Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg

[Worffan101]

"Strike the Jewish menace"

You're literally making apologia of an antisemitic mod

Seriously?

The Sorellians have always been insane bigoted CommieNazis in the lore. This just makes it obvious in-game (which, frankly, was sorely needed considering that in gameplay terms DEAT is worse even though he's just a petty authoritarian instead of a psychopathic bloodthirsty lunatic).

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

"Strike the Jewish menace"

You're literally making apologia of an antisemitic mod

Seriously?

The Sorellians have always been insane bigoted CommieNazis in the lore. This just makes it obvious in-game (which, frankly, was sorely needed considering that in gameplay terms DEAT is worse even though he's just a petty authoritarian instead of a psychopathic bloodthirsty lunatic).

Exactly.

He's not making apologia and the mod isn't antisemitic - that's like saying that a movie showing the concentration camps in all their horror was antisemitic. It's just recognising that what is clearly an antagonistic faction can go antisemitic.

 

[Lord Insane]

Seriously?

The Sorellians have always been insane bigoted CommieNazis in the lore. This just makes it obvious in-game (which, frankly, was sorely needed considering that in gameplay terms DEAT is worse even though he's just a petty authoritarian instead of a psychopathic bloodthirsty lunatic).

Deat, of course, is the Chairman in the Vanguard path, Maurice Thorez having replaced him over with the Jacobins. We know there'll also be a revamped Jacobin path, so there'll be at least three Totalist paths in France, although given the submod is called Triumph of Totalism and with the description given it doesn't sound like revamping the non-Totalist paths in the CoF.

And yeah, there's no evidence the mod is antisemitic because it shows antisemites as antisemites. For all we know, the focus effects of Strike the Jewish Menace and events it triggers will make abundantly clear that what is going is not remotely a good thing.

 

[Worffan101]

Deat, of course, is the Chairman in the Vanguard path, Maurice Thorez having replaced him over with the Jacobins. We know there'll also be a revamped Jacobin path, so there'll be at least three Totalist paths in France, although given the submod is called Triumph of Totalism and with the description given it doesn't sound like revamping the non-Totalist paths in the CoF.

And yeah, there's no evidence the mod is antisemitic because it shows antisemites as antisemites. For all we know, the focus effects of Strike the Jewish Menace and events it triggers will make abundantly clear that what is going is not remotely a good thing.

I really want a flavor boost for Comrade Makhno and the Travailleurs, maybe something like Mexico has where there's multiple democratic paths in the same tree and you can take each one? Comrade Makhno is awesome and one the best reasons to play radsoc.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

And yeah, there's no evidence the mod is antisemitic because it shows antisemites as antisemites. For all we know, the focus effects of Strike the Jewish Menace and events it triggers will make abundantly clear that what is going is not remotely a good thing.

Well quite. In vanilla HOI2 the Rape of Nanking happens when you take Nanking, and between the massive knock to international relations it gives you, the description and, oh yeah, the name, it's made pretty clear it's a bad thing - you wouldn't call the game 'anti-Chinese' for having that in it...

 

[Nyvis]

Exactly.

He's not making apologia and the mod isn't antisemitic - that's like saying that a movie showing the concentration camps in all their horror was antisemitic. It's just recognising that what is clearly an antagonistic faction can go antisemitic.

I'm about certain a mod made solely to add a bunch of edgy totalist paths isn't tastefully handling antisemitism.

Worffan may just think this is normal way to handle it. But that shit is still problematic.

 

[Godwin]

"Strike the Jewish menace"

You're literally making apologia of an antisemitic mod

I'm about certain a mod made solely to add a bunch of edgy totalist paths isn't tastefully handling antisemitism.

Worffan may just think this is normal way to handle it. But that shit is still problematic.

I'm sorry people historically believed and did bad things? I really don't know what your issue is here. The fact of the matter is not every country is going to be sunshine and rainbows and it shouldn't be.

The fact of the matter is that sometimes people like playing the bad guy. Germany makes up the vast majority of vanilla hoi4 campaigns followed by the Soviet Union. Not exactly bastions of tolerance and good will among men. Neither for that matter are the United States or United Kingdom. People did and do shitty things. Governments did and do really shitty things.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

I'm about certain a mod made solely to add a bunch of edgy totalist paths isn't tastefully handling antisemitism.

Worffan may just think this is normal way to handle it. But that shit is still problematic.

More problematic to not contain it. Like, one of the more problematic things in vanilla HOI in the German campaign is the lack of reference to the Holocaust or Nazi anti-semitism, because that's...well, you can see why that's an issue.

 

[Worffan101]

I'm sorry people historically believed and did bad things? I really don't know what your issue is here. The fact of the matter is not every country is going to be sunshine and rainbows and it shouldn't be.

The fact of the matter is that sometimes people like playing the bad guy. Germany makes up the vast majority of vanilla hoi4 campaigns followed by the Soviet Union. Not exactly bastions of tolerance and good will among men. Neither for that matter are the United States or United Kingdom. People did and do shitty things. Governments did and do really shitty things.

Speaking of vanilla Germany, they really need a constant set of debuffs to represent the Holocaust and regular events that basically remind the player over and over that Nazi Germany was Stupid Evil and is not something to be agreed with in any way, shape, or form.

Because right now, vanilla Germany is effectively toothless evil that is set up as the optimal country mechanically for a world conquest run. And that, in my view, is way more dangerous than a few neo-Nazis complaining that when they play Hitler they're told that murdering Jews is evil; by whitewashing Nazi Germany, vanilla HOI4 effectively minimizes the atrocities of the Nazi regime. One can argue that this isn't necessary; after all, doesn't everybody know that Hitler was evil? But given certain recent events in America and elsewhere, I honestly thin that people need the reminder that the Nazis were pure evil from Hitler's office to the lowest goon in Dirlewanger's penal brigade.

 

[Godwin]

More problematic to not contain it. Like, one of the more problematic things in vanilla HOI in the German campaign is the lack of reference to the Holocaust or Nazi anti-semitism, because that's...well, you can see why that's an issue.

This. And while from a marketing standpoint it makes sense to a corporation, whitewashing history is more or less the same as not teaching it and in some circumstances akin to propaganda.

 

[Worffan101]

Also, Kaiserreich itself has fucking Pelley, who's basically American Hitler, complete with reign of terror and deliberately appalling flavor events and focuses about purging people, gulags, formalizing the Jim Crow caste system across America, etc.

 

[Godwin]

Also, Kaiserreich itself has fucking Pelley, who's basically American Hitler, complete with reign of terror and deliberately appalling flavor events and focuses about purging people, gulags, formalizing the Jim Crow caste system across America, etc.

Exactly. I'd hardly say that mod or even that path are advocating in favor of an apartheid theocratic dictatorship.

 

[herkles]

Also, Kaiserreich itself has fucking Pelley, who's basically American Hitler, complete with reign of terror and deliberately appalling flavor events and focuses about purging people, gulags, formalizing the Jim Crow caste system across America, etc.

as the guy who designed the Pelly Path I will say that I tried to make it pretty clear and obvious that his path is terrible and shitty. Researching it was rather icky to just read that shit.


As for Vanilla a part of it is the german laws regarding the holocaust IIRC. Not to mention showing it in a way that is somehow tasteful.

 

[Nyvis]

I'm sorry people historically believed and did bad things? I really don't know what your issue is here. The fact of the matter is not every country is going to be sunshine and rainbows and it shouldn't be.

The fact of the matter is that sometimes people like playing the bad guy. Germany makes up the vast majority of vanilla hoi4 campaigns followed by the Soviet Union. Not exactly bastions of tolerance and good will among men. Neither for that matter are the United States or United Kingdom. People did and do shitty things. Governments did and do really shitty things.

This isn't the problem I have. Tastefully handling those topics is important, and should be done. A mod just adding a bunch of nazbol paths has quite a different outlook to me? The goal is clearly for them to be able to play this and enjoy it.

This isn't kaiserdux as a whole, it's the totalist paths submod.

Also, Kaiserreich itself has fucking Pelley, who's basically American Hitler, complete with reign of terror and deliberately appalling flavor events and focuses about purging people, gulags, formalizing the Jim Crow caste system across America, etc.

Pretty sure this is a mod of basically just adding Pelleys.

 

[Worffan101]

as the guy who designed the Pelly Path I will say that I tried to make it pretty clear and obvious that his path is terrible and shitty. Researching it was rather icky to just read that shit.


As for Vanilla a part of it is the german laws regarding the holocaust IIRC. Not to mention showing it in a way that is somehow tasteful.

It worked, Pelley is a freaking lunatic.

Still, there should at least be some mechanical consumer-factory penalty and constant event reminders to represent a regime that is putting a significant part of its resources towards mass-murdering an entire religion, a separate ethnic group, and as many LGBT people and political rivals as can be found.

 

[Godwin]

This isn't the problem I have. Tastefully handling those topics is important, and should be done. A mod just adding a bunch of nazbol paths has quite a different outlook to me? The goal is clearly for them to be able to play this and enjoy it.

This isn't kaiserdux as a whole, it's the totalist paths submod.

The goal of a game to play it and enjoy it. You can enjoy being the bad guy and entertaining the dark side of the human psyche without turning into a nazi. In fact I'd argue it's healthier to express that through a video game than bottle it up and express it in the real world. Not everything has a second agenda. Not everything has a hidden meaning.

 

[Nyvis]

The goal of a game to play it and enjoy it. You can enjoy being the bad guy and entertaining the dark side of the human psyche without turning into a nazi. In fact I'd argue it's healthier to express that through a video game than bottle it up and express it in the real world. Not everything has a second agenda. Not everything has a hidden meaning.

There's a very valid reason Paradox doesn't put the holocaust in the game and that's it. They don't want hordes of nazis coming to play genocide simulator.

 

[Godwin]

There's a very valid reason Paradox doesn't put the holocaust in the game and that's it. They don't want hordes of nazis coming to play genocide simulator.

Not true. It's not in there so they can sell their games in Germany and the EU where they have strict censorship laws on anything Nazi related. That's also the reason the German flag is a modified kreigsmarine flag instead of the nazi party flag as it was historically.

 

[Nyvis]

Not true. It's not in there so they can sell their games in Germany and the EU where they have strict censorship laws on anything Nazi related. That's also the reason the German flag is a modified kreigsmarine flag instead of the nazi party flag as it was historically.

I'm sure that's also a valid concern, yes. But other game companies have made alternate versions for different markets. In any way, I don't think "genocide simulator" is a valid game that should exist.

 

[Godwin]

I'm sure that's also a valid concern, yes. But other game companies have made alternate versions for different markets. In any way, I don't think "genocide simulator" is a valid game that should exist.

Afaik, paradox has never made alternate versions for different markets and their approach unfortunately is very one size fits all if recent drama related to CK3 is to be believed. Regardless, a national focus showing "hey, your genocide of an entire group of people is fucking up your country" is hardly a genocide simulator. You're creating a false dilemma. This isn't a black and white issue where showing the reality of an atrocity means someone gets to deliberately revel in joy as they watch a slider showing the number of people in a country slowly tick down. This is clicking the button for a national focus, waiting 70 days of in game time and receiving a national spirit with a myriad of negative effects. It's almost like PDX already did that for a country... oh wait it's literally the exact same thing as the Soviet Union's Great Purge focus. Not exactly attracting hordes of Stalinists. You're justifying your argument with both a false dilemma fallacy and a false equivalency fallacy.