Kalishnikov as an American

cra0422

Mikhail Kalishnikov was the famed inventor of the AK-47 assault rifle. He came up with the idea while recuperating in a Red Army hospital where he was a tank sergeant. The AK-47 is known for being powerful, easy to use and maufacture, and being able to work under just about any conditions. What would have happened if Kalishnikov had defected to the U.S. while still developing his weapon? Would it have been developed at all? Would the U.S. have taken the design or would he have sold it to the highest bidder?
 

Tony Williams

The USA would have rejected it. The US Army examined the German StG 44 assault rifle after the war and decided that they weren't interested in an intermediate-power cartridge. Instead, they insisted that NATO adopt a new, full-power, rifle/MG cartridge (over the protests of Britain, Belgium and Canada who wanted a less-powerful 7mm), which is why we got saddled with the 7.62x51 NATO round.
 

panzerjay

i could see it. the regular army would be against it for all ready stated reasons. such a weapon could be "dumped on" or adopted by the mavericks of the special forces
 

Smaug

panzerjay said:
i could see it. the regular army would be against it for all ready stated reasons. such a weapon could be "dumped on" or adopted by the mavericks of the special forces
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I son't think anyone would spend millions on training Elite Soldiers, just to give them a crappy assault rifle. In my opinion, the AK47 and the M16 (after early problems were addressed), have turned out to be very respectable weapons. Similar in firepower, and ease of maintenance. I would imagine that if given a week, most users in the third world could take it apart and reassemble it with thier eyes closed. (I know I could with the M16)
 

Romulus Augustulus

I know the M-16 is actually a fairly effective weapon (apparently, the 5.56x45mm round is much more lethal than the 7.62x39mm or the 5.45x39mm...) but isn't it quite complicated and doesn't it require much more care and maintenance than the AK?

From what I've read, you can put the AK through things an M-16 could never tolerate, and on account of that some peasant kid with hookworm can use and maintain it easily without worrying about breaking it past any hope of repair, but with an M-16 the same can't be said...apparently, the same goes for many other Soviet weapons, including the RPG: cheap, reliable, effective, tough as nails, and very easy to operate.

Plus, how plausible would Kalashnikov defecting be, anyway?
 

Mike Stearns

The Bald Imposter said:
I don't see any reason that SOF would want it either.
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Considering that they use it in real life when the situation calls for it and considering that the only way to break it is to pour concrete down the barrel, or run over it with a tank? I must disagree.

Also, according to what I've heard about the M-16, because of the kind of powder that's used in the cartridge, it jams very easily.
 
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Landshark

We'd be talking about something more like a Valmet than a Soviet AK here. Considering the thing's easy to make and so bloody tough you actually have to sit down and think of ways to break it I think there'd be a market for it somewhere.
 

Mike Stearns

Landshark said:
We'd be talking about something more like a Valmet than a Soviet AK here. Considering the thing's easy to make and so bloody tough you actually have to sit down and think of ways to break it I think there'd be a market for it somewhere.
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I agree. As I said, basically the only way to break an AK-47 is to do stuff like run over it with a heavy combat vehicle and when you take that into consideration, yes, there'd almost certainly be an army somewhere that would buy it.
 

Tony Williams

A few comments:

It is correct that the AK series guns are rugged and reliable even with little or no maintenance. They were designed for a huge conscript army of many nationalities (and languages) and variable educational standards. This explains the Soviet preference for foolproof kit.

The M16 is reasonably reliable by the standards of Western military rifles, but it does need more looking after, especially in the dusty conditions you get in the Middle East, where frequent cleaning is necessary. The problems with propellant causing jams were solved about 35 years ago. The upside of the M16 is that it is much more of a precision instrument and can shoot very accurately. The AK's heavy bolt group and deliberately loose tolerances, designed to aid reliable functioning in all conditions, result in a much less accurate gun (although the accuracy is sufficient for most military purposes).

The relative effectiveness of the ammunition concerned - the M16's 5.56x45, and AK's 7.62x39 and the AK-74's 5.45x39 - is a controversial issue and you will find little agreement over it. What is undeniable is that the small-calibre high-velocity (SCHV) 5.56mm and 5.45mm rounds are lighter than the 7.62's so the soldier can carry more ammo. They also develop less recoil which helps accuracy, especially in burst fire. And they have a flatter trajectory which also helps accuracy and gives them a longer practical range.

Where the SCHV rounds fall down is in barrier penetration (NB - this is different from penetrating hard armour, at which the current 5.56mm ammo is actually quite good). But at blowing through walls etc, the bigger bullets are better. A bigger bullet also provides more consistent performance when it hits somebody. It isn't necessarily better, as the SCHV bullets can be devastatingly effective if they work as planned, but that doesn't always happen.

The US forces have kept the older 7.62x51 M14 rifles in use (and pulled many of them out of storage and refurbished them for use in the Middle East) because of their greater barrier penetration and more reliable performance. But the 7.62x51 NATO ammunition is much more powerful than the Russian 7.62x39. US Special Forces have recently adopted a new rifle, the FN SCAR, in two calibres - both 5.56x45 and 7.62x51.

The Chinese have adopted a new 5.8x42 cartridge, which is probably the best of the SCHV rounds.

If you're interested in this subject, you might like THIS article on my website, concerning the development of assault rifles and their ammunition.
 
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