Keeping Vinland settled

[Makemakean]

Okay, then I'll allow the non-conversion of King Olaf Tryggvason to be the POD, and allow for TTL to begin with an installment that is preliminary summarized as this:

Leif meets king Olaf Tryggvason in Trondheim in 999, as the King is celebrating his wedding with Sigrid the Haughty. Leif have just returned from Greenland. The King informs him of how he was almost killed five years ago while travelling between England and Norway (as in OTL), and that he interpreted this as a sign from the Gods that they are unsatisfied with him and his subjects for the spread of Christianity in Norway, and that the worship of the deities of Asgård must be defended and more firmly established. He therefore sends Leif back to Greenland with the mission to build a large temple there along with a pagan priest, Asgeir, and two warriors from his fleet. Leif accepts the mission and heads for Greenland.

As in OTL, in 1002/1003, he still goes to explore Vinland. However, the market with the native Americans ends peacefully, as the bull is captured before escaping by one of the warriors, and thus never interrupts the meeting. After that, peaceful relations between the Norse and the natives are established and the Vinland settlement begins to grow.


I will of course write this in full detail in a couple of days, and then a start a new thread, as it appears that I've found a reasonable POD. I already have a few ideas about what the next two centuries will look like, as both European and American history will be radically changed by King Olaf's non-conversion.

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Okay, then I'll allow the non-conversion of King Olaf Tryggvason to be the POD, and allow for TTL to begin with an installment that is preliminary summarized as this:

Leif meets king Olaf Tryggvason in Trondheim in 999, as the King is celebrating his wedding with Sigrid the Haughty. Leif have just returned from Greenland. The King informs him of how he was almost killed five years ago while travelling between England and Norway (as in OTL), and that he interpreted this as a sign from the Gods that they are unsatisfied with him and his subjects for the spread of Christianity in Norway, and that the worship of the deities of Asgård must be defended and more firmly established. He therefore sends Leif back to Greenland with the mission to build a large temple there along with a pagan priest, Asgeir and two warriors from his fleet. Leif accepts the mission and heads of for Greenland.

As in OTL, in 1002/1003, he still goes to explore Vinland. However, the market with the native Americans ends peacefully, as the bull is captured before escaping by one of the warriors, and thus never interrupts the meeting. After that, peaceful relations between the Norse and the natives are established and the Vinland settlement begins to grow.


I will of course write this in full detail in a couple of days, and then a start a new thread, as it appears that I've found a reasonable POD. I already have a few ideas about what the next two centuries will look like, as both European and American history will be radically changed by King Olaf's non-conversion.

Pretty good so far. Oh Btw if you want to make a full timeline make a thread specifically for this tl

 

[Dan1988]

fair enough - though there have been a few ruinic inscriptions found farther afield then maine that have recently proven to be real (or as real as they can prove using the tech. they have). but i degress...

Many of those that are "found" south and west of Maine are generally regarded as fakes by scholars and Norse specialists alike, even when pop culture disagrees.

 

[Makemakean]

Many of those that are "found" south and west of Maine are generally regarded as fakes by scholars and Norse specialists alike, even when pop culture disagrees.

I find myself forced to agree. Of the runestones found in America that we still have access to (Kensington, Heavener, Spirit Ponds) can either be dismissed immediately for possessing linguistic features indicating a 19th century origin at the earliest, or they are still the subject of much controversy (Noman's Island). The Vérendrye runestone is lost since centuries, and we can only speculate as to its inscriptions.

As cool as it would have been had the Norse made it further south, most things beyond, (and even including) the Maine penny, should be considered with extreme skepticism. I will therefore make the settlements in Vinland rather conservative initially, as I believe that it would take the Norse at least a couple of decades to form stable settlements in Newfoundland, Labrador, Northern Quebec, New Brünswick and Nova Scotia before they start seriously exploring lands south of Maine, or going further westward. They would probably first discover the Great Lakes no earlier than 1100. However, given enough time and not too hostile indigenous people, I am convinced we would have had longships sailing in Lakes Huron, Ontario and Michigan.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Many of those that are "found" south and west of Maine are generally regarded as fakes by scholars and Norse specialists alike, even when pop culture disagrees.

most probably are fakes - but, the kensington ruin stone i am inclined to believe is real, if only because the dialect of ruins written upon the stone was not "discovered" elsewhere for almost a hundred years. kind of hard to write a language that has been lost for ~800 years - and it fits in (the message) with old records back in norway. plus, this one also had wood-acid staining upon it. something that in the 1800s (as far as my knowledge goes) could not be faked - its something that actually takes time to stain the rock.

now that being said, from a logical standpoint, since the norse were coming to north america for ~ 400 years from greenland for supplies, it only makes sense that some of them would have explored farther inland. i mean, once you cross the N. Atlantic, sailing up the east coast rivers is really not that hard, but i degress,,,

still interested in seeing where this goes...

(ps - the farther south, to a point, you make the colony, the better it will do. it's a fine balance though; the farther south you go, the more natives there will be. eitherway, please keep this alive =D)

 

[Strategos' Risk]

While it may be following Empty America, I like the idea of an increasingly Christianized Norse Vinland falling into internecine struggle, leading to the creation of a separate pagan Norse state elsewhere in the New World, which by the zealotry of its followers continues to follow the old ways, and becomes an enclave of paganism.

Would be ironic if Baltic, and later, Lithuanian pagans similarly go to the New World and successfully preserve their beliefs there, in contrast to the Christian sects of OTL. We could have some heretics leaving as well, including the Cathars... but perhaps that's too much repetition of EA. Maybe Bogomils instead?

 

[kasumigenx]

While it may be following Empty America, I like the idea of an increasingly Christianized Norse Vinland falling into internecine struggle, leading to the creation of a separate pagan Norse state elsewhere in the New World, which by the zealotry of its followers continues to follow the old ways, and becomes an enclave of paganism.

Would be ironic if Baltic, and later, Lithuanian pagans similarly go to the New World and successfully preserve their beliefs there, in contrast to the Christian sects of OTL. We could have some heretics leaving as well, including the Cathars... but perhaps that's too much repetition of EA. Maybe Bogomils instead?

I actually like Vinland surviving in any TL with the same POD, the only question is how far could Vinland expand?

 

[Stephen]

I actually like Vinland surviving in any TL with the same POD, the only question is how far could Vinland expand?

In order to survive they need to have a population large enough to fight off any attacks from native tribes witch are a regular inevitability between tribal subsistence societies due to the Malthusian cycle. But once they have a secure foothold natural population growth will bring more land under cultivation and there higher population density and reproduction rate from Norse agriculture combined with better weaponry and resistance to farm animal diseases will allow them to conquer and displace native tribes whenever they need more land. So they will expand exponentially. At first they will have difficulties but the larger the Norse population becomes the greater there advantages other the natives. When there is no shortage of land agricultural peasant types double there population less than every 20 years. Within 4 or 5 centuries they will of filled up the North American continent, a century or 2 longer than the 3 century 1600 to 1900 time frame it took for the Anglos due to less old world immigration.

 

[Makemakean]

While it may be following Empty America, I like the idea of an increasingly Christianized Norse Vinland falling into internecine struggle, leading to the creation of a separate pagan Norse state elsewhere in the New World, which by the zealotry of its followers continues to follow the old ways, and becomes an enclave of paganism.

It is true that even if Norse paganism survives in Vinland and that there is migration by European pagans, there will eventually be Christian missionaries arriving and a growing Christian community there as well. The Swedish King Eric IX once lead a crusade to convert the Finish pagans, and Pope Innocent III called for a crusade to Livonia to convert the remaining Baltic pagans. I expect that sooner or later the Norwegian Crown will initiate a Vinlandic Crusade. There most certainly will be internal strife.

As for the formation of different states, I'm not sure. When we are talking about countries founded by Viking explorers, we must note that they never really founded a state as such. Unlike the European nations, they didn't have any Monarch; they had chieftains, but it took them a long time to develop any settled, landed aristocracy. They had the proto-democratic Althing, but it didn't meet nearly as often as any modern legislative assembly. Some historians have wondered if what we refer to as the Icelandic Commonwealth shouldn't actually be classified as a limited form of anarchy.

Therefore, while I agree that there will eventually be internal strife and discontent, the formation of two separate states I doubt will take place. At least not until a couple of centuries have passed.

Would be ironic if Baltic, and later, Lithuanian pagans similarly go to the New World and successfully preserve their beliefs there, in contrast to the Christian sects of OTL. We could have some heretics leaving as well, including the Cathars... but perhaps that's too much repetition of EA. Maybe Bogomils instead?

I don't know about the Paulician derivatives though. They seem to be living too far from Scandinavia to have access to information about the New World that early (Adam of Bremen had to go to the king of Denmark to get information on Greenland for middle Europe, and this happened a century after its discovery). Of course, Greenland is Greenland, and Vinland is Vinland, and Vinland is far more habitable. Perhaps information will spread...? Waves of refuges I have been persuaded are a bit unlikely, but a couple of hundreds perhaps seems possible. Enough to ensure the survival. I'll have to see where this goes...

I believe that if contact between the Old and New World is kept and develops during the Middle Ages through Norse settlers and merchants, it's only a question of time before merchants from Germany and the British isles starts trying to join in on the cake. This may lead to the Age of Exploration beginning a century or so earlier, as there is constant and present motivation for development and funding for ship building and travels.

 

[Stephen]

The main trade goods between Greenland and Norway where walrus ivory and seal fur in return for church trappings and construction timbre, and iron goods because of the shortage of charcoal for smelting and smithing.

I think that as soon after its foundation a viable pagan Vinland settlement will probably lose contact with the old world, in a more temperate climate where there are less shortages the only strong practical motive for voyaging back across the Atlantic would be recruiting more settlers. There was allot of ship trees in Norway and and a strong maritime tradition most communities that decide they would rather be on the other side of the ocean than the Church would be capable of building their own ships. If fleeing Christianity is part of their foundation then Christian explorers and missionaries will not receive a warm welcome. So a pagan exodus scenario would lead to a quick build up of a settlers followed by the loss of contact, within a decade or two.

The Icelanders conversion seems to of been rather reluctant so in this scenario they when trade was cut off they would probably trade more with Vinland instead and migrate there in large numbers leaving Iceland almost abandoned.

 

[DaleCoz]

One factor to consider in all this: According to the book Collapse, the Viking colonies in Greenland apparently didn't eat fish. At all. Some kind of local custom or taboo. Weird if true, but also a potential POD that could make them stronger, more resilient, and more likely to exploit the big fisheries and thus have a good stepping stone to a Vinland.

 

[Stephen]

One factor to consider in all this: According to the book Collapse, the Viking colonies in Greenland apparently didn't eat fish. At all. Some kind of local custom or taboo. Weird if true, but also a potential POD that could make them stronger, more resilient, and more likely to exploit the big fisheries and thus have a good stepping stone to a Vinland.

Unlike Iceland there are no fish remains in their middens but that does not rule out fish eating. The remains could of disposed of in another way such as spreading on there gardens and fields to fertilize them, grinded into bone meal, or fed to pigs. Such activities make more sense in a more marginal environment. Isotope analysis of Greenlander skeletons suggest that maritime food made a significant proportion of their diet that increased over time from 20% in the early period to 80% by the 14th century.

http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2002/03/epn02301.pdf

 

[kasumigenx]

Unlike Iceland there are no fish remains in their middens but that does not rule out fish eating. The remains could of disposed of in another way such as spreading on there gardens and fields to fertilize them, grinded into bone meal, or fed to pigs. Such activities make more sense in a more marginal environment. Isotope analysis of Greenlander skeletons suggest that maritime food made a significant proportion of their diet that increased over time from 20% in the early period to 80% by the 14th century.

http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2002/03/epn02301.pdf

It would be interesting if the vikings contact the aztecs.

 

[Smyg]

I honestly doubt they didn't eat fish at all, considering they were Christians...

 

[Makemakean]

It would be interesting if the vikings contact the aztecs.

I like the idea, only problem is that the Aztec civilization as we think of it was first developed in the 14th and 15th century. Prior to that, the Mexica lived in different city-states, and even then we are talking about a time far after the days of Leif Ericson. Construction of Tenochtitlan first began around 1200, that is about 200 years after Leif Ericson landed in Newfoundland/Labrador/what-ever-place-which-will-henceforth-be-referred-to-as-Vinland, and for the Aztec Empire to be founded we will have to wait yet another century and some more, up till 1325. The Inca Empire will first be established in 1438, more than a century after that.

The question therefore becomes, will Vinlandic explorers reach Mesoamerica prior or post 1325 (if the Norse were more than comfortable sailing all the way to Northern Africa and Constantinople, then surely they eventually will venture further south in the New World as well), and what effects will their presence in the Americas have on the emerging Mexica and Andean societies? Will there still be Aztec and Inca Empires? Will their weaponry and social structure be radically different when other Europeans starts venturing there as well? These civilization lacked both knowledge of how to smelt iron ore and such trivialities as the wheel...

Finally, it seems both counter-intuitive and hard to back up with evidence that the Norse in Greenland didn't eat fish, despite Jared Diamond's speculations. Even some of the archeologists he quotes have dismissed this claim. Fish bones are rare to find in Greenland, but that probably has more to do with the rapid deterioration of fish bones along with a different fauna, affording the Greenlanders with a different cuisine:

"In Greenland, fish bones are rare finds, but all sites (both early and later) show a massive amount of seal and some caribou bone. Smaller sites in Greenland (like W 48) show an increasing percentage of seal bones through time, a pattern probably mirrored in the 1999 results of isotopic investigation of human bones from Greenland by teams led by Jette Arneborg of the Danish National Museum showing a steady increase in the amount of marine foods consumed in the later Middle Ages."
(http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/aneu_02/aneu_02_00212.html)

It seems clear to me that there was no taboo against eating fish, but that it was in fact a widespread practice, even if other foods were more commonly eaten. Therefore I will not give the Norse, who didn't have any problems with the practice in Scandinavia, any inhibitions about fish-eating.

 

[Stephen]

The sailing distance between Greenland and New Brunswick is about the same as the distance between New Brunswick and Jacksonville. So after Vinland has established itself with a growing population they could be mounting expeditions that reach as far as Florida. Some splinter group could create a settlement on Manhattan Island and when that settlement matures you could have voyages reaching Cuba and the Caribbean.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

It is true that even if Norse paganism survives in Vinland and that there is migration by European pagans, there will eventually be Christian missionaries arriving and a growing Christian community there as well. The Swedish King Eric IX once lead a crusade to convert the Finish pagans, and Pope Innocent III called for a crusade to Livonia to convert the remaining Baltic pagans. I expect that sooner or later the Norwegian Crown will initiate a Vinlandic Crusade. There most certainly will be internal strife.

The Finns! Perhaps they, too, shall head to the New World like their western Nordic brethren!

Therefore, while I agree that there will eventually be internal strife and discontent, the formation of two separate states I doubt will take place. At least not until a couple of centuries have passed.

That is a sensible conclusion, and I don't dispute it. (I think in EA it took many years before the Vinland/Domstolland- Christian New World Norse republic, pagan New World Norse republic- division occurred.)

Waves of refuges I have been persuaded are a bit unlikely, but a couple of hundreds perhaps seems possible. Enough to ensure the survival. I'll have to see where this goes...

I believe that if contact between the Old and New World is kept and develops during the Middle Ages through Norse settlers and merchants, it's only a question of time before merchants from Germany and the British isles starts trying to join in on the cake. This may lead to the Age of Exploration beginning a century or so earlier, as there is constant and present motivation for development and funding for ship building and travels.

What groups do you think will end up settling there, then? Hanseatic merchant types?

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

The Hanseatic League will dominate the trade with Vinland and the rest of Europe if the trade route passes through Bergen.

 

[Dan1988]

While it may be following Empty America, I like the idea of an increasingly Christianized Norse Vinland falling into internecine struggle, leading to the creation of a separate pagan Norse state elsewhere in the New World, which by the zealotry of its followers continues to follow the old ways, and becomes an enclave of paganism.

With the Portuguese around, that's probably not going to happen.

 

[Makemakean]

The Finns! Perhaps they, too, shall head to the New World like their western Nordic brethren!

I don't know about that actually, Finland's history is somewhat different to the rest of the Nordic countries, and essentially, the Finns had originally a distinctly different culture and society (the Finns do not appear to have been worshiping the Vanir or the Aesir, and there were no Finnish vikings). Unfortunately, much of Finnish history can be summed up as "Swedes and Russians are assholes."

That is a sensible conclusion, and I don't dispute it. (I think in EA it took many years before the Vinland/Domstolland- Christian New World Norse republic, pagan New World Norse republic- division occurred.)

While I like the idea of the Althing system eventually developing into an actual republican legislature (where the lawspeaker is the executive), I think it will take at least a couple of centuries for genuine democracy to develop. In the Icelandic Althing, the representatives weren't chosen by the people, but the chieftains, who themselves were appointed far more on the basis of heredity than popular opinion. Still, it was something of a representative assembly, and should, in my view definitely be considered as an important precursor of genuine democracy, like the Athenian, original democracy, or the Witenagemot. It took quite some time for the Witenagemot to develop into proper democracy, but I believe a Vinlandic Althing could develop into it faster because of two reasons: First, Vinland will probably never develop a nobility to stand in the way (although some limited form of aristocracy will be inevitable), and second, like Iceland, Vinland will probably not find it prudent to appoint a monarch over them. Without genuine nobility or monarchy, democracy could probably develop somewhat faster in Vinland than it did in Europe.

What groups do you think will end up settling there, then? Hanseatic merchant types?

I haven't really given too much thought to the types of merchants, but something similar to the Hanseatic League appears pretty much inevitable. Arguably, trade will initially be limited to the Norse, being the only ones knowing the route and being willing to deal with a predominantly pagan country. Additionally, the early trade will probably be limited to timber, fish, seal and other goods like that, which middle Europe doesn't precisely have a desperate demand for. I have to admit I'm fairly in the dark about mineral resources in northeastern Canada, but if there is iron or copper ore to be found there, then trade will probably start including that as well. Eventually English and Germans will start to travel there as well, and we will be moving away from individual merchant ships to cartels and trading guilds. Eventually once Norse explorers and merchants reaches the wealth of gold and spices in Mesoamerica, trading will explode and the other European powers will be highly motivated to develop the seafaring vessels necessary to curb Northern European monopoly on Transatlantic trade.