL (the Army of the Ohio's complete collapse of command, including Davis's murder of Nelson and the attempt to depose Buell and replace him with Thomas that led to a complete collapse of faith in Buell), with the thirst and desperation of the Army of the Ohio compounded by a large number of inexperienced troops.

In the fight that follows Bragg's better-disciplined force fights all out of proportion to its numbers and routs the Army of the Ohio....because of inexperience and the total command collapse that preceded the battle. The serious fighting would be with people like Sheridan and Thomas and would most likely wind up being rear-guard actions. This would be only superficially a triumph against numerical odds, in qualitative terms and in terms of troops suited to fight actually quantitative terms the terms of this battle favor the Confederacy.

At the same time even with this army routed Bragg has not the food nor the popular support to make staying in Kentucky viable and he'd owe this victory far more to the timely (from his point of view) disintegration of the Army of the Ohio's cohesion to anything he actually did.
 
Please excuse my ignorance, but when did Turtledove have Kentucky referendum into the CSA?

Takes place in Guns of the South not my favorite Turtledove book I must say. Part of the Peace treaty after Lee takes Washington.
 
Takes place in Guns of the South not my favorite Turtledove book I must say. Part of the Peace treaty after Lee takes Washington.

Oh that explains it! :D

I was going by Turtledove's TL191 logic.

But, in fairness, Kentucky siding with the country that has those "nifty future-y repeaters that can drop 1000 yanks in one volley" is pretty logical.
 
Harry Turtledove is not a source one should aspire to when dealing with the Civil War:rolleyes:

I was joking about Turtledove's logic on it, nothing to get a pent up over.

So, in a post-62 Maryland-Super Perryville CS victory where the CS gets Kentucky.

What condition and situation is the Bluegrass State in?
 
Bragg has to leave KY soon after Perryville no matter what happens. The logistical situation in the South means he can't feed his troops in KY unless he does a Sherman. If he does that he riles the population in KY and when the Union DOES reinvade it will have a lot more support in KY.
 
Bragg has to leave KY soon after Perryville no matter what happens. The logistical situation in the South means he can't feed his troops in KY unless he does a Sherman. If he does that he riles the population in KY and when the Union DOES reinvade it will have a lot more support in KY.

However, many Kentuckians were waiting for the CS to prove themselves in Kentucky, with Bragg proving himself and then some against the Army of Ohio. It may sway some important opinions within the state.

Add to the fact that large regions of the state were pro-Confederate, so that should also count for something when the state is under CS control.
 
However, many Kentuckians were waiting for the CS to prove themselves in Kentucky, with Bragg proving himself and then some against the Army of Ohio. It may sway some important opinions within the state.

Add to the fact that large regions of the state were pro-Confederate, so that should also count for something when the state is under CS control.

That doesn't handwave him food. Those sections of KY that are Pro-Confederate are unlikely to stay that way if he steals from them which he will have to do if he stays .
 
However, many Kentuckians were waiting for the CS to prove themselves in Kentucky, with Bragg proving himself and then some against the Army of Ohio. It may sway some important opinions within the state.

Add to the fact that large regions of the state were pro-Confederate, so that should also count for something when the state is under CS control.

Except the food was not grown in the Bluegrass country most sympathetic to the Confederacy: cotton was. Bragg needs food, not goodwill.
 
Except the food was not grown in the Bluegrass country most sympathetic to the Confederacy: cotton was. Bragg needs food, not goodwill.


In fact he brought 20,000 rifles with him to KY hoping to rally the people around him. Almost all of them went back with him as he picked up only a few hundred recruits.
 
In fact he brought 20,000 rifles with him to KY hoping to rally the people around him. Almost all of them went back with him as he picked up only a few hundred recruits.

He also brought the ammunition for all 20,000 of those rifles. The ammunition at least would *have* to play a role in super-Perryville as it's the primary means Bragg would be able to put up a sufficient fight against an army that even at its weakest would outnumber him by a very big margin. As even if he routs the entire army Sheridan and Thomas are perfectly able to give him a full-scale battle in a rearguard action alone (and at least Thomas would be wanting to fight to prove his loyalty to Buell while Sheridan was too incapable of avoiding battle even when he sometimes arguably should have).
 
He also brought the ammunition for all 20,000 of those rifles. The ammunition at least would *have* to play a role in super-Perryville as it's the primary means Bragg would be able to put up a sufficient fight against an army that even at its weakest would outnumber him by a very big margin. As even if he routs the entire army Sheridan and Thomas are perfectly able to give him a full-scale battle in a rearguard action alone (and at least Thomas would be wanting to fight to prove his loyalty to Buell while Sheridan was too incapable of avoiding battle even when he sometimes arguably should have).


Well it also shows Reggies scenario to be wrong. There weren't huge numbers of Kentukians willing to join the CSA army by Perryville. Those who were willing left the state already (mostly to TN IIRC) and joined up the other state. Most of the people left are the people who are unwilling to fight for the CSA.
 
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Well it also shows Reggies scenario to be wrong. There weren't huge numbers of Kentukians willing to join the CSA army by Perryville. Those who were willing left the state already (mostly to TN IIRC) and joined up the other state. Most of the people left are the people who are unwilling to fight for the CSA.

Remember that whole line of "Waiting for the CSA to prove itself"? Now, if the CSA can score a victory, and in Kentucky, what is keeping some of these people from "siding with a winner"?
 
Remember that whole line of "Waiting for the CSA to prove itself"? Now, if the CSA can score a victory, and in Kentucky, what is keeping some of these people from "siding with a winner"?


Because they already left? The people who were strongly for the Confederacy already left to join the army elsewhere. The ones left that were pro-CSA were those who weren't willing to die for it.
 
Though, I'm compelled to think that the CSA would use Kentucky to bargain as in "You Rebs can have Kentucky and Indian Territory/Arizona territory if you drop your claim on Missouri, Maryland and West Virginia. And we ain't letting you have ANYTHING else".

So the Union gets to keep Galveston, New Orleans, half of Arkansas, Jacksonville, parts of northern Virginia and most of the North Carolina coast? And gives away Arizona territory, which the CSA does not hold?

That's not at all credible. Even CSA backwaters like Florida will have more clout at the bargaining table than the governorless puppet government of Kentucky. The best the CSA can hope for is exchanging occupied Kentucky to get back the rest of Tennessee and Arkansas.

The point of the thread however, is the situation the state of Kentucky is in AFTER it is in the CSA. For starters the "Army of Tennessee" is now the "Army of Kentucky".

Can you say Bleeding Kentucky? The Confederates will find enforcing minority rule on an armed, free population a good deal harder than keeping an unarmed slave population under control. Brutal repression of white men will give the Confederacy an even worse name and risk reigniting the Civil War. Add in at least tacit support of the Unionists by slaves and you have years of internal warfare.
 
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