Kasespatzle unt Schwartzwald Kuchen

Very interested in this continuing. I feel the Germans will come to regret aquiring all those angry French people.
Based on the last post, it looks like Hindenburg, Ludendorff and friends are counting on unrest to lead to another war later, this time a war of extermination.
 
In this scenario, I really don't think Ludendorff, Hindenburg, or others are attracted to a Lebensraum future with a variation of the OTL Generalplan Ost. Sure they want some expansion of Germany on the continent, an economic scheme that puts Germany in the driver's seat, and some expansion of the overseas empire but depopulating areas to replace them with good German farmers...not a thing in 1918.
 
In this scenario, I really don't think Ludendorff, Hindenburg, or others are attracted to a Lebensraum future with a variation of the OTL Generalplan Ost. Sure they want some expansion of Germany on the continent, an economic scheme that puts Germany in the driver's seat, and some expansion of the overseas empire but depopulating areas to replace them with good German farmers...not a thing in 1918.
In the public eye, yes, but remember that this is all hush-hush secret, confined to the highest halls of power. These are the men who have come to see their own people as statistics to be used up like resources after 4 years of grinding, total war. Imagine how little they care about other groups, like the French and poles.
 
In the public eye, yes, but remember that this is all hush-hush secret, confined to the highest halls of power. These are the men who have come to see their own people as statistics to be used up like resources after 4 years of grinding, total war. Imagine how little they care about other groups, like the French and poles.
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Imperial germany was not proto nazies...STOP
 
Ludendorff was a proto-Nazi. Agree though that while Hindenburg was very conservative and a militarist, he was ultimately loyal to the Kaiser, and would probably not have been very comfortable with shutting him out of the loop like this.
 
Imperial germany was not proto nazies...STOP
Agreed. I was referring to the way the story seemed to be going, honestly. It surprised me when it was implied that they wanted to depopulate France. Still think it is an excellent TL to far.
 
Ludendorff actually proposed similar ideas for Lithuania during the war with transfer of Lithuanian farmers out and movement of German farmers into those lands. Depopulation does not referring to placing people in camps in this case but exhausting military and human resources to potentially facilitate Germanization or aggrevate attempts at resistance to a New Order. Make no mistake, these ideas were being discussed during World War I in the East and to a lesser extent in the West. Von Hertling was a major advocate of 'total victory' and a post-war expansion as was Ludendorff, I believe Hindenburg was too. Also note that Belgium *was* being depopulated and 'harvested' for resources even into the last weeks of the war. The phrase often cited with this is 'population transfer'.

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/occupation_during_the_war_belgium_and_france
 
Interesting TL so far, though I do find the whole "create Pan-Scandinavia under Swedish rule" as something of a bridge too far. Getting Sweden to join the war in 1918 was already a bit of a stretch, as I will get into, but having current Swedish government go on some nationalistic ego-trip doesn't make sense given their political affiliation and the immensely important terror caused in Scandinavia by the October Revolution in Russia.

Neither Norway or Denmark were belligerents in the war and Sweden just recently released Norway after it became clear they would be unable to control the kingdom. The whole proposal sounds rather bizarre given that the Swedish king was basically powerless by this point in time following the deposal of Hjalmer Hammerskjöld in 1917. The current Liberal-Social Democratic ruling party would not have had any interest in having to conquer two entire countries when they are far more worried about the possibility that the Russian Revolution might spill over its borders. The whole language demand in Denmark and Norway is also several steps too far - now it could just be the Germans completely misreading the situation, but this just doesn't make sense given the political situation, the fact that opening up a front in Denmark would give the Americans the beachhead they are looking for and a range of other factors I will get into below.

Further, given how absolutely stretched out Germany is right now, how on earth would it seem like a good idea to open up a new military front to the north, barely a hundred kilometers from the Kiel Channel and the High Seas Fleet anchorage.

I am also not sure why on earth the Germans would want to add even more Danes to their Empire given the way minorities continually caused chaos in the Reichstag when they are already going to be dealing with angry French, Belgians and Poles alongside trying to keep peace in the massive eastern European empire they just built for themselves. I guess if you take the view on Ludendorff, Hidenburg and company as being megalomaniacal bunglers it would be an actual proposal, but beyond pipedreams an actaul "conquest" of Denmark makes no sense. Forcing them into the Zollervein and general economic/diplomatic supremacy would make much more sense.
 
09 April 1918 – London, England

“Read off the offer again, Mr. Balfour, I want to make sure I understand it correctly”, came the dry voice of Walter Long, Secretary of State for the Colonies.

“As you like, Mr Long, the offer stands as follows: $1 billion for everything west of 110o latitude including all islands therein to the Northernmost Pole. As for the counter requested, they state they want the latitude marker pushed east to 95 degrees, 9 minutes, and 15 seconds”.

Balfour looked over a bit confused. “Very specific landmark. I take it that means everything north of the vertical notch at Minnesota, Ontario, and Manitoba would be the new border”?

“Yes, all the way to Hudson Bay which would be remain a Canadian lake as it were. All islands in the Hudson would remain Canadian. They would also get the islands north of the mainland except Baffin, which would remain Canadian if the line even touches it”.

Lloyd George put his head into his hands. “And they made an offer on a few other entities as well”?

Long nodded. “Yes sir, Bermuda, Turks and Caicos, British Guiana, and the Bahamas were also discussed for an additional $200 million”.

“Leaving us the various Caribbean islands and British Honduras”, which are becoming less and less valuable over time, he thought.

“Yes sir, along with the Falklands and South Georgia Islands as well, not to mention a few other facilities”.

A door opened and a message came to Lloyd George, who read it as the door closed behind the messenger. “St. Pierre and Miquelon are now offered to us by the French for in exchange for loan forgiveness. Madagascar and French Guiana are also offered for the same. Apparently they want to talk about their colonies in Indochina and the concession in Shanghai as well”.

Arthur Henderson, a minister without portfolio, then spoke. “France is ready to surrender but wants to offload potential prizes for Germany before making that announcement”.

Andrew Law, leader of the House of Commons and the first ‘colonial’ to breach the upper echelons of British government, was left aghast. “My god”, he said, “I thought releasing Calliaux was a harsh step and naming him Prie Minister even more so, but this…”?

Henderson nodded. “How long can we expect our French ally to hold out, Mr. Stanley”?

The Minister of War hung his head slightly at the question. “Ten days, fifteen if absolutely necessary. German forces took Lizy-sur-Ourcq less than an hour ago and are rumored to be gearing up for a final assault on Paris”.

“They’re within 40 miles of Paris proper! That’s the closest they’ve been to Paris since the war began”! came a cry from Henderson.

“Actually no, it is not common knowledge but they briefly took some territory much closer to Paris than that, we simply kept it out of the news to avoid a panic. But this represents the closest they have come since the Marne counteroffensive three years ago, and Austrian divisions are arriving from Italy now that peace is declared there”. The peace between Italy and the Central Powers was all but negotiated out already, Italy was rumored to be given a light deal in exchange for immediate cessation of hostilities. Lombardy to be occupied for five years, Veneto for fifteen, and plebiscites afterwards. Some sort of taxes would be collected by the occupiers but Italy was spared the humiliation of financial reparations, it was also rumored that occupation of Lombardy might be spared if Italy joined the new rumored ‘European Union’ of German-dominated trade in Continental Europe. What would come of France in the days to come was anyone’s guess.

Lloyd George looked dismayed. “Where do our forces stand right now, Mr. Stanley”?

They are lucky to stand at all, Stanley thought, they were holding out as best they could…but…”Without the rail lines from Abbeville and Amiens our men must rely on the sea for resupply and the Germans are tossing everything they can into the area, including the Channel. Amazingly they began loading Zeppelins and bomber aircraft with armor-piercing bombs against our larger ships there – the effect is not noticeable as yet but combined with the damn German submarines we are losing a lot of smaller craft. We control a beachhead from Dunquerque to Etaples with the former on the edge of falling and the latter under siege. There are over half a million men in that area to evacuate or be taken prisoner. If they do get captured, the prospect of invasion would not be impossible although it would be highly unlikely”.

German landings in any sort of numbers on British soil, even if totally unsuccessful, would shatter morale and the myth of the ‘wooden walls’…perhaps ‘steel walls’ might be better in modern times…that kept Britain safe for centuries. IT could not be allowed to happen. “Calliaux is Prime Minster but still has fleeting strength left. Are evacuations to Bordeaux underway yet per their original plan”?

Balfour noted they were, “And the little remaining gold from the central bank is already being loaded for transport as well. We hear the Germans plan a lightening thrust on the city after flanking it from the east and west, Mr. Stanley”?

“Quite right”, the Minister of War noted, “And it appears their thrusts will target Louviers, Evreux, and Dreux in the north along with Provins, Fontainebleu, and Essonne in the South. The apparent main thrust will start in Meaux after it is captured with either Bavarian Crown Prince Rupprecht or Crown Prince Wilhelm in charge and aimed at the city center. Callaiux might declare it an open city but if he does know the war would likely be over. We also understand that Meaux will be the site of whatever last stand their forces can make, but defeatism already plagues the French Army more than even at the worst point last year”.

Lloyd George considered his position carefully. France was all but gone, apparently the United States would not arrive in time to save the Allied cause, and the British were left to collect so many loans that would not likely ever be redeemable. “Tell the Americans we accept their counter-offer pending confirmation in the House of Commons and brief the Canadian government”.

Law looked over an eyebrow raised. “Canada will hate us for this”.

Lloyd George looked warily over at the man from New Brunswick with tired eyes. “I would rather have the hatred of Canada than the love of the Germans, good sir. Besides”, he unexpectedly remarked, “we must also keep British interests in mind. I suggest we get ready to discuss the parameters for…”

A messenger walked in, this time with two notes labelled ‘URGENT’. Lloyd George read one and his face visibly sank, the second sent him into a cold sweat with trembling hands. “Well, Prime Minister, what do they say”?

Lloyd George swallowed and spoke softly. “The first is from Berlin asking for our terms, there is more to the message but we can go over it shortly. The second...is a notification from Calais...a few thousand soldiers have formed a sort of committee and declared the war to be over...but the problem is that 'membership' seems to be growing by the hour”.
 
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Interesting TL so far, though I do find the whole "create Pan-Scandinavia under Swedish rule" as something of a bridge too far. Getting Sweden to join the war in 1918 was already a bit of a stretch, as I will get into, but having current Swedish government go on some nationalistic ego-trip doesn't make sense given their political affiliation and the immensely important terror caused in Scandinavia by the October Revolution in Russia.

Neither Norway or Denmark were belligerents in the war and Sweden just recently released Norway after it became clear they would be unable to control the kingdom. The whole proposal sounds rather bizarre given that the Swedish king was basically powerless by this point in time following the deposal of Hjalmer Hammerskjöld in 1917. The current Liberal-Social Democratic ruling party would not have had any interest in having to conquer two entire countries when they are far more worried about the possibility that the Russian Revolution might spill over its borders. The whole language demand in Denmark and Norway is also several steps too far - now it could just be the Germans completely misreading the situation, but this just doesn't make sense given the political situation, the fact that opening up a front in Denmark would give the Americans the beachhead they are looking for and a range of other factors I will get into below.

Further, given how absolutely stretched out Germany is right now, how on earth would it seem like a good idea to open up a new military front to the north, barely a hundred kilometers from the Kiel Channel and the High Seas Fleet anchorage.

I am also not sure why on earth the Germans would want to add even more Danes to their Empire given the way minorities continually caused chaos in the Reichstag when they are already going to be dealing with angry French, Belgians and Poles alongside trying to keep peace in the massive eastern European empire they just built for themselves. I guess if you take the view on Ludendorff, Hidenburg and company as being megalomaniacal bunglers it would be an actual proposal, but beyond pipedreams an actaul "conquest" of Denmark makes no sense. Forcing them into the Zollervein and general economic/diplomatic supremacy would make much more sense.

Points well taken and appreciated.

*First, with the Central Powers now looking quite able to win the war, Sweden's entry into it becomes more likely. Gustaf V was rumored very pro-German and had seen Norway lost to his family barely a decade before. Norway would be a natural target especially as so much of their 'neutral' merchant and fishing fleets were feeding Britain at that time. It would not be a large theater at this late in the war, especially given the domino effect on the Western Front, and the main reason Norway left was because of a lock of voice in foreign affairs - this gives them some semblance of that if only for show. Also, Scandinavian unity was still a fresh idea, and by taking a light hand to the situation it brings Norway out of the British sphere which is what Germany *and* Sweden want. With so few deaths it also means a few other changes that will be explored later. Hammerskjold was noted, and a popular victory might allow the king to take back at least some power from Nils Eden's government in the long run. Miscalculations and unexpected consequences can always occur though, and if you remember some of those that Eden is famous for you might anticipate what I have in mind.

* -I came close to leaving that part out and just making Sweden a minor co-belligerent but the Norwegians would prove a very tempting target for Allied influence that might aggrevate them and Swedish counter-influence that might lead to war. There was a bit of luck in Sweden's situation that has not been discussed yet as well, they want the war to be over and *no one* wants another killing field in their own back yard. Again, some of this area has not been explored yet...it was a request from Sweden...

*Second, Denmark is not being invaded nor annexed. It is being left alone much as the USSR left Finland alone during the Cold War, an example of the softer side of an otherwise aggressive power when diplomacy suits their purpose. They can be economically manipulated/influenced after the war is over, much as the Netherlands could/would be under similar circumstances. Again, the vague German hope is that one day they *choose* to become part of the German Empire as they hope the Dutch will.

*Third, As for opening a new front, which is more valuable in wartime: creating a new battlefield to distract your existing enemies in the field, or eroding the already weakened morale of your enemy's leaders/soldiers by neutral sideliners thinking you'll win with enough confidence to toss their countries into the fray?

*Again, long-term dreams of the German leadership: Get Denmark to join the German Empire of their own accord. Short-term acceptable results: they are pressured to join the Zolliverin/European Union around 1922 so I'll work around the vaguely outlined episode I had for that.
 
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The Brits seem to be deep in it. By the way thank you for the clear answers, they clear up most of my questions.

Another question, given the immense amount of money etc. invested by leading private figures in the US into the British War effort - with the UK losing the war, they won't be able to repay their loans. While the US might be able to expand by writing off government debt it still leaves much of the US private sector heavily overleveraged and set for a pretty brutal economic crisis once things play out. Wouldn't the US be scrambling to try and prevent a private economy crash?
 
Another question, given the immense amount of money etc. invested by leading private figures in the US into the British War effort - with the UK losing the war, they won't be able to repay their loans. While the US might be able to expand by writing off government debt it still leaves much of the US private sector heavily overleveraged and set for a pretty brutal economic crisis once things play out. Wouldn't the US be scrambling to try and prevent a private economy crash?
Actually until the US joined WW1 all Entente loans were secured, so the private sector loans should mostly be safe. This is a frequent issue raised when debating the effects of a neutral US on WW1, namely that despite US troops making minimal impact until after Operation Michel had already failed the Entente would likely have run out of credit in 1917 had the US stayed neutral.
It will however undoubtedly lead to further embarrassment for Britain, when all that collateral is being seized. Potential rebels throughout the Empire might smell blood in the water, while at the same time with Britains betrayal of Canada Australia, New Zealand and South Africa might also seek to break away lest Britain sell parts of them as well. The Empire might come apart at the seams without a single Evil Hun Soldier ;) ever setting foot on Great Britain.
 
With the gold standard a key facet in British international domination of finance and the debt of just under £6 billion at the end of March 1918, the British need gold and *fast*. Loans from France, Italy, and Russia were risky to start with but their financial situation after the war is in question, as are the stabilities of their governments. Repatriations in land and money by the Allies would be likely under this scenario and even if the governments in Paris, Rome, and Petrograd survive their ability to pay back anything would be severely limited. Meanwhile the challenge to London from New York and soon either Frankfurt or Berlin would mean the British could lose their best means of functional soft diplomacy unless they act quickly. I had heard of plans as radical as this being floated at one time but am unable to verify them in print at this time, but the telegram will have unexpected consequences in the USA and abroad.
Slightly OT but maybe the Romanian Treasure didn't make it to Russia to be expropriated by the Bolsheviks? There were three trains; the first left Iaşi (in Moldova, eastern Romania, and the temporary capital after Bucharest was occupied at the beginning of December) at around 3AM (local time) on the night of 14/15 December 1916 loaded with gold bullion. 21 carriages carried about 120 tonnes of bullion (in ingots) along with two hundred armed police guards. Included in the shipment was a collection of Queen Maria's personal jewellery.

On 27 July 1916 a second and third train were dispatched to Russia. The first had three wagons loaded with 188 crates containing several tonnes more bullion, artworks and the State archives.

The final train was larger, 24 wagons (3,549 crates) holding an immense collection of works-of-art and other precious objects of the Romanian state. These included a set of 3,500 year old gold jewelry, the archives of the Romanian Academy, a collection of ancient Dacian jewels, the accumulated jewels of the voivodes of Wallachia and Moldavia, the historical archives of Braşov, the Romanian royal treasury and jewel collections, several thousands paintings, the religious objects owned by Romanian monasteries and churches (including icons and manuscripts), the collections of the National Museum of Antiquities and more.
It also contained cash, bullion and others valuables on deposit the national banks.

The value of this trainload is extremely difficult to estimate but the Russian government signed for it in the sum of 8.4 billion Romanian gold Lei, or around 370 million pounds Sterling in 1917.
 
It is my understanding that Britain loaned money to France, Russia, Italy, Portugal, and Belgium during the war and that these are the loans that Britain may lose. There may be others but this is what comes to my mind. Does anyone know how the amount of these loans? Also would Britain pressure Portugal to sign over Angola for debt forgiveness. Would they ask Belgium for transferring Katanga with its mineral wealth to cover their debt? I do not know if Britain has any interest in any Italian colonies other than their concession in China.
 
09 April 1918 – London, England
<snip>
Lloyd George swallowed and spoke softly. “The first is from Berlin asking for our terms, there is more to the message but we can go over it shortly. The second...is a notification from Calais...a few thousand soldiers have formed a sort of committee and declared the war to be over...but the problem is that 'membership' seems to be growing by the hour”.
Ah, the Calais Soviet has arrived, a nine months early, complete with Soldiers’ Council (at Valdelièvre I assume?).
This will bugger things up, historically the mutineers fortified the camp against attack, occupied the military headquarters at Calais and has over twenty thousand men behind them. And extensive support from French civilians, including railway workers who refused to transport troops to suppress the nascent Calais Soviet.
When Byng finally arrived to suppress the mutiny he found his troops unwilling to fire on their own.

When the Canadian troops here about the selling-off of their country I'd expect something worse than the historical Kinmel Park mutiny too.
 
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