All Rounder
Gone Fishin'
The title says it all. Except find a way for Baden-Wurttemberg to be it's current size and separate from Germany.
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Keep Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg separate from Germany to present
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Baden-WÜrttemberg in its curre curre curre curre post-WW2 creation. Secession from Germany AND unification seem impossible.
In 1915 Action française proposed among others things that Bavaria and Württemberg should become independent with most of the so called "Neutral Zone" being the territory of Baden in the south.
Have the division of Germany go ahead at least in the west of the former Reich (atl) at whatever is the new Treaty of Versailles.
Eventually the Neutral Zone could become a single unified state or divided into such regions like Baden.
Though not strictly within the above quiz, I believe this would be the easiest way to have such if certain conditions are met beforehand.
Have the division of Germany go ahead at least in the west of the former Reich (atl) at whatever is the new Treaty of Versailles.
Eventually the Neutral Zone could become a single unified state or divided into such regions like Baden.
Though not strictly within the above quiz, I believe this would be the easiest way to have such if certain conditions are met beforehand.
You can separate them after WWI and II, but it would an artificial separations which had to be enforced by force for many generations.
Baden-Wurttemberg is a creation of the German federal government and never existed in that form as an independent entity. The antecedent independent statelets could have survived.
You get the southern German states lasting longer though several routes, a Prussian defeat in either 1866 or 1870, either of these wars don't happen, no World War I but a leftist revolution in Prussia, a much more serious defeat for Germany in World War I, a situation where the Red Army reaches the Rhine in World War I and the Anglo-Americans only get control of southern Germany, or a decision by the Big Four to break up Germany after World War II. Churchill did have the idea of an Austro-Bavarian state.
You get the southern German states lasting longer though several routes, a Prussian defeat in either 1866 or 1870, either of these wars don't happen, no World War I but a leftist revolution in Prussia, a much more serious defeat for Germany in World War I, a situation where the Red Army reaches the Rhine in World War I and the Anglo-Americans only get control of southern Germany, or a decision by the Big Four to break up Germany after World War II. Churchill did have the idea of an Austro-Bavarian state.
Well, the easiest way is a French victory or stalemate in 1870.
Having Baden and Wurttemberg unify in this scenario may be trickier but is probably doable. Have Wurttemberg join some anti Prussian (North Germany would be essentially Prussia here) alliance that wins a subsequent war in which Baden is on the other side - post war, Wurtt. gets both Baden and Prussian Hohenzollern. That gets you pretty much the borders of the modern Land of B-W.
Having Baden and Wurttemberg unify in this scenario may be trickier but is probably doable. Have Wurttemberg join some anti Prussian (North Germany would be essentially Prussia here) alliance that wins a subsequent war in which Baden is on the other side - post war, Wurtt. gets both Baden and Prussian Hohenzollern. That gets you pretty much the borders of the modern Land of B-W.
An independent Bavaria is, of course, much easier. Could have been easily obtained even 1945-1949.
The difficult thing is to get B-W independent AND have the current shape. It´s such a young and heterogenous entity, an entirely ahistorical one.
The difficult thing is to get B-W independent AND have the current shape. It´s such a young and heterogenous entity, an entirely ahistorical one.
Pretty much. For the POD, Anywhere you like
Then it is very easy. The easiest would to avoid them becoming part of the new German empire during the unification. Maybe they would become part of Austria-Hungary? After WW1 would also be an interesting candidate. After WW2 would probably be a bit more tricky. The Soviet Union would definitely like to see them as part of a neutral Austria, but the USA and its allies would want them to be part of West-Germany. But they might of course become separate states, as part of NATO.
nbcman
Donor
If the occupation zones are redrawn post WW2, the US could cover all of Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg while the French could be given additional territory north of Bavaria in central West Germany from the OTL US occupation zone to compensate (plus to give them a border with East Germany to forestall their future withdrawal from NATO). The French & British occupied sectors are joined to make West Germany but the US occupied sector could remain independent. Not a likely scenario but one that could happen.
Actually, if Bavaria became independent (or possibly joined Austria) after WW2, maybe Bavarian Swabia would remain in Germany and become part of a new state with the territory of Baden-Wurttemberg. Franconia would probably also leave Bavaria and become a state within West-Germany.
Not sure if I get your point here. Weren´t the occupation zones quite different from the states that were formed later within West-Germany?
The boders of the Kdm of Württemberg and of the Grand Duchy of Baden were essentially fixed by 1806.
The borders did not change significantly until 1945, when both states were bisected by the demarcation line of the occupation zones. North of it, the US created the State of Württemberg-Baden, south of it, France created the two states of Baden and Württemberg-Hohenzollern.
The three states fusioned after a plebiscite in December 1951. (Red for fusion, blue against, ie for reconstitution of the old states)
The borders did not change significantly until 1945, when both states were bisected by the demarcation line of the occupation zones. North of it, the US created the State of Württemberg-Baden, south of it, France created the two states of Baden and Württemberg-Hohenzollern.
The three states fusioned after a plebiscite in December 1951. (Red for fusion, blue against, ie for reconstitution of the old states)
nbcman
Donor
They were:
I am proposing that the southern parts of the French Zone to be exchanged with the northern parts of the American zone.
The French were very wary to have their OccZone join with the "Bizone" (US + UK). So this would be more plausible if B, W and B were for some reason made the French OccZone and the British and American zones were farther north. But that again is unlikely for different reasons.
I cannot agree:
NRW, Lower Saxony, Hamburg and S-H were fully in the UK OccZone, Rheinland-Pfalz and Saarland fully in the French zone, Bavaria, Bremen and Hesse fully in the American zone. Current BW is actually the only West German Land that straddlees a former OccZone border.
That is rather natural, since the Länder were created by the occupation authorities and redate the Federal Republic by years.
Redbeard
Banned
In Autumn 1813 when Bavaria defected Napoleon it appears like the Bavarian intention was to create a Bavarian dominated south Germany (i.e. Baden and Würtemberg). Eventually that failed because Prussia soon became the dominant German state, not at least by playing a more prominent and succesful role on the battlefield in the late Napoleonic wars.
But, and here comes the PoD, had the Bavarian-Austrian army led by Bavarian Fürst Wrede been more succesful at Hanau in late October 1813 in stopping the French retreat from Leipzig I think Bavaria would have played a much larger role in 19th century Germany, and Prussia a ditto less.
In OTL Wrede's army was brushed aside by the Imperial Guard, but from my studies of te battle I think it could very well have ended very differently - and ending the Napoleonic wars! Wrede's army counted about 50.000 (incl. the Division that OTL was left at Frankfurt) well trained and well equipped men, incl. a lot of cavalry and artillery. Wrede's intelligence told him however, that the French army retreating from Leipzig was in disarray and really just a flow of straglers. He deployed accordingly with his back against the river Kinzig and was quite unprepared for the sudden onslaught of the Old Guard. With better intelligence he would have had the opportunity to take up much better defensive positions, my favourite being Schlüchtern a little to the east on the road from Leipzig. But anyway Wrede had 134 cannons at his disposal and before such a huge Grand Battery even Old Guardsmen will bleed just as fast as recruits, perhaps even faster as they don't flee. In OTL a small Grand battery was assembled in front of Hanau, but it had expanded most of its ammo before the Old Guard attacked and most of the allied trains had been lost on the way from Worms!
In OTL Napoleon made a battlefield recon just before deploying the Guard, and was well inside rifle range of the numerus Bavarian and Austrian riflemen. Imagine Napoleon dropping with a red spot on his forehead just before issuing orders!
It is much more difficult to tell the size of the French army at the battle, but probably not more than 20.000 were under command during the battle, half of them from the Imperial Guard.
Had the French been stopped and Napoleon killed of taken prisonner Bavaria and Wrede would have been hailed as "The man who shot Liberty Wallace!" and the 19th century in Germany will take a very different path. Not by Bavaria making a sort of Bavarian 2nd Reich, but by diminishing the role of Prussia. The legitemacy of Prussia will be much smaller and Prussia will probably end up with far less "rewards" after the war. Of course it can not be excluded that Prussia later wins a German war and unite Germany, but the likelyhood is remote compared to OTL.
All in all that gives a fair chance for an independent Baden-Würtemberg and Bavaria in 2016...
...at least as independent as any EU member state
But, and here comes the PoD, had the Bavarian-Austrian army led by Bavarian Fürst Wrede been more succesful at Hanau in late October 1813 in stopping the French retreat from Leipzig I think Bavaria would have played a much larger role in 19th century Germany, and Prussia a ditto less.
In OTL Wrede's army was brushed aside by the Imperial Guard, but from my studies of te battle I think it could very well have ended very differently - and ending the Napoleonic wars! Wrede's army counted about 50.000 (incl. the Division that OTL was left at Frankfurt) well trained and well equipped men, incl. a lot of cavalry and artillery. Wrede's intelligence told him however, that the French army retreating from Leipzig was in disarray and really just a flow of straglers. He deployed accordingly with his back against the river Kinzig and was quite unprepared for the sudden onslaught of the Old Guard. With better intelligence he would have had the opportunity to take up much better defensive positions, my favourite being Schlüchtern a little to the east on the road from Leipzig. But anyway Wrede had 134 cannons at his disposal and before such a huge Grand Battery even Old Guardsmen will bleed just as fast as recruits, perhaps even faster as they don't flee. In OTL a small Grand battery was assembled in front of Hanau, but it had expanded most of its ammo before the Old Guard attacked and most of the allied trains had been lost on the way from Worms!
In OTL Napoleon made a battlefield recon just before deploying the Guard, and was well inside rifle range of the numerus Bavarian and Austrian riflemen. Imagine Napoleon dropping with a red spot on his forehead just before issuing orders!
It is much more difficult to tell the size of the French army at the battle, but probably not more than 20.000 were under command during the battle, half of them from the Imperial Guard.
Had the French been stopped and Napoleon killed of taken prisonner Bavaria and Wrede would have been hailed as "The man who shot Liberty Wallace!" and the 19th century in Germany will take a very different path. Not by Bavaria making a sort of Bavarian 2nd Reich, but by diminishing the role of Prussia. The legitemacy of Prussia will be much smaller and Prussia will probably end up with far less "rewards" after the war. Of course it can not be excluded that Prussia later wins a German war and unite Germany, but the likelyhood is remote compared to OTL.
All in all that gives a fair chance for an independent Baden-Würtemberg and Bavaria in 2016...
...at least as independent as any EU member state