Keep the Sahara Green

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At least until the Kudzu vines penetrate the cracks between the blocks to reach for moisture and eventually destroy the whole structure a bit like the strangler fig in Cambodia is doing to Khmer temples.

It would take a lot of time for that to happen.

Kudzu is a wonder vine if it's cultivated and eaten by enough wildlife. It can fertilize arid climates and provide feed for fertilizing livestock. And it grows like a foot a day.

Making the Sahara green can be accomplished in this way. I don't know of any others.
 
That's a common misconception. Yes, it spreads quickly and without natural predators can overgrow in lusher climates. If it is used properly and eaten by livestock (as in Asia) it's a wonder vine.
In a desert, kudzu could become an invaluable terraformer.

And I'm told it makes some really good non-potable ethanol, way better than corn.
 
The only problem with kudzu is that it is from a region with high rainfall and acidic soils. It may be drought tolerant in the South, but drought in the South is still many times wetter than the Sahara. Plants from the same ecosystem as kudzu are not known for their tolerance of salt in the water or alkaline soils, both of which are widespread in desert areas especially if groundwater is used for irrigation. Kudzu has not been able to spread past eastern Texas, and part of the reason is that it can't handle the conditions found there.

Kudzu, as well as other plants from the same area like Japanese honeysuckle and wisteria, is so successful in the South because conditions there are almost identical to those in southern China and Japan. Where the same plants have been introduced elsewhere, like in California, they have not become a problem outside of riparian zones with a steady, year-round supply of water, and even then they are not particularly healthy.
 
Keeping the Arabs and Vandals out of Africa would help...

This would need a more robust Byzantine Empire to hold off the Vandals in Iberia and restricting the Arabs to Arabia Felix. Anything that reduces the conquests of Islam by desert goat-herders will help. I'd like a wide Red Sea that reaches the Mediterranean and makes Africa an island. Unfortunately, that would stop much early human migration except during Ice Ages that lower the sea-level and create an intermittent land bridge at Gibraltar and Suez. The POD for a Green Sahara would have to be after the end of the last Ice Age, so you can forget Abraham in Egypt - and Joseph, and Moses. Goodbye, Hyksos Kings...
 
I'd like a wide Red Sea that reaches the Mediterranean and makes Africa an island. Unfortunately, that would stop much early human migration except during Ice Ages that lower the sea-level and create an intermittent land bridge at Gibraltar and Suez. The POD for a Green Sahara would have to be after the end of the last Ice Age, so you can forget Abraham in Egypt - and Joseph, and Moses. Goodbye, Hyksos Kings...

Not necessarily. The Red Sea is a rift valley, so all you'd need would be one really good earthquake that would cause the valley floor to subside a couple of hundred feet and (maybe) widen out somewhat. Being that it has a maximum depth of 2211 m (7254 ft) in the central median trench, and an average depth of 490 m (1,608 ft), this earthquake would have to cause the shallower north part to slough down all the way to the Mediterranean Sea. This would have "interesting" side effects on the people living on either side of the Red Sea. Question is, could the plate tectonics causing such a collapse and shift also widen the sea beyond its current 220.6 miles. How wide were you thinking? :confused:
 
Pierce into the Chott El Jedir in Tunisia
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chott_el-Jérid

I know the way isn't perfect as there are elevations along the way and the place itself is 15 meters above sea level but where there's a will, there's a way. Find a particularly obstinate French president and a complacent Chambre with a huge reserve of capital and that could be perhaps done.

The Med would flood in Tunisia which would drastically alter rainfall patterns.

If not and if you're VERY obstinate, pierce into the Chott Melghir in Algeria and the Chott el-Gharsa in Tunisia. This would be justfiable to "pacifiy" the inner desert and bring crops and troups there
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Whilst it is a huge project, the idea of building a canal to import water along the south coast of the Atlas, alongside ideas like the Quattara, and flooding any lowlands in the Fezzan are all good ideas.

Quattara - makes western Egypt more valuable (and provides more rainfall)

Fezzan - makes the lands beyond Cyrenaica more valuable, and certainly helps make the lands between the Med and the Garamentes more prosperous. The idea of a seperate Fezzanian identity is intriguing. (The added rainfall, again, a bonus)

The biggest, and most valuable has to be the South Atlas Lakes Project (as I'll call it)

Linking up all the areas south of the Atlas with a canal is hugely expensive, but, the canal can help ship goods, and provide another defense against desert raiders. The refilled lakes will help with rain, which will likely lead to the Atlas having new rivers, that will keep the lakes filled with more freshwater, reducing their need to rely on the med for their water levels.

The latter is the most likely, especially in OTL Tunisia, because of the closeness of the Med. The further west you go, you have to acknowledge that fundamentally you're building a giant moat. I can see the Romans doing this, as it would defend their African interests.
 
GdwnsnHo said:
The latter is the most likely, especially in OTL Tunisia, because of the closeness of the Med. The further west you go, you have to acknowledge that fundamentally you're building a giant moat. I can see the Romans doing this, as it would defend their African interests.

Not sure the Romans would have the capability to do it fully. They could pierce through the Chott El-Fejaj easily, it's "just" 21km of a populous province, so with plenty of workforce. However, the Chott Jerid which comes after is 15 meters above sea level and would need to be pierced through to go to the el-Gharsa and the Alegrian Chotts (Melhrir and Felhrir).
http://terryking.us/photos/acst-maps/Topo-TunisieCarteRelief.jpg

The question is also why? Numidian were client kingdoms and I'm not sure it's worth the expense. Let's rather send a few legions there, right? However, maybe if the Numidians are more dangerous or if the Empire has an extended period of peace it could be done, maybe by a Senator trying to cultivate a power base in Tunisia.

Anyway, I would think it could rather be done during the Third Republic, when it was studied and the project was approached by none other than Ferdinand de Lesseps
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Not sure the Romans would have the capability to do it fully. They could pierce through the Chott El-Fejaj easily, it's "just" 21km of a populous province, so with plenty of workforce. However, the Chott Jerid which comes after is 15 meters above sea level and would need to be pierced through to go to the el-Gharsa and the Alegrian Chotts (Melhrir and Felhrir).
http://terryking.us/photos/acst-maps/Topo-TunisieCarteRelief.jpg
Admittely, it is relative terms, out of the options, 21km is the smallest length to build a canal for any of close-to-sea projects

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chott_el_Fejej

The Chott Djerid (which I understand is the same), is 10-25m BELOW sea level, at least according to wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chott_el_Djerid

I think you're right, anything further than Melhrir and Felhrir is a nightmare as it is uphill. No point, no advantage there. However, these both lie almost entirely below sea level

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chott_Melrhir

However, interestingly for all these - that first 21km dig, is the longest - and is half of the digging work. Since all these Chotts are below sea level, it goes from an open series of salt flats that could be invaded across by any rebellious tribe to nearly 250km of watery protection, logistics, and potentially arable land.

Note found this image/map, the black bits, below sea level, covers a bit more than yours did.

http://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/9.052762312555299,-27.600911774999986,44.804854280851266,30.934244475000014/background/?Name=Algeria

Ad in the prevailing wind that goes south->north, then most of the rain would fall back into the Atlas Mts themselves, which (perhaps a foolish hope) could lead to the rain filling up the Tarf, or the Hodna, which could have all sorts of side effects. I'm particularly optimistic about the impact of extra water on the eastern coast - where there are other chotts that would have been filled by reborn rivers from the old wadis.

As a side note, as much as the prevailing wind is the other direction, I wonder if there would be a significant effect in the hills near Libya - if there was enough south easterly wind, then rain could get caught here.

The question is also why? Numidian were client kingdoms and I'm not sure it's worth the expense. Let's rather send a few legions there, right? However, maybe if the Numidians are more dangerous or if the Empire has an extended period of peace it could be done, maybe by a Senator trying to cultivate a power base in Tunisia.

The Numidians weren't entirely loyal (or at all by some arguments), and they weren't the only people there. The Gaetulian tribes were never (AFAIK) subdued. Certainly under Diocletian the Numidians as well were rebellious - and the Romans could only with surety claim control upto the edge of the mountains. It is much harder to deploy a force from mountain valley to mountain valley, than along a river/canal/waterway protecting a plain. So it could reduce the costs of protecting Africa - freeing up long term resources elsewhere.

Now, if the Numidians are largely peaceful, it could be done - as you said, by a Senator wanting a power base in the area. In fact, harsh as the work would be, it could be a fantastic project for penal labour. Punishing, beneficial to Rome, cheaper than hiring people or buying slaves to do the work, and as such doesn't need to be particularly rushed. Ideally though, you wouldn't want it do be done that way.

Anyway, I would think it could rather be done during the Third Republic, when it was studied and the project was approached by none other than Ferdinand de Lesseps

Whilst I think he'd do it better, with better technology and less loss of life, and quicker - I think the earlier the better, as it preserves the Greener Africa that was supposed to be there, and has longer to take effect. We may only see the major effects of his work by the 1950s.
 
The Chott Djerid (which I understand is the same), is 10-25m BELOW sea level, at least according to wikipedia.

According to the French wiki, it's above sea level (and the Fejaj as well for that matter). However, I read it was at some point under 25m of water, the difference being that either the sea level was higher and connected to it or it simply got drier (both things we know have happened).

It was studied very seriously by Lesseps and decided against as the Djerid ended up being above sea level, despite popular belief, and initial measurements by François-Elie Roudaire :)


Whilst I think he'd do it better, with better technology and less loss of life, and quicker - I think the earlier the better, as it preserves the Greener Africa that was supposed to be there, and has longer to take effect. We may only see the major effects of his work by the 1950s.
Well apparently the Djerid is already receiving water, it's just losing it too fast to accumulate so it could fill even faster and feed into an existing aquatic system.

I honestly think we'd see faster, although limited, effects, especially if the French put efforts in the valorisation of the surrounding estate. Would be a good excuse to "clean" the Atlas of rebellious tribes.
 
GdwnsnHo said:
You're probably right, but so far all the answers have been non-ASB. Just difficult for humans.

I reckon we can keep it non-ASB no? Assuming our answers stay non-ASB. It'd be interesting to see this enterprises considered from a non-ASB perspective.

Given humans have done way worse in term of terraforming (Suez Canal, Panama Canal, the whole goddamn Amazonia forest, Great Wall of China...) piercing a 21Km canal in a civilised and sanitary region (as opposed to the mosquito infested forests of Central America) seems definitely un-ASB.
 
Not sure you can. The Earth goes through a series of Green Sahara phases, the most recent ending around 4000BC. We might in the future find a way to make the Sahara green, but I don't think it's possible to stop it from desertifying.

I believe human activity is capable of settling the climate into an equilibrium that forces the Sahara pump, at least for a while. I did try to make a thread on that a while ago, but apparently climate change is ASB
 
You're probably right, but so far all the answers have been non-ASB. Just difficult for humans.

I reckon we can keep it non-ASB no? Assuming our answers stay non-ASB. It'd be interesting to see this enterprises considered from a non-ASB perspective.

Yeah, all these answers are non-ASB so far, so I see no reason why this should be moved to the ASB section. Also, this is fascinating stuff. I might poach some of this information for my timeline.
 
Yeah, all these answers are non-ASB so far, so I see no reason why this should be moved to the ASB section. Also, this is fascinating stuff. I might poach some of this information for my timeline.

Sorry, I only read the first few answers before posting, and as many of them seemed to require ASB-level or geological events, I thought that this was no different from the Green Sahara threads in ASB. I see now that I was mistaken.:eek:
 
Does anyone know what the short term and mid term impact on local climate would be? Would we see a coastal Mediterranean like climate or something else?

I imagine there could be wheat and wine grown there, dunno what else. It would be a great way to capture the saharan trade.

If it increases the arable land, it would be a great way to get more Europeans to immigrate there while limiting arab resentment (if done by the Third Republic), it would truly be a new El Dorado
 
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