Keep Britain Great

I read Mustard's thread on a British superpower in the wake of the 2nd WW. I thought a bit and taking a PoD of the end of the Boer War, came up with this very rough sketch of a timeline.

1901: The British government recognises the critical future importance of the Dominions contribution in maintaining British power. Thus they begin to cash in their investments in the US and rather than spending them on high explosives to throw at Germany, they invest them on developing the Dominions' and India's industrial base along with modernising British industry.

1911: The third Irish home rule act is introduced a few years early and thus not scuppered by the 1st WW. After some rather tense teething problems, an Irish civil war is avoided and home goes relatively smoothly despite some very loud grumblings from nationalists and loyalists.

1915: Rather than trying to run a full scale continental land and naval war, Britain scales back it's contribution to France and concentrates on Gallipoli and the Balkans. A bit better management opens the straights and keeps Bulgaria out of the war.

1916: Due to greater Entente support the Brusilov offensive is a greater success and the Romanian oilfields stay out of Central Powers hands.

1917: Despite some very serious speed wobbles Russia stays in the war and while the US stays out (lack of diesel prevents USW), their cash (in the form of unsecured loans) comes in. The war comes to a close with a negotiated CP defeat at the end of the year.

1919: The policy of Indianisation introduced in the wake of the war is more extensive and effective than in the OTL. The prewar policy of industrialising the Empire is continued and expanded.

1922: The success of Irish home rule has lead to calls for similar in Scotland. In a revolutionary move power in the UK is devolved to to the three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland; sorry Wales misses out yet) and the Westminster parliament is changed into a body governing matters that affect the entire country, along with directing the Empire.

1930: Rather than the Statute of Westminster setting the Dominions on the path to independence, it transforms the Westminster parliament into a full Imperial parliament by extending representation to the Dominions. (Wales gets it's own devolved government about here).

1934: India is granted a form of home rule (possibly patterned on Irish home rule). Eventually this is extended to a full Dominion status with representation at Westminster in the wake of the (highly butterflied) 2nd WW.

Thus is created an industialised Imperial Federation. Comments, suggestions, rotten fruit and vegetables are welcome.
 
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Well, this isn't what a DBWI is. DBWI stands for double-blind what if, meaning you take the perspective of an ATL asking what if something that happened in OTL did happen, as opposed to the questioner, who lives in a reality where it didn't. So, for Churchill, you could have a DBWI asking what if he'd survived being hit by a taxi driver in New York in 1931 (happened, and he did, of course), and talk about how things have developed in the world where he died. This is simply a timeline.
 
Well, this isn't what a DBWI is. DBWI stands for double-blind what if, meaning you take the perspective of an ATL asking what if something that happened in OTL did happen, as opposed to the questioner, who lives in a reality where it didn't. So, for Churchill, you could have a DBWI asking what if he'd survived being hit by a taxi driver in New York in 1931 (happened, and he did, of course), and talk about how things have developed in the world where he died. This is simply a timeline.

My apologies, I'll try to fix tgat
 
Well, this isn't what a DBWI is. DBWI stands for double-blind what if, meaning you take the perspective of an ATL asking what if something that happened in OTL did happen, as opposed to the questioner, who lives in a reality where it didn't. So, for Churchill, you could have a DBWI asking what if he'd survived being hit by a taxi driver in New York in 1931 (happened, and he did, of course), and talk about how things have developed in the world where he died. This is simply a timeline.

Fixed
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Where's the DBWI?
1911: The third Irish home rule act is introduced a few years early and thus not scuppered by the 1st WW. After some rather tense teething problems, an Irish civil war is avoided and home goes relatively smoothly despite some very loud grumblings from nationalists and loyalists.

1922: The success of Irish home rule has lead to calls for similar in Scotland. In a revolutionary move power in the UK is devolved to to the three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland; sorry Wales misses out yet) and the Westminster parliament is changed into a body governing matters that affect the entire country, along with directing the Empire.
Why do people keep forgetting Government of Scotland Bill 1913? If Ireland gets Home Rule early, then the Government of Scotland Bill will also be pushed through a bit earlier. WW1 scuppering it is on the table, for sure, but if the war is over in 1917, then a Liberal administration could potentially muscle it through. Actually, who is in charge of the UK in 1922 in this TL? Because I can tell you that the Conservatives sure as shit aren't going to push it through, and if a grand coalition has been formed with the Liberals, then it's going to also be on the chopping block during negotiations.

And, as I'm no expert on the First World War (so do forgive me if I'm missing something), but wouldn't Britain scaling back in Western Europe only severally weaken the French to the point Germany would make a worthwhile breakthrough?

What of the Liberal Party? What of the Conservatives and the Unionists? What of Labour?
 
Where's the DBWI?

Why do people keep forgetting Government of Scotland Bill 1913? If Ireland gets Home Rule early, then the Government of Scotland Bill will also be pushed through a bit earlier. WW1 scuppering it is on the table, for sure, but if the war is over in 1917, then a Liberal administration could potentially muscle it through. Actually, who is in charge of the UK in 1922 in this TL? Because I can tell you that the Conservatives sure as shit aren't going to push it through.

And, as I'm no expert on the first world war so do forgive me, wouldn't Britain scaling back in Western Europe only severally weaken the French to the point Germany would make a worthwhile breakthrough?

What of the Liberal Party? What of the Conservatives and the Unionists? What of Labour?

Yeap screwed up on the DBWI (it's 5am and my brain is in low gear). But I didn't know about the Scotland act, will scuttle off to Google
 
Where's the DBWI?

Why do people keep forgetting Government of Scotland Bill 1913? If Ireland gets Home Rule early, then the Government of Scotland Bill will also be pushed through a bit earlier. WW1 scuppering it is on the table, for sure, but if the war is over in 1917, then a Liberal administration could potentially muscle it through. Actually, who is in charge of the UK in 1922 in this TL? Because I can tell you that the Conservatives sure as shit aren't going to push it through, and if a grand coalition has been formed with the Liberals, then it's going to also be on the chopping block during negotiations.

Okay some very quick research on the 1913 Scotland bill. So if I've brought forward Irish home rule, I'll bring this bill forward in response to success in Ireland. So 1913 Scotland gets home rule too (except the post office for some odd reason). This leaves Westminster governing England and affairs affecting the whole UK. Thus full devolution comes with a separate English parliament (Manchester? York? Oxford even?) Maybe in 1919 in the wake of the war. Or perhaps in 1930 when representation is extended to the Dominions?

And, as I'm no expert on the First World War (so do forgive me if I'm missing something), but wouldn't Britain scaling back in Western Europe only severally weaken the French to the point Germany would make a worthwhile breakthrough?

I've left 1914 unchanged so the race to the sea and trench warfare are in place. France can survive 1915 with a lesser British presence. Some fudging maybe required for them to survive 1916-17 still I will admit.
 
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shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Okay some very quick research on the 1913 Scotland bill. So if I've brought forward Irish home rule, I'll bring this bill forward in response to success in Ireland. So 1913 Scotland gets home rule too. This leaves Westminster governing England and affairs affecting the whole UK. Thus full devolution comes with a separate English parliament (Manchester? York? Oxford even?) Maybe in 1919 in the wake of the war. Or perhaps in 1930 when representation is extended to the Dominions?
I'll have to dig it up on Hansard, but I do believe that whenever England was bought up for an assembly, the consensus was 'provincial devolution'.
 
I'll have to dig it up on Hansard, but I do believe that whenever England was bought up for an assembly, the consensus was 'provincial devolution'.

I found it, essentially gave Scotland the same powers as Ireland, except they didn't get the post office. And yes I think leaving a separate English assembly would wait for the extension of representation to the Dominions. Don't want those aussies deciding what colour to paint English roadmaps.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
And yes I think leaving a separate English assembly would wait for the extension of representation to the Dominions. Don't want those aussies deciding what colour to paint English roadmaps.
Huh? I'm saying that whenever the issue was brought up, the consensus was to break up the hypothetical assembly along its provincial lines, so you get a northern Assembly, Yorkshire Assembly, Cornish Assembly, that kind of thing.
 
Huh? I'm saying that whenever the issue was brought up, the consensus was to break up the hypothetical assembly along its provincial lines, so you get a northern Assembly, Yorkshire Assembly, Cornish Assembly, that kind of thing.

Ahhh I understand. So you have full devolution before the war. Even better.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Ahhh I understand. So you have full devolution before the war. Even better.
Well... no, if Ireland and Scotland get devolution before the war, you'd need to either have the Liberals hang around long enough to go in that direction (and given how Home Rule tore the party apart), or the Conservatives decide to do it themselves "and do it right", which isn't a mental option and one they pursue social reform on. Labour would likely favour it in such a scenario. But I can't see this being done until the late twenties/early thirties.
 
I thought that this was good.

There is a huge wildcard if, with different diplomacy, the UK prevents the outbreak of World War I or at least keeps it localized to Eastern Europe. I think that is possible and its hard to see how that doesn't put them in a better position. There are arguments that they would have benefited even with World War I occurring but their not entering, or not following the strategy of building up a big army on the continent (historically the British have avoided doing something like this, including in World War II) as you postulated, or even a switch of alliances so they are on the German side. Make some changes in 1895-05 and you can get the alliance switch, same if the war is delayed until after 1915 and the British decide that Russia is the bigger threat.
 
I agree with not having to go hat in hand to the US is key.

Finding a way to maintain their industrial sector better than IOTL is important, and would probably require an earlier turn towards protection. It should be noted that there seems to be something of an iron rule with empires to run down whatever sustains their economy at the center. Spain did it, the US did it, even Rome did it with Italy.

Making the empire more of a federation is also good, though less important, and there was interest in doing that and moves in that direction, just too little and too late.
 
This leaves Westminster governing England and affairs affecting the whole UK. Thus full devolution comes with a separate English parliament (Manchester? York? Oxford even?)
Possibly Winchester, it was, after all, the English capital once. An even better solution might be to break England up into to the heptarchial kingdoms (Northumbria, East Anglia, Essex, Sussex, Wessex, Mercia and Kent) and elevate Greater London to the same status or merge it with Kent.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Possibly Winchester, it was, after all, the English capital once. An even better solution might be to break England up into to the heptarchial kingdoms (Northumbria, East Anglia, Essex, Sussex, Wessex, Mercia and Kent) and elevate Greater London to the same status or merge it with Kent.
Winchester is a hilly mess (which I write living down the road from it). But an interesting alternative that no one explores is the Canberra option- I.E. build a city in the middle of England designed to house the Government.

I do agree strongly though with the latter half of this post, of course.
 
Revised draft timeline

1901: The British government recognises the critical future importance of the Dominions contribution in maintaining British power. Thus they begin to cash in their investments in the US and rather than spending them on high explosives to throw at Germany, they invest them on developing the Dominions' and India's industrial base along with modernising British industry.

1911: The Irish Home Rule Act is introduced a few years early and thus not scuppered by the 1st WW. After some rather tense teething problems, an Irish civil war is avoided and home goes relatively smoothly despite some very loud grumblings from nationalists and loyalists.

1912: After the success of Irish home rule agitation for Scottish home rule becomes equally as intense. The Liberals lose a vote of no confidence after attempts to introduce a Scottish home rule bill. However they remain in power after the election with support of Irish and Scottish nationalists. With a mandate from the electorate, Scotland gains nearly identical devolved powers to Ireland in 1913. Calls for further provincial devolution becomes the foremost issue in British politics.

1914: The 1st WW erupts, the BEF is dispatched to France and the conflict moves to trench warfare as in the OTL.

1915: Rather than trying to run both a full scale continental land and naval war, Britain scales back it's contribution to France and concentrates on Gallipoli and the Balkans. A bit better management opens the straights and keeps Bulgaria out of the war.

1916: Due to greater Entente support the Brusilov offensive is a considerably more successful and the Romanian oilfields stay out of Central Powers hands.

1917: Despite some very serious speed wobbles Russia stays in the war and while the US stays out (lack of diesel prevents USW), their cash (in the form of unsecured loans) comes in. The war comes to a close with a negotiated CP defeat at the end of the year.

1918: The policy of Indianisation introduced in the wake of the war is more extensive and effective than in the OTL. The prewar policy of industrialising the Empire is continued and expanded.

1919: In response to the to US and Japanese naval building the UK launches a new naval program focused on fast battleships and naval aviation. Five dubious battle cruisers (Furious, Courageous, Glorious, Renown and Repulse) are converted to fast fleet carriers along with several purpose built ships over the next ten years. US congress slackens off building due to cost and the Japanese are unable to maintain their building. Thus British naval supremacy is restored. HMAS Australia and HMS New Zealand are also saved from the scrap yard to become light carriers for service in the Pacific.

1921: The liberal lead minority government falls over the issue of devolution. The new Tory government rejects any further devolution.

1924: The Tory government attempts to begin a roll back of devolution by removing the Irish government's power over the post office (placing Irish home rule on the same level as Scottish). The government falls and a Labour lead coalition government comes to power.

1925: The Devolution of Government Act is passed without Irish nationalist support. The UK is divided into seven "national" assemblies. Ireland, Ulster (the supposed temporary partition after Irish home rule becoming permanent), Scotland, Wales, Northumbria (from the Mersey to the Scottish border), Cornwall and England. The Westminster Parliament retains control of London, the post office (national communications), matters affecting the whole UK, defence, foreign and Imperial affairs.

1930: Rather than the Statute of Westminster setting the Dominions on the path to independence, it transforms the Westminster Parliament into a full Imperial Parliament by extending representation to the Dominions. The Dominions militaries are incorporated into the Royal Navy and a unified Imperial Army.

1932: India is given a form of home rule as a federation, but is not granted Dominion status.

~1933: The inconclusive 1st WW has done little to resolve tensions in Europe and the continent begins to move towards another in the wake of the Great Depression.

1935: The British Empire begins a large scale rearmament program in response to increased tension in Europe. The RFC is split off from the army to become the RAF. The RNAS remains under naval control but the Admiralty and War Office are unified into a single Ministry of Defence.

1938: With a new European war seeming imminent and the resultant need to secure the Empire, Dominion status is extended to India. However India is underrepresented in the Imperial Parliament to retain white domination. Pressure is brought on the Princely States to join the Indian Federation.

~1940: A highly butterflied 2nd WW breaks out.

~1945: After victory in the war, the issue of the racist underrepresentation of India in the Imperial Parliament has come to the fore. A series Imperial Government Acts slowly increase Indian representation. India eventually receives full representation in 1960 and a "nativisation" program similar to that of India for other colonies is gradually introduced.

~1990: The Empire has evolved into a multicultural global superpower.
 
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1915: Rather than trying to run both a full scale continental land and naval war, Britain scales back it's contribution to France and concentrates on Gallipoli and the Balkans. A bit better management opens the straights and keeps Bulgaria out of the war.

1916: Due to greater Entente support the Brusilov offensive is a considerably more successful and the Romanian oilfields stay out of Central Powers hands.

The Germans took quite a hiding on the Somme in 1916, I don't know if scaling this back in favour of peripheral campaigns is better. Personally I think it isn't but couldn't say for sure.
 
Revised draft timeline

1901: The British government recognises the critical future importance of the Dominions contribution in maintaining British power. Thus they begin to cash in their investments in the US and rather than spending them on high explosives to throw at Germany, they invest them on developing the Dominions' and India's industrial base along with modernising British industry.

1911: The Irish Home Rule Act is introduced a few years early and thus not scuppered by the 1st WW. After some rather tense teething problems, an Irish civil war is avoided and home goes relatively smoothly despite some very loud grumblings from nationalists and loyalists.

1912: After the success of Irish home rule agitation for Scottish home rule becomes equally as intense. The Liberals lose a vote of no confidence after attempts to introduce a Scottish home rule bill. However they remain in power after the election with support of Irish and Scottish nationalists. With a mandate from the electorate, Scotland gains nearly identical devolved powers to Ireland in 1913. Calls for further provincial devolution becomes the foremost issue in British politics.

1914: The 1st WW erupts, the BEF is dispatched to France and the conflict moves to trench warfare as in the OTL.

1915: Rather than trying to run both a full scale continental land and naval war, Britain scales back it's contribution to France and concentrates on Gallipoli and the Balkans. A bit better management opens the straights and keeps Bulgaria out of the war.

1916: Due to greater Entente support the Brusilov offensive is a considerably more successful and the Romanian oilfields stay out of Central Powers hands.

1917: Despite some very serious speed wobbles Russia stays in the war and while the US stays out (lack of diesel prevents USW), their cash (in the form of unsecured loans) comes in. The war comes to a close with a negotiated CP defeat at the end of the year.

1918: The policy of Indianisation introduced in the wake of the war is more extensive and effective than in the OTL. The prewar policy of industrialising the Empire is continued and expanded.

1919: In response to the to US and Japanese naval building the UK launches a new naval program focused on fast battleships and naval aviation. Five dubious battle cruisers (Furious, Courageous, Glorious, Renown and Repulse) are converted to fast fleet carriers along with several purpose built ships over the next ten years. US congress slackens off building due to cost and the Japanese are unable to maintain their building. Thus British naval supremacy is restored. HMAS Australia and HMS New Zealand are also saved from the scrap yard to become light carriers for service in the Pacific.

1921: The liberal lead minority government falls over the issue of devolution. The new Tory government rejects any further devolution.

1924: The Tory government attempts to begin a roll back of devolution by removing the Irish government's power over the post office (placing Irish home rule on the same level as Scottish). The government falls and a Labour lead coalition government comes to power.

1925: The Devolution of Government Act is passed without Irish nationalist support. The UK is divided into seven "national" assemblies. Ireland, Ulster (the supposed temporary partition after Irish home rule becoming permanent), Scotland, Wales, Northumbria (from the Mersey to the Scottish border), Cornwall and England. The Westminster Parliament retains control of London, the post office (national communications), matters affecting the whole UK, defence, foreign and Imperial affairs.

1930: Rather than the Statute of Westminster setting the Dominions on the path to independence, it transforms the Westminster Parliament into a full Imperial Parliament by extending representation to the Dominions. The Dominions militaries are incorporated into the Royal Navy and a unified Imperial Army.

1932: India is given a form of home rule as a federation, but is not granted Dominion status.

~1933: The inconclusive 1st WW has done little to resolve tensions in Europe and the continent begins to move towards another in the wake of the Great Depression.

1935: The British Empire begins a large scale rearmament program in response to increased tension in Europe. The RFC is split off from the army to become the RAF. The RNAS remains under naval control but the Admiralty and War Office are unified into a single Ministry of Defence.

1938: With a new European war seeming imminent and the resultant need to secure the Empire, Dominion status is extended to India. However India is underrepresented in the Imperial Parliament to retain white domination. Pressure is brought on the Princely States to join the Indian Federation.

~1940: A highly butterflied 2nd WW breaks out.

~1945: After victory in the war, the issue of the racist underrepresentation of India in the Imperial Parliament has come to the fore. A series Imperial Government Acts slowly increase Indian representation. India eventually receives full representation in 1960 and a "nativisation" program similar to that of India for other colonies is gradually introduced.

~1990: The Empire has evolved into a multicultural global superpower.

I don't think the issue of non-White dominions being underrepresented in the Imperial Parliment would be resolved so quickly.
It is likely that it would continue with perhaps several ineffectual attempts at reform until the late 50s at the very earliest. By this time it will have become clear to the powers in Westminster that the Imperial Federation's (United Empire?) power in large part relies. on the resources and manpower of the nonwhite dominions such India and Malaya.
Faced with the prospect of extending political equality, or losing their global position they are more likely to then reform the institution. However I think they will initially only do this with the lower house, a upper house weighted in favour of Britain and the white dominions will likely continue until late in the century.

By 1990 I think you might find a set of Dominions like this;
United Kingdom
Ireland
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
India
Burma
Malaysia
West Indies Federation
Central African Federation (Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi)
West African Federation (Sierra Leone, Gambia, Ghana, Togo)
East African Federation (Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda)
South Africa (inc. Namibia and Botswana)
Nigeria

And maybe a set of smaller Dominion like states that also have representation;
Malta
Gibraltar
Falkland Islands
Hong Kong

Inevitably India would be the big beast here, but the various African Dominions would be a significant counterbalance, and the white dominions would retain massive economic power until the late 20th century.

I think such a state might have been possible to construct, but it would have not have been easy by any definition, and there would be points mid century where it would have looked certain to fly apart. By the 90s to remain intact, it would had to have enact equal franchise to all dominion one, and in doing so would definitely no longer be the British Empire. Rather it would probably call itself a successor state to that institution, perhaps something like 'The United Commonwealth'.
 
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