There were definitely more than two USN Phantom squadrons in 1982 because both Coral Sea and Midway had them and they were still deploying on some of the bigger decks as well in the early 1980s plus there were the USMC squadrons. The F-18 did not deploy with a carrier until late 1985 (Connie) and did not see service on Coral Sea and Midway until 1986. I think there is a general misconception that the F-18 entered operational service with the CVWs a lot earlier than it really did (the RAGs don't count, obviously they were in service with those earlier). Most CVWs did not swap out their A-7s for F-18s until 1988 or 1989.
Keep the Essex class as a strike carrier
- Thread starter SsgtC
- Start date
There were definitely more than two USN Phantom squadrons in 1982 because both Coral Sea and Midway had them and they were still deploying on some of the bigger decks as well in the early 1980s plus there were the USMC squadrons. The F-18 did not deploy with a carrier until late 1985 (Connie) and did not see service on Coral Sea and Midway until 1986. I think there is a general misconception that the F-18 entered operational service with the CVWs a lot earlier than it really did (the RAGs don't count, obviously they were in service with those earlier). Most CVWs did not swap out their A-7s for F-18s until 1988 or 1989.
Let's not forget the US production of the Phantom didn't end until 1979 so they could add in a final batch for USN service without too much effort, or just run the production line for a few extra months to build up a stockpile of factory fresh spare parts.
I understand, please don't take offense. During the post Vietnam era the personnel issues and support numbers (spare parts, delay in receiving cold weather gear, etc) were a big issue. The leadership of all branches of the military finally decided that by keeping marginal equipment in order to keep numbers up was actually hurting their cause. Maybe that is why I feel so strongly about these threads about 'Keeping the {insert favorite ship or airplane here] for another X number years' They neglect the real world issues of balancing budgets and capabilities. Keep pushing to make people justify their views. I never mind it when someone questions my views. Sometimes I can actually change my mind. Your chart is good and does represent one important part of the story.
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Riain mentioned USS Ranger's unique air wing although it may have been more than just the ship not being ready for the F-18. I didn't realize she deployed with the "Grumman Air Wing" from 1986-1993. Probably a variety of factors came into play - not enough F-18s for every carrier (JFK deployed with two A-7 squadron for DESERT STORM), the fact that the A-7s were starting to get retired, to a desire to add some additional all weather 24 hour PGM punch to a CVW.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-a-unique-grumman-air-wing-in-the-late-1980s
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-a-unique-grumman-air-wing-in-the-late-1980s
CVW-2 Carrier Air Wing Group CVG CARAIRWING US Navy
cvw-2 carrier air wing carairwing two group cvg us navy embarked squadron fighter attack vf vfa vaq vaw hsc hsm vmfa
www.seaforces.org
You keep planes in service longer and you rely more USNR and USMC squadrons to round things out, for example the Marines operated A-4s through the early 1990s but they did not deploy on carriers anymore. As I understand it, the extent to which the USN deploys USMC squadrons on the carriers tends to ebb and flow with how much difficulty they are having filling out the CVWs with USN squadrons.
SsgtC
Banned
Not very difficult at all. IOTL, the USN converted enough F-4Js to F-4S standard to equip 25 squadrons. And they will still have all their unconverted B and J models. And the J, in an air superiority or Iron Hand configuration, could easily fly from an Essex. So you're likely to see the Essex class air wings flying F-4Js until other Phantom squadrons convert onto Tomcats, at which point they'll upgrade to either N or S models. For their attack squadrons, they'll just hang on to their A-7 squadrons or possibly swap in a Marine squadron if needed
Assuming Nimitz construction proceeds as OTL, the Essexes only need to hang on until 1982, at which point three Nimitzes are active and forming the full 15-carrier fleet; FDR can retire in 1986 once Carl Vinson commissions.
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SsgtC
Banned
The only way I see the Essex class being retained is if the USN is required to maintain at least 18 CVAs into the late 70s/early 80s.
How about they reactivate two Battleships and two Essex in the 80's to work in partnership rather than all four BBs?
SsgtC
Banned
Honestly, once the Essex class are out of the fleet, they're not coming back. They cost too much to reactivate them and then build an Essex only air wing. If they're simply staying in the fleet, it's a lot more cost effective and a better argument to retain them on active duty.
SsgtC
Banned
Same. The TL I'm working on has a POD in the mid 50s and gets an extra angled deck Essex into the fleet. IOTL Lake Champlain had her SCB-125A refit cancelled (this would have brought her up to the same standard as Oriskany). In the TL I'm working on, she gets it when Independence goes up in a cloud of smoke after a fire during construction sees her written off as a total constructive loss. Plus some other changes to warrant the Navy keeping as many carriers as practical.
Riain
Banned
While the USN converted 302 of 522 F4Js into F4S how many active USN squadrons were equipped with the type and went to sea? Same with the 228 of 649 F4Bs converted to F4Ns? There might have been enough raw planes to equip 25 sqns with F4S but there wouldn't be close to that number actually converted, and USMC and USNR sqns are used more in the exception than the rule so aren't fully interchangable with USN active sqns.
My main thought was be that by about 1980 the F14 would have replaced the F4 in most sqns and CVWs, and the USN can pick and choose CVWs to go on whatever supercarrier they have around. But then they have to maintain some strange CVWs in service to keep the ~4 carriers that can't operate the F14 and even a CVW without A6s, RA5s and other cats and dogs so that when the Essex came back it's CVW couldn't be seamlessly sent to another carrier.
SsgtC
Banned
In a TL where the USN will be required to maintain a larger carrier force, and with more smaller carriers unable to operate Tomcats, it makes sense that the USN will order more F-4Js to begin with (probably between 50-100 more) and more B and J models will be upgraded to equip more squadrons then in OTL.
Riain
Banned
I think that level of foresight and budget is not in keeping with retaining an Essex, it's more in line with buying a 2nd Nimitz sooner and keeping the FDR.
In my mind keeping an Essex is a last ditch decision that has to be done with stretching existing, crappy stuff out well beyond it's regular US service life, because all the better decisions have fallen over.
Perhaps if they screw up the Nimitz design so badly that they have to do a complete redesign delaying them for several years?