Keep New York Dutch?

How would you go about keeping New Amsterdam Dutch (and colonized by the dutch).

I'm sure a POD in the Anglo-Dutch wars would do it (though i don't really know which one).

But I am more interested in how the world would turn out.

Would we still have the US just with a Quebec type state?
 
I had made a thread long ago on how the dutch empire could have grown and expended...

Maybe an alliance with France would help...
 
Would we still have the US just with a Quebec type state?

It would split the US right in two from the beginning, so I strongly doubt it. And it wouldn't be analogous to how Quebec splits Anglophone Canada, because Quebec was already under British rule by the time the rest of the Canadian colonies developed into anything more than fishing outposts.
 

Spengler

Banned
I had made a thread long ago on how the dutch empire could have grown and expended...

Maybe an alliance with France would help...
That would be really difficult considering when it was taken was at the time that Charles II and The Sun King were best friends.
 
A victory in a war or a better negotiation result after such a war will only delay the inevitable unless New Netherlands first is much more profitable so that it wouldn't be exchanged against some sugar islands and second holds a much larger population so that it wouldn't share the fate of Nouvelle France. Crucial therefore is migration IMHO. Immigration should be high enough so that local militias can defend their colony against the English/British colonies and expand it.

I once read a timeline where the Dutch company ruling the colony gave away land for those who promised to settle it with Europeans. This led to a nobility-like development where wannabe landowners brought in tenants, mainly from Germany which could be used as a source of colonists. Higher population then attracted more settlers for the towns providing goods for the tenant villages. The company did everything to promote colonization - it got taxes and tariffs from the higher number of people.

If most of the colonists are German, I guess Germans would prefer going there rather than to the English colonies. Since the company likely wouldn't care about religion, many other ethnic and religious groups could also prefer the New Netherlands.
 
A victory in a war or a better negotiation result after such a war will only delay the inevitable unless New Netherlands first is much more profitable so that it wouldn't be exchanged against some sugar islands and second holds a much larger population so that it wouldn't share the fate of Nouvelle France. Crucial therefore is migration IMHO. Immigration should be high enough so that local militias can defend their colony against the English/British colonies and expand it.

I once read a timeline where the Dutch company ruling the colony gave away land for those who promised to settle it with Europeans. This led to a nobility-like development where wannabe landowners brought in tenants, mainly from Germany which could be used as a source of colonists. Higher population then attracted more settlers for the towns providing goods for the tenant villages. The company did everything to promote colonization - it got taxes and tariffs from the higher number of people.

If most of the colonists are German, I guess Germans would prefer going there rather than to the English colonies. Since the company likely wouldn't care about religion, many other ethnic and religious groups could also prefer the New Netherlands.

That timeline would be OTL, the Patroon system that wasn't such a smashing success. The Best POD imho would be a delay in the start of the first Anglo-Dutch war. Then the New Netherland reforms that had just passed the State General would've removed the WIC from power and part of the reforms were incentives to immigration for the colony as well.
 
That timeline would be OTL, the Patroon system that wasn't such a smashing success.

Thanks for pointing that out!

I read a bit about it in Wikipedia and in fact this isn't what I would expect to e a large success anyway. Why should anybody emmigrate to America to get the same situation as in old Europe? What if the patroon system would be changed in that the patroon is merely the owner of large lands and gets rents from the villagers?
 
Thanks for pointing that out!

I read a bit about it in Wikipedia and in fact this isn't what I would expect to e a large success anyway. Why should anybody emmigrate to America to get the same situation as in old Europe? What if the patroon system would be changed in that the patroon is merely the owner of large lands and gets rents from the villagers?

I believe that is sort of how it worked, since the most successfull Patroonship of them all (Rensselaerswijck) was not abolished untill 1839 with the death of the last Patroon. What worked against the system was the massive cost of purchasing the land, and then according to the contract the Patroon had to settle 50 families (thus Husband, Wife and potential children) in 4 years or else the ground defaulted back to the WIC and the investment was lost. However if the buyer was succesfull then he had is own bit of Feudal land in the new world.
 
I believe that is sort of how it worked, since the most successfull Patroonship of them all (Rensselaerswijck) was not abolished untill 1839 with the death of the last Patroon.

Wikipedia tells about additional privileges: the patroon nominated official offices including judges, and the villagers he brought in as well as their descendantes needed his allowances to leave the estates. They were bound peasants as in Europe, not merely renters of land.

What worked against the system was the massive cost of purchasing the land, and then according to the contract the Patroon had to settle 50 families (thus Husband, Wife and potential children) in 4 years or else the ground defaulted back to the WIC and the investment was lost. However if the buyer was succesfull then he had is own bit of Feudal land in the new world.

So what about making the estates a lot smaller (to hold 1 up to three villages), to deny the patroons any true feudal privileges besides rents, to increase the time by which the land has to be settled to, say, 20 years, and to decrease the price the patroon has to pay? Or at least to offer additionaly to the large patroonships these smaller, less feudal packages?
 
Wikipedia tells about additional privileges: the patroon nominated official offices including judges, and the villagers he brought in as well as their descendantes needed his allowances to leave the estates. They were bound peasants as in Europe, not merely renters of land.



So what about making the estates a lot smaller (to hold 1 up to three villages), to deny the patroons any true feudal privileges besides rents, to increase the time by which the land has to be settled to, say, 20 years, and to decrease the price the patroon has to pay? Or at least to offer additionaly to the large patroonships these smaller, less feudal packages?

maybe that'll work.

though i think if the first Anglo-Dutch war is delayed by a year (easily achieved since both powers were still building up, and it was a chance meeting of fleets that triggered the war) then the New Netherland reforms might be successfull.

most important are:
Power is removed from the WIC and placed into the hands of New Amsterdams board of nine (sort of city council).
All ships leaving for North America are forbidden from refusing Immigrants to New Netherland.
A fund is established (of 15000 Guilders) to help those to poor to pay for the crossing

these were all OTL but prevented from happening by the outbreak of war.
 
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