(Kaiserreich) What do you think of the presidency of Geroge Moseley?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Gukpard, May 15, 2019.

  1. Gukpard hominem populist

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    OOC: This is based on my KR gameplay, however I gonna only say things about america, so you have a free hand to describe the rest of the world if you are european, asian, african or you just want to comment like you was. Let's begin, and remember that if you are a american you need to insert yourself on the context to comment about him.

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    George Van Horn Moseley (September 28, 1874 – November 7, 1960). 33rd president of the United States of America

    When the american civil war began on early 1937, no one could have ever expected to end in the way it did, not the war per se, but the USA. I finished reading the biography of the american stratocrat but some info can only be taken by talking with people, so I came here to discuss with you about what is your opinion on him, especially for americans.

    He rose to power by leading the main push towards DC and New York during the second american civil war, taking the capital without a fight and later helped Field Marshall Patton on his rusty belt campaign, earning a lot of prestige as both marched into Chicago and took the pic shaking hands back in '38 over a burned flag of the CSA after the city center was secured, just weeks before the capitulation of the CSA. By the end of 1939 with the surrender of the Remnants of the pacific it seemed that Huey Long and the unionist faction had won the war, until Long simple vanished. There are some conspiracy theories that the own FBI did that with him but as many documentaries shows and even the opened FBI and CIA files seems to prove that they really couldn't find any major leads¹. He collaborated the most he could with Huey's wife and the congress but after being unable to find Long the government hosted a huge ceremony on his tribute in memorian and he was elected for four more years. Back in 1940 no one could expect that he would rule for so long.

    From 1940 until 1956 Moseley led the United States of America, and his stratocratic policies continued being the norm until the 1980s reforms (even tough you can see some portraits of him or his sucessors on some official buildings). In one hand he turned the USA in the main industrial powerhouse of the Earth and pushed the living standart to the hightest just scant years after the end of the civil war (in fact by 1952 the american GDP was almost twice the german one), on another hand he did that through corporativist cooperation with many national monopolies and strong state intervention, while scrapping Long's plans for social justice reform, many people were almost worked to death on 12 hours a day 7 days a week working journeys in extremely crowded industrial centers and the market became very oligopolized, usually with one or two american monopoly companies controlling a entire sector (like the GM-Ford in the case of vehicles) with the only competition coming from foreign factories (like Opel, Porsche or Renault). Moseley granted tax breaks for the rich while reduced the nation bureocracy (at least on the economic side, we talk about the administration later).

    The main point that usually is pointed against him is the fact that he was not only a anti semite, but he remade america on his vision. The whole administration was reworked and the state per se became a de facto stratocracy, of the 49 states by 1956, 43 had local army men as their leaders, the boy scouts of america got militarized, the education system became a technocratical-militaristic one to both indocrinate the populace and also produce the minds of the future for the military industrial complex, at the same time that education was made free and became acessible for the whole population. The executive could overrule the congress since the War powers comitte reenacted martial law (that got only lifted in the 1980s!!!) and thus he had a free reign to militarize more and more the nation, the black chambers operation, the ever active FBI and the military police brought pride and fear for the common american, as the USA became the most authoritarian state on earth without crossing into totalitarism (like Mosleyite britain), parades became common while the US army became the state of the art example for the rest of the world, Patton took a lot of effort to build the armoured corps and succesfully made it even better than the german counterparts. The level of repression still causes a lot of debate today, even on his biography it is noticed that while the repressive apparatus was tremendous, it hardly was used because the nation was too eausted from the civil war and the FBI was too effective on finding possible agitators and eliminating them before they could create dissent, in general the average american could live a perfectly normal life enjoying a good living standart, in expense for the poor american who worked 12 hours to make his car and could only strike with previous government approval, something that hardly came.

    The stratocrat anti semite views also resulted on the flight of many jewish american figures to europe, the Rotschilds even described him as "The Codreanu of america" based on the anti semite dictator of Iron Guard Romania. Alltought he didn't went forward with harsher plans against the jewish community or the black community as proposed by radicals, the flight of the jewish capital to europe left a hole on american economy and a moral stain in the once proud home of the free that is only being slowy fixed now with reparations for affected families, but still a very slow process. The only remarkable good point of his administration on the ethical side is that he crushed the Silver legion and exposed their plans to turn black neighbourhoods into communities based on the native american reservations, and later his suessors ended the segregation, but in general his position towards the racial conflicts in america were apathetic, different from Huey Long that was openly against segregation and even some of Moseley subordinates who lead mixed race units.

    By 1956, with his health failling and at the same time claiming that he had finished his plans and a new leader was needed to keep reforming america towards the future he declared that he wouldn't "run" again for presidency, not that he was elected since the president was elected by the congress that was a pawn of the war powers comitte, so a new president was indirectly elected and kept the Stratocracy going on. He died in 1960 on war brought mourning in most of america, but also commemorations on the american exiles in Canada, South America and Europe, with even a famous pic showing a restaurant selling free burguers in Germany in commemoration of Moseley death. He's buried on Washington DC close to the Washington Monument on a mausoleum along with his wife.

    Finished the description, I want to know, what do you think of him? My personal opinion is that he is something like a "magnificent bastard", he cleary was a dictator and so built the strongest state on earth after the civil war, not a good person by any means, not a example to be followed, but still someone pragmatic and inteligent enought to execute his morally evil plans in perfection and to turn america to what he wanted with all the obstacles being slowy removed. I believe that on the future, now that the redemocratization is happening slowy in the last 30 years, we might see more about his crimes, and I wouldn't be surprised to find even worse things than the described above, so please, help me to change my mind if you desagree.

    ¹Went for the route of succesfully covering the B. plot. Usually theories that he killed Long are dismissed as conspiracy theories without much backing, alltough the opposition openly declares that he was behind the whole plan.
     
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  2. HIM Dogson Rationally Royalist

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    It really is a sick irony. My great-grandparents fled Europe to avoid Tsarist persecution. They came to America seeking opportunity and freedom, and within a few decades it would be ruled by a man who made Nicholas II seem like Cyrus the Great. I'm just glad my family was able to flee to Germany, and that the German Social Democrats created a state where Jews can achieve true equality. It's one thing to capitalize on antisemitism, as the Sorelians did in France. But Moseley in America destroyed something beautiful; hell, the Second Russian Empire isn't perfect but Jews are still better off there.

    So yeah, fuck Moseley. And, well, if it weren't for this board's stance on conspiracy theories I'd make my opinions on him and Long known.
     
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  3. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    If people like Oswald Mosley, Manuel Carlés, Corneliu Codreanu, and Hermann Göring didn't exist, I'd be willing to call Moseley easily the worst dictator in human history.

    I'm not even talking about all of the horrible shit he did in America after the Second Civil War or the devastation brought to Latin America during the early days of the Cold War, I despise Moseley because of the destruction people like him brought to my family.

    Back during the 1930s, my grandpa was a factory worker for Rockefeller. He had to endure terrible working conditions, abysmal wages, and long hours. This all got even worse when the Great Depression occurred. He later joined up with the SPA in 1933, and would be actively involved with them in the years leading up to the 1936 election. After MacArthur's coup, he enlisted in the Second Continental Army and would witness some of the most brutal battles of the war, like the Sacking of Philadelphia and the Rape of St. Louis. When the CSA capitulated, my grandpa tried to escape to Canada with my dad and grandma, but they got intercepted by the Minutemen before they could reach the border.

    My dad was forcibly separated from my grandparents, and was brought to a new "loyal" family down in Florida to be "integrated" into Moseley's new America. I don't know exactly what happened, because I haven't spoken to him in a very long time, but by the time I was born, he was one of the most distinguished leaders in the Boys Scouts and fiercely loyal to the War Powers Committee. If things turned out differently, I could've become exactly like him, like my two younger brothers.

    Meanwhile, my grandparents were taken to a sham trial, where they were found guilty of "high treason" and "attempting to bring down American democracy" and they were executed by firing squad. If it weren't for the fact that my dad kept photos and other things that belonged to them in a box in my family's attic, I never would've known about them at all. Not only that, but when I asked my dad about them, it led to a huge argument and we haven't really been on the most pleasant of terms with him since. Not only that, but since my brothers have been raised since birth to follow what my dad says, they haven't really wanted much to do with me, either. Because of the society that Moseley created, I have been pretty much ostracized by my parents and siblings for finding out the truth about the man, and I've spent the last several years of my life on my own.

    Fuck Moseley, fuck the War Powers Committee, and fuck everything they both stood for.
     
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  4. Gukpard hominem populist

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    So it seems that your dad was "part of the system", did he had a good life?
     
  5. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    For someone who was responsible for indoctrinating countless innocent children and encouraging them to fight in the numerous proxy wars the US got into against the Entente and Reichspakt, he lived one of the most extravagent lives someone of his status could have. Of course, that all came to an end when America started to resemble a democracy again, and soon his income from the War Powers Committee completely vanished. From what my mother's letters tell me (she's the only one who still communicates with me even after my fallout with Dad), he's become a huge alcoholic and pretty much mooches off of my brothers since they are the only people who are willing to give him a single cent.
     
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  6. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Don't forget Fumimaro Konoe in Japan and Subhas Chandra Bose in India. Good thing China was reunified by Chen Jiongming and his United Provinces of China when the sham of Qing Constitutionalism and national unity fell apart with the League of Eight Provinces.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019 at 9:33 AM
  7. HIM Dogson Rationally Royalist

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    I honestly don't know if I'd call Konoe worse than Moseley. Konoe was a monster but his goal was more noble than Moseley's. The thing that makes Moseley so bad is this: other dictators at least were acting in pursuit of something noble (except Codreanu and Göring but both of them got offed by Blessed Karl and Berlin respectively before they could do major damage); Konoe wanted a Japan that was perfect, equal, and representative, Mosley wanted a Britain where the revolution was secure, etc. Moseley just wanted power for himself and the corporations, abusing Huey Long's dream.
     
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  8. Gukpard hominem populist

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    What if Huey Long had kept power instead? What do you think of it?
     
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  9. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    He would be 100x better than Moseley. I know that much.
     
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  10. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Well, the USA wouldn't be allied with Carles' Argentina and probably have aligned with the Reichspakt.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019 at 10:55 PM
  11. Gukpard hominem populist

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    Carlés died in 47, you mean the Junta Argentina?

    OOC: with The AUS on Japan's side, there is no way Japan would lose to china, so I think this should be edited out.
     
  12. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    OOC: Fixed that.

    IC: Well, Moseley formed his alliance with Argentina when Carles was still around.
     
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  13. HIM Dogson Rationally Royalist

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    I am a large fan of Huey Long; I think that he was the best of bad options during the civil war; his worst mistake was trusting Moseley. America under him would have been alright.
     
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  14. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    So, why do you think did the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and Moseley's League of American States team up in the 1950s?
     
  15. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    Well, the Reichspakt and Entente wanted nothing to do with either of them, so I believe they wanted whatever allies they could both get. Especially in the case of Japan, since their conquests in Asia and the Pacific greatly overstretched their supply lines and the embargoes from Germany and Canada would’ve eventually collapsed the Japanese economy if the US didn’t get involved.
     
  16. Gukpard hominem populist

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    Third weltkrieg. China would be subdued and broken up and The entente would have no way to save Canada from a Moseleyite invasion. Nuclear weapons were not a thing until the seventies and the ones that existed before were few and weak