Keep Poland and Lithuania strong

That and/or knock a few teeth out of Russia, putting laid on their westward intentions one way or another
 
Your best bet would be to not hobble them with an absurd constitution which made it impossible to ever do anything.

What do you mean? Constitution was- of course- completely idiotic idea, but only because of neighbors who wanted nothing else but to eat Commonwealth. Or at least keep it weak. Without them, constitution itself was pretty good, regulating many things and curbing rights of magnates.

That and/or knock a few teeth out of Russia, putting laid on their westward intentions one way or another

Stronger battering Russia during time of trouble would help, but I'm afraid, that without reforming army it'd be impossible to somehow split and weaken such big country, thus making it weak for long enough. And it doesn't solve problem of internal anarchy...
 
Have Poland-Lithania unite with Russia in the early 17th century. This will be beneficial even if it is only temporary: one enemy less, more power, and if it lasts long enough perhaps even a lasting positive influence on Russia, making it a more tolerable neighbor to have around in the long term.

And somehow limit the magnates' power asap.
 

katchen

Banned
Have the Dzungars badly batter or even conquer Russia from the East in the 17th Century when they are on their way up and pre-Peter the Great's "New Model Army". Poland-Lithuania becomes the frontline state for Europe and Christiandom against the heathen (Buddhist) Mongol horde if Russia is conquered or divided with Dzungary
 
Have the Dzungars badly batter or even conquer Russia from the East in the 17th Century when they are on their way up and pre-Peter the Great's "New Model Army". Poland-Lithuania becomes the frontline state for Europe and Christiandom against the heathen (Buddhist) Mongol horde if Russia is conquered or divided with Dzungary

It already sort of was. (Turks).
 

katchen

Banned
But the Turkish frontier was stabilized. It was Russia that ultimately destroyed Poland/Lithuania. Dzungary could have prevented that.
 
Could the rise of an early Ukrainian-Ruthenian and/or Belarussian (or something as this) identity help Poland and Lithuania? Or screw both Russia(s) and them?

Granted, I heard the Polish-lithuanian influences is a factor in the cultures of 'smaller russias'... and it's a bit like the hen before the egg... maybe.
 
What do you mean? Constitution was- of course- completely idiotic idea, but only because of neighbors who wanted nothing else but to eat Commonwealth. Or at least keep it weak. Without them, constitution itself was pretty good, regulating many things and curbing rights of magnates.

I think he meant the librum veto. That's what made Poland-Lithuania's parliament open to corruption and subversion by those neighbors who wanted to eat it.
 
While the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a tolerant state, everything was fine. After the union with Poland, the Poles began to spread Catholicism, and to show nationalist sentiment. Here it began to look towards Russia - the second after Lithuania tolerant state. So the Poles to blame but themselves.
 
Aley is right. Ultracatholic Vasas didn't help it. Poland and GDL will be much better off as union of crowns as 95% of bullshit started when Jagellon dynasty ended and the Lublin Union happened, following by Brest Union which as implemented was just a thinly veiled attempt at spreading Catholicism to GDL, driving lower classes towards Russia.
During the war of 1654-1667 Alexis Miklailovich did pretty good PR presenting himself as the savior of Orthodox population, which given the massacre of Polotsk (for example) was pretty reasonable move for him.
 
Aley is right. Ultracatholic Vasas didn't help it. Poland and GDL will be much better off as union of crowns as 95% of bullshit started when Jagellon dynasty ended and the Lublin Union happened, following by Brest Union which as implemented was just a thinly veiled attempt at spreading Catholicism to GDL, driving lower classes towards Russia.
During the war of 1654-1667 Alexis Miklailovich did pretty good PR presenting himself as the savior of Orthodox population, which given the massacre of Polotsk (for example) was pretty reasonable move for him.

Is this era the start of those catholic 'uniates' and such minorities in Ukraine (and around?)?
 
Yes. It was quite a bloody time, as "Union" was brought at swordpoint and was seen as an intermediate step to outright conversion of Orthodoxes to Catholicism.
 
Yes. It was quite a bloody time, as "Union" was brought at swordpoint and was seen as an intermediate step to outright conversion of Orthodoxes to Catholicism.

Okay.

That said, what all you said seems... dark, and I shall say, without offence to you, that it sounds possibly, hypothetically and maybe biaised pro russians, pro Orthodoxy, sources who may blackens poles and catholic legacy. Maybe.

Lot of nationalistic revisionism in the history of this part of the world, at times...
 
I'm an Orthodox Christian. What's wrong with it?
Also, I do not diminish some good stuff coming from it - like Basilian order and its educational efforts, but as a rule there was a reason that commoners and lower gentry of GDL in 1651 greeted Russian troops as liberators. Though Alexis Mikhailovich did everything to be presented as such like having a great number of Orthodox clergy accompanying their troops.
As for now, Union Church is harmless minority. Was NOT like this during reign of John II (former Cardinal) and Sigismund III (nuff' said). It sucked to be Protestant or Orthodox back then. In fact half of the shit happening during Deluge can be attributed to this - Protestant magnates of GDL asked for Swedish aid (there was even attempt to break union with Poland in favor of one with Sweden) and Ukrainians called for Russian aid.

You are from Quebec. You shall understand what means to be Catholic in Protestant country, though now when religion is not a big deal it used to be in 17th century it doesn't matter.
 
The problem was that the edition of "Golden Liberties" going back from Sigismund II August included freedom of religion in it, and the Orthodox and Protestant nobility has the right to senator dignity, for example.
Once the ultra-Catholic House of Vasa came, the rights of non-titular religions were stomped, creating potential "fifth column" in form of pissed off nobility. Slutsk branch of Radziwills were the most prominent champions of Protestant and Orthodox religion-following nobility back then, even though Boguslaw Radziwill is branded "traitor" and "bad guy" in some Polish fiction dedicated to this period (though rather three-dimensional bad guy).
 
In fact, what you might refer to was the "disproportionate retribution" acts on part of Russian government and Russian Orthodox Church once the lands of GDL were joined to Russian Empire proper.
That's when Uniates become persecuted minority every Western intellectual shall feel sad for (and rightfully so). But during the reign of John II Caziemir the situation was in reverse.
 
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