Kalterkrieg: The Jackboot and the Rising Sun

Foreword
Foreword: This timeline and scenario will be based on both the Amazon TV Show and other elements from Fatherland, The New Order and other alternate histories. However, there will be no science fiction type material such as dimension flipping and alternate universes. This is just a unique crafted scenario to give the idea of a Nazi-Japanese Cold War the justice it deserves. Man in the High Castle, as interesting as it is, barely touches the worldbuilding, politics and overall scenario it takes place in. Elements will be expanded upon which have been ignored in many Nazi Victory scenarios. The first set of posts on this thread will be the nations and world-building.
 
You might need to shift forums for this one. Nazi invasion of Britain is very much out of the cards, let alone a joint effort to invade and occupy the USA. Curious to see your world building though
 
Like Alex1guy stated, invasion to UK is pretty much impossible or at least hellish difficult. And there is not way how Japan and Germany invade USA. It is totally ASB.

Not sure how you are thought this being happen but I remind about one common Nazi cliche. Unlike for example Harris' The Fatheland express there is not such thing than Nazi nuclear bomb. Nazi ideology couldn't accept such thing due "Jewish Science". So they thought that it couldn't work.

Nazi victory issomehow possible but not that way.
 
It must be frustrating for the OP to see people scream ASBs when he sets out to more or less seriously expand on the world building of Man in the High Castle/Fatherland
 
It must be frustrating for the OP to see people scream ASBs when he sets out to more or less seriously expand on the world building of Man in the High Castle/Fatherland
It's the nature of this part of the forum, plausibility etc. On the other hand exploring world building without attempts at plausibility is perfect for the writers forum. I posted a red alert 2 scenario there for this exact reason, you get different feedback
 
It must be frustrating for the OP to see people scream ASBs when he sets out to more or less seriously expand on the world building of Man in the High Castle/Fatherland

The world of both books is essentially ASB material to begin with. Both authors had to do a LOT of handwaving to get to their worlds.
 
Like Alex1guy stated, invasion to UK is pretty much impossible or at least hellish difficult. And there is not way how Japan and Germany invade USA. It is totally ASB.

Not sure how you are thought this being happen but I remind about one common Nazi cliche. Unlike for example Harris' The Fatheland express there is not such thing than Nazi nuclear bomb. Nazi ideology couldn't accept such thing due "Jewish Science". So they thought that it couldn't work.

Nazi victory issomehow possible but not that way.
Perhaps there is a very early pod, no reason for nuclear bomb to be considered Jewish science if someone else, perhaps Otto Hahn is considered by them to be the sole creator of nuclear science.
Then of course, USA. Extremely implausible, but not totally impossible if for example a worse depression and a sort of civil breakdown of order occurs and white supremacy rises as an ideology, making occupation easy. Very implausible, probably butterflies Nazis but not completely impossible.
 
The world of both books is essentially ASB material to begin with. Both authors had to do a LOT of handwaving to get to their worlds.
Well, Fatherland is not exactly ASB but stil very very implausible. But agree with MITHC. It is totally ASB. AH books rarely are very plausible and sometimes go to ASB territory. But it is too understandable when authors have get their books sold which would be difficult if these would are such hard AH like on this site.

But this site is pretty much hard AHTL site where people are very critical with TLs (good thing IMO altough it might seem bit strict for newbies). You have study history very carefully and read threads on this board. You have make much of background work that people think that being plausible. And of course you must be good writer too.

Perhaps there is a very early pod, no reason for nuclear bomb to be considered Jewish science if someone else, perhaps Otto Hahn is considered by them to be the sole creator of nuclear science.
Then of course, USA. Extremely implausible, but not totally impossible if for example a worse depression and a sort of civil breakdown of order occurs and white supremacy rises as an ideology, making occupation easy. Very implausible, probably butterflies Nazis but not completely impossible.
Well, there is not much hints for that. Might be possible avoid Jewishness of nuclear science without changing too much but if USA collapses in 1930's I don't see any reason why Axis would invade former United States.
 
It's the nature of this part of the forum, plausibility etc. On the other hand exploring world building without attempts at plausibility is perfect for the writers forum. I posted a red alert 2 scenario there for this exact reason, you get different feedback
The point is that he’s not creating a fantasy world, rather he’s taking a popular (no matter how improbable) world that has already been made, and then conducting a serious analysis (hard AH) of what the world would look like and happen then.

Perhaps there is a very early pod, no reason for nuclear bomb to be considered Jewish science if someone else, perhaps Otto Hahn is considered by them to be the sole creator of nuclear science.
Then of course, USA. Extremely implausible, but not totally impossible if for example a worse depression and a sort of civil breakdown of order occurs and white supremacy rises as an ideology, making occupation easy. Very implausible, probably butterflies Nazis but not completely impossible.
Well, Fatherland is not exactly ASB but stil very very implausible. But agree with MITHC. It is totally ASB. AH books rarely are very plausible and sometimes go to ASB territory. But it is too understandable when authors have get their books sold which would be difficult if these would are such hard AH like on this site.

But this site is pretty much hard AHTL site where people are very critical with TLs (good thing IMO altough it might seem bit strict for newbies). You have study history very carefully and read threads on this board. You have make much of background work that people think that being plausible. And of course you must be good writer too.
AH.com takes “Hard” AHTL to the extreme where you’ll see posters argue that major changes in history (such as a reverse Midway) would have little to no impact on history, that is there would be no significant deviation. In their aim to be “plausible” they try to make history a science, by trying to establish a correlation between A and B and ignoring all other factors because they simply don’t wish to recognize what impact that may have because it falls outside their narrow scope of “plausibility”. For example, When talking about a “Reverse Midway”, many posters are quick to jump on US ship production numbers, but refuse to discuss morale, changes in leadership, or other even to directly or indirectly related. For example, after a “Reverse Midway”, what would be the effect on the Mediterranean or Eastern Fronts? Essentially, “hard” AHTL mostly ignore butterflies because they aren’t “scientific” enough and thus implausible, even though ignoring them makes the TL, no matter how well researched, implausible itself. Finally, most times, particularly in WW2 discussions, it seems to be assumed that one side will always make the correct decisions, which is incorrect. Just because historically the United States used its potential to the fullest IOTL does not mean that in every scenario it would have. There are many scenarios out there where the US makes a mess out of its wartime economy while Germany and Japan don’t.

This is why I don’t consider anything that directly mentions ASBs to be “ASB”. Plenty of things that happened IOTL (like the Fall of France) would be derided as “ASB” in an ATL by these “hardliners” because it doesn’t fit their biased perceptions of plausibility.
 
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A Better World

April 23rd, 1962
Japanese Pacific States
German Embassy

The morning hours of work for the Trade Minister proved slow and repetitive. Trade deficiencies with Imperial Subjects here, piracy in the South China Sea there and to top it all off new German tariffs. Tagomi when faced with these issues quite often consulted the I Ching, however, the results today were inconclusive at best and troubling at worst. Tagomi, as 12:00 approached, had his midday tea. It was brought by his aid Kotomichi, Tagomi-san took the cup with somewhat shaky hands "thank you Kotomichi". His aide Kotomichi noticed his uncomfortableness "Is there something wrong Trade Minister"? Tagomi sighed "These new round of tariffs aren't looking good for the Empire, the Germans know were to hit us where it hurts and that's on our rubber and oil supply". "But surely Trade Minister these tariffs must also have a negative effect on the Reich".

Tagomi sighed while filing through the paperwork and complex details of the trade. Kotomichi piped up after Tagomi finished sipping his tea "Trade Minister the last thing today is the meeting at 17:30 with the German ambassador Diels". Time passed fast until the clock hit 17:00, Tagomi walked down the stairs of the Japanese Authority Building to the garage where an ambassador's car picked him up. Tagomi went over the documents in the car on the way over to the German embassy. As the car approached the building it was stopped by armed guards wearing the standard swastica armbands. Tagomi handed over his papers along with his aides to the German guards, The guard handed them back and let them pass. Tagomi-San entered the embassy and headed toward the main German conference room.

A German Officer in his fractured Japanese noticed Tagomi "Mr. Tagomi, this way sir" the officer pointed to the main conference room. Tagomi sat down in the nearest chair and observed the room. It had a giant swastica upon the window, Tagomi scowled, although he would never say it aloud he hated that symbol. Two men in German uniforms entered the room one in a military suit and another in an expensive suit both bore the swastica. "Trade Minister, sorry to keep you waiting, my name is Oberfuhrer Diels shall we begin". "Yes, that would be most ideal, seeing the current situation", "very well, as you are indeed aware new sanctions have been put upon the Japanese Empire". "Yes I am indeed aware Oberfuhrer and that is precisely why I am here", "then you are also firmly aware that the Reich will not budge on these sanctions seeing the concerning trends in the neutral zone".

Tagomi-San sighed "My Empire and your Reich when it came to victory in America's decided upon a policy of establishing a zone of nonconference by either faction". Diels nodded but added with a hiss "Yes but it has become precisely what we had feared at those negotiations years ago, a haven for Semites, the resistance, and even worse Reds". Tagomi responded calmly "The government of the Pacific States has a very clear and firm stance on this matter I'm afraid, we will not involve ourselves in any action inside the Neutral Zone and nor should the Reich". "Unfortunately we have been forced to take some action on this front due to this very inaction by the Pacific States" Diels countered. Tagomi finally spoke, "this trade war will harm both our Empires and is based on fundamental disagreements in the Treaty of Honululu". Diels calmed his tone "Yes it will but unfortunately until there is renegotiation over the Neutral Zone, which the Empire has refused to do, these sanctions will remain in place".

Tagomi sensing an end to this conversation got out of his chair, Diels did the same before Tagomi began to talk again "Very well then, I am sorry these negotiations could not prove more fruitful Oberfuhrer". "I am sorry to Trade Minister", Tagomi-San bowed along with Kotomichi while Diels with the other Nazi did the custom salute. Minutes later back in the ambassador's car, Tagomi-San turned to Kotomichi "No progress today I'm afraid, I'll have to consult the I Ching before I leave work today" Kotomichi nodded respectively. As the pair drove back to the Japanese Authority Building the sun began setting and reflected across the reconstructed Golden Gate Bridge (it had been destroyed in 1946 by American forces in a desperate retreat once they had lost San Fransisco). It had been a very long day indeed.
 
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But it is a fantasy world. Nazi Germany and Japan invading the US in WWII or anytime around that isn't possible. The logistics are simply beyond both nations.

That doesn't mean the idea isn't interesting, but there are appropriate forums aka ASB Forum, Writers Forum or Shared Worlds (if collaborative).
 
Not a bad concept. However, an Axis conquest of America is really unplausable for logistic reasons. If you consider that how the Axis conquered America to be not plausable enough, jusy ask the moderator to move the thread to another forum and continue from there. I'm interested in what your take about this popular scenario is going to be
 
Not a bad concept. However, an Axis conquest of America is really unplausable for logistic reasons. If you consider that how the Axis conquered America to be not plausable enough, jusy ask the moderator to move the thread to another forum and continue from there. I'm interested in what your take about this popular scenario is going to be
Who should I contact to move the thread? Do I really have to move the thread?
 
Who should I contact to move the thread? Do I really have to move the thread?
I don't know should this move to other sub-forum but if you want or other strongly feel that this should be on other sub-forum you can ask moderators. But if someone has already reported to mods and if mods feel that this is in wrong place they will do that.
 
You Don't Get a Choice, None of us Do

April 30th, 1962
Reichskommisariat Moscowien
Outskirts of Arkhangelsk

The cold air of winter hanged over in the outskirts of the province of Arkhangelsk, Dima was used to the cold he grew up with it in fact. Anyone born after 41 had to endure the brutality and hard life of the following years. Dima was no exception, along with millions of others he had been part of the "Great Transfer" eventually resettling in Perm. The war never truly ended for the Soviets or the Germans, it only stagnated and quieted down. Dima volunteered for the 153rd Rifle's which specialized in moving behind German lines and striking deep. "Comrade hand me a smoke", an older looking man in his late-30s lit his cigarette.

Dima glanced at the man, it almost didn't matter what his actual age was. He could've been fifty or sixty even though he was on the younger side. Certain cold darkness rested in his eyes, Dima had seen it before in almost all veterans of "The War". After taking a couple of puffs from his cigarette Dima threw it into the wet ground. "These were always tasted like shit" scarfed Dima, "better something than nothing" the older man shot back coldly. "We need to get a move on, the patrols will be on us soon" Dima complied with the instructions and loaded his AK-47 provided by some factory in the Urals and began walking with the older man. As they headed toward their target Dima piped up "What's your name Comrade", "Nikolai". Nikolai replied "where are you from a kid" "my mother was from Leningrad before the Transfer, I grew up in Perm".

Nikolai remained quiet as they kept walking. Eventually, they reached a road junction, alongside it there was a decrepit farmhouse with a window overlooking the junction. "This will do, set your AK in that house, I'll be with you in a minute I have to set the charges". Dima entered the house, it smelled of rotting wood and hay, as he went up the stairs they creaked painfully. As he approached the window he noticed new smells, piss, and rotten bread. However, it didn't bother him, for now, he had a job to do, Dima then smashed upon the window and set his AK in position. Although the Union had been hurt it was still a strong force and had plenty of equipment, weapons for its brave sons. Dima set his sights on the junction and heard a shout from below "the charges are set, I'll be with you in a bit" yelled Nikolai. Soon both men found themselves waiting for a couple of hours eventually Nikolai began to open up to him. "I was born in Smolensk, Nikolai took a swig of water then passed it to Dima "I barely managed to escape the German encirclement in 41, let alone survive the next decade of the war".

Nikolai then came to alert, noises were coming from the distance. "Get down, the patrols are coming" whispered Nikolai, Dima readied the AK and Nikolai carried an SKS with the detonator. Sure enough, the patrol came, there were three vehicles two trucks and one staff car. Dima prepared himself along with Nikolai who had the detonator at the ready, soon the vehicles passed over the explosives. Nikolai clicked it.... but nothing happened "some mudak fucked up in building this thing" he snarled, Dima, however, took action immediately. He aimed his AK at one of the explosives, what felt like minutes lasted less than a second, he pulled the trigger. Although most vehicles passed the explosives, the last truck wasn't lucky.

The explosion ran out across the emptiness of the region and obliterated the truck. Germans came pouring out of the truck screaming, bleeding and on fire. Men in the first truck and staff car leaped out yelling looking for cover, Dima and Nikolai opened fire taking the Germans further by surprise. Nikolai picked off the officers one by one with his SKS. Meanwhile, Dima mercilessly sprayed whatever troops remained alive. Some tried to return fire with Karabiners and other rifles but it was futile. Dima and Nikolai began to stop firing as they encountered no movement. Upon this Nikolai punched Dima straight in the stomach "next time you want to do something like that warn me first".

Dima after absorbing the punch walked out with Nikolai. Bodies were everywhere, in the field with blood mixed with snow and mud. As he walked among the bodies past the second burning truck he began noticing things. The rifles the Germans were using were old, worn and at best operational, the soldiers were very thin and lean packing little fat or muscle along with this they were young. Dima began scavenging whatever weapons or supplies he could carry, as he was looting another body he noticed more. This German was young, too young barely even 18 looking not old enough to shave. He took a picture out of the breast pocket of his jacket, it was a picture of a family of three. One man on the right along with a woman (presumably his wife to his right). She was carrying a baby, on the back, it was written: "Neu Bavaria", 1946.

"Settlers, damn settlers," Dima thought to himself until finally, Nikolai yelled out "Dima get over here now". Dima stood up taking the photograph with him and walked over to Nikolai. Before Nikolai there was a man shot, bleeding out but appeared to be alive. He looked up at the two and spoke in a raspy voice, to Dima's surprise it wasn't German, it was Russian he was speaking. He was praying while bleeding out and turned over revealing a badge on his gray uniform (seen below) "He's one of Vlasov's scum" spoke Nikolai, Dima simply stood by and watched. Once the man stopped praying Nikolai aimed his SKS and fired, putting the man out of his misery. "Let's get going Dima, it will be dark soon" Dima and Nikolai began walking away from the burning trucks and bodies. Dima then spoke, "I didn't volunteer to kill my own people, I volunteered to kill Germans". "You don't get a choice Dima, none of us do, they are traitors to the motherland nothing more". Soon the men set up camp in a nearby ditch and the day was over.
 
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Indifference

May 2nd, 1962
Greater German Reich
Germania

Late-night Rudolf Wagner sat in his office staring into the blank space, such was the norm for unprogressive late workdays in the Reich. Wagner had nothing to do for hours on end at times if he even did it was passed down to some ideologue clerk of his. Wagner was in his early 50s, he was no genius but no fool either, on the surface he was old-timer party loyalist. In reality, Wagner was a cynical man like many others in the Reich. On the surface, the Reich appeared to be dominant and strong throughout the world. However, in reality, the opposite was true. The Fuhrer was dying, the Kommisariats were restless, the Soviets were encroaching, the economy was stagnant and power struggles were beginning to take shape. There was a certain rot in the air in Germania, everyone with a brain and a nose could smell it.

As Wagner contemplated this he grew more tired and decided to head home, whatever that was. He exited his ministry and walked toward the central transit conveniently located near his office in central Berlin. The main transit system was a brainchild of Albert Speer a now-controversial figure within the Reich. As he boarded the train Wagner found a decent seat near the front, almost no one worked as late as Wagner did thus affording him a much-appreciated quiet. Speer, Wagner thought. He was a good man but a naive one and playing a dangerous game indeed. Snakes like Bormann, Goering, and monsters like Heydrich and Himmler would see him put to death for his ideals. But the architect was popular amongst the youth, promising "reform", "a human face to Nazism" and "liberalization". The youth were ignorant, built on a system that gave them everything yet, all the same, they criticized it openly at the pain of death even. Other then Speer, Bormann wished for a brutal bureaucratic status quo and Goering wished for another war to finally dominate the world under the Reich Even worse was the SS who were even further right then the Fuhrer himself, they saught complete purity and loyalty through a "New Order".

Wagner was indifferent when it came to politics all he cared about at this point was surviving. The train stopped and Wagner went off heading towards his apartment. Wagner arrived at his apartment and began to unwind, pouring himself a helpful serving of beer along with turning on the Fernsehen. It automatically came on to a news broadcast, "Today German settlements in Namibia came under attack by Pan African Liberation Front, the Fuhrer today has vowed retribution and assured that the Reich will do whatever it can to secure. Wagner turned off the Fernsehen seeing nothing new and not wanting to listen to pure propaganda. Feeling tired after finishing his beer Wagner prepared to call it a night and decided to then take out the trash before going to bed. He then stepped outside to get it done, however, he found posters and spraypaint strewn across his building. he glanced and saw something he hadn't seen in years. A red hammer and sickle were sprayed against the wall along with the words "Speer ist schwach, zerstöre das gesamte kriminelle System!". He then went back inside and climbed into his bed contemplating what he just saw. Apparently there were some even more radical then Speers ilk. "I guess they didn't get all of them in 32" Wagner muttered to himself in a twisted sense of humor before finally falling asleep.
 
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