Jutland Redux - A summer soltice shootout

[Merrick]

Owwch ... That was a slugfest and a half, with both combatants staggering back to their corners battered bloody.

And it really, really showed what a mistake Scheer made in bringing Mauve's pre-dreadnoughts to the fight. If it hadn't been for that ball and chain, the main body of the High Seas Fleet would likely have got away clean. And if they didn't, Scheer's dreadnoughts were doing well in the match-ups with their British counterparts.
Hipper's battlecruisers - facing a greatly superior force - sank 3 British battlecruisers and lost 3 of their own.
Scheer's dreadnoughts sank one, possibly two British dreadnoughts and lost only one.
The Germans probably came out ahead in cruiser losses as well.
But when the bodies are counted, everything will be dominated by the slaughter of the Fünf Minuten Schiffe at the back of the German line - I don't think a single one got away, so that's seven battleships on the bottom, each taking 800+ crew with them - owwch indeed, and no hope of the Germans painting the battle as a victory.

 

[naraic]

IIRC, standard policy was to begin coaling as soon as ships were back at port even before wounded were off so the crew have got that to look forward to.

Easier for the oil fired ships of course....

I think its same time. Wounded off coal on.

Coal has to be done so people can be given shore leave.

Owwch ... That was a slugfest and a half, with both combatants staggering back to their corners battered bloody.

And it really, really showed what a mistake Scheer made in bringing Mauve's pre-dreadnoughts to the fight. If it hadn't been for that ball and chain, the main body of the High Seas Fleet would likely have got away clean. And if they didn't, Scheer's dreadnoughts were doing well in the match-ups with their British counterparts.
Hipper's battlecruisers - facing a greatly superior force - sank 3 British battlecruisers and lost 3 of their own.
Scheer's dreadnoughts sank one, possibly two British dreadnoughts and lost only one.
The Germans probably came out ahead in cruiser losses as well.
But when the bodies are counted, everything will be dominated by the slaughter of the Fünf Minuten Schiffe at the back of the German line - I don't think a single one got away, so that's seven battleships on the bottom, each taking 800+ crew with them - owwch indeed, and no hope of the Germans painting the battle as a victory.

I think you are correct that in terms of bodies the German deficit will be significant. That said its going to be deaths on the damaged ships and a British advantage in recovery that move the needle.

You say that the Germans came out ahead in cruiser losses. Killing 3 Armoured cruisers is a big contribution to the number of dead but in terms of value it doesn't really count.

In terms of light cruisers I'm pretty sure the Germans lost more. They definitely lost more destroyers.

In terms of big ships (AC PDN DN & BC) I believe its 10 for the Royal Navy and 11 for the Germans. Yes its slightly unfair to count armoured cruisers but they are big ships with large crews.

The other argument about the predreadnoughts is that they were the ships that were doubled. If half the German fleet had to deal with two dreadnoughts each things would have gone differently. Hell Roon stood in the battleline against a battleship until they decided to doge out.

 

[weasel_airlift]

The stokers job was essentially hell, yet it was so vitally important for coal powered ships. I've been on the footplate of a steam train and fed the boiler and that's hot and dirty. Multiply the size of the boiler, make it indoor and in the dark and then you have an idea how hard such a job would be. It's almost inconceivable to people today I reckon.

How is the fuel/stoker situation on the British ships? They've been tooling along at maximum bells for quite a while, and they still have to get home. Iron Duke has a range of about 8000 miles at 10 knots, but at max speed, coal consumption goes up immensely. The Bellerophons have about 2000 miles less range.

German stokers will also be in rough shape, but they are a lot closer to home.

 

[mattep74]

Yes indeed and that formed a large part of the reason Moltke was able to escape.


The stokers job was essentially hell, yet it was so vitally important for coal powered ships. I've been on the footplate of a steam train and fed the boiler and that's hot and dirty. Multiply the size of the boiler, make it indoor and in the dark and then you have an idea how hard such a job would be. It's almost inconceivable to people today I reckon.


Cheers and thanks, fixed.

There is a reason most of the stokers on titanic died. Check out the battle to save titanic on Youtube. They volontered to stay and provide energy for the ship to buy time. Itis estimated that their job gave titanic 30 minutes more.

 

[Julius Vogel]

HMS Warrior is a good visit.

Agreed, I visited a decade ago or so on a Navy Day.

I then learned about 5 years back that my great great grandfather served on the ship as a boy sailor.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I think we can be sure that when the dust settles Jellicoe is going to be raising hell in London about the quality (or lack there of) of the shells being provided to the fleet. He'll rightly claim that the Germans would have lost more ships if the shells were reliable.

 

[PMN1]

I think we can be sure that when the dust settles Jellicoe is going to be raising hell in London about the quality (or lack there of) of the shells being provided to the fleet. He'll rightly claim that the Germans would have lost more ships if the shells were reliable.

Qustion is, how would he know?

Wasn't it German boasting to the Swiss Ambassdor that alerted the RN to the probrlsm after Dogger Bank?

 

[jeandebueil]

I just made a list of german casualties so, both in terms of men and ships (feel free to correct it of course). So far, the HSF has lost:

-BC: Seydlitz, Lutzow, Von der Tann
-B: Kaiserin
-PB: Hessen, Hannover, Preussen, Schleswig-Holstein, Schlesien, Pommern, Deutschland
-CL: Wiesbaden, Regensburg
-Torpedo Boats: G197, G101, G102, B110, B111, V44, G87, S49, B 98, V27, V28, S35, V30, S52 + 6 others unnamed vessels.

-There was also the mention of one CL (Hamburg) and 5 unnamed TBs being crippled and thus likely to be sunk later or having at least suffered significant human losses.

In total the Germans have lost a minimum of 11630 men killed or missing (some captured) in less than 7 hours, more than 4 times what they suffered OTL. And the day isn't over yet...
Even with heavy RN losses, this battle will immediately appear as a resounding strategic success for the British. And if the night favours them, they might be bold enough to qualify it as a tactical one too. Long story short, the Germans have lost, now it is only about limiting the extent of an already gruesome butcher bill.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Qustion is, how would he know?

Wasn't it German boasting to the Swiss Ambassdor that alerted the RN to the probrlsm after Dogger Bank?

There will be a large number of observed hits and straddles that produced no result. Going through the after action reports will bring the problem to light. Now a lot will be put down to wishful thinking or even covering up poor gunnery but the number of reports that are credible will be significant. This was a fight in just about ideal gunnery conditions.

 

[weasel_airlift]

There will be a large number of observed hits and straddles that produced no result. Going through the after action reports will bring the problem to light. Now a lot will be put down to wishful thinking or even covering up poor gunnery but the number of reports that are credible will be significant. This was a fight in just about ideal gunnery conditions.

A hit that doesn't explode in some fashion is likely a hit that is not observed.

 

[Trevayne]

There will be a large number of observed hits and straddles that produced no result. Going through the after action reports will bring the problem to light. Now a lot will be put down to wishful thinking or even covering up poor gunnery but the number of reports that are credible will be significant. This was a fight in just about ideal gunnery conditions.

Question, under these circumstances, how can there be an observed hit that produces no results? The only examples that I can think of are against Kaiserin and any other cripples where the range reached point blank. Firing at over 10 km, presumably one sees shell splashes from misses and explosions from functioning shells that hit. But what indication is there from a shell that hits and doesn't explodes that is visible from more than 10 km?

The only thing that I can think of would be a mast or funnel falling without an explosion. A hole in the hull or superstructure just would not be visible without an explosion. We know that the British shells have been unreliable because we have been told. Jellicoe doesn't have that advantage, although he may be suspicious.

What he could do is try to confirm his suspicions, probably by taking an old pre-dreadnought and expending it as a test target to verify if the Grand Fleets shells are trustworthy. After this battle, he can certainly afford to lose a pre-dreadnought from his force and the crew could be reassigned to more useful ships.

 

[steamboy]

You can count the shell splashes from a salvo or broadside. You fire say 6 guns, see 4 splashes, one red glow from a hit and the shell bursting and nothing else. What happened to shell number 6?

 

[weasel_airlift]

The only thing that I can think of would be a mast or funnel falling without an explosion. A hole in the hull or superstructure just would not be visible without an explosion. We know that the British shells have been unreliable because we have been told. Jellicoe doesn't have that advantage, although he may be suspicious.

An AP shell could do that without being expected to be fused.

You can count the shell splashes from a salvo or broadside. You fire say 6 guns, see 4 splashes, one red glow from a hit and the shell bursting and nothing else. What happened to shell number 6?

Right, but you can have two shells fall close enough that you can't tell them apart, or you can simply not see it. I imagine if there's a hit, you tunnel-vision on that. That's before the potential of multiple ships shooting at one target.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

IIRC Jellicoe was aware of the (lack of) quality of British shells as early as 1910.

 

[RanulfC]

Qustion is, how would he know?

Wasn't it German boasting to the Swiss Ambassador that alerted the RN to the problems after Dogger Bank?

Yelp reviews?
"How would you rate your battle experience?"
"Was there anything the British Fleet could have done to make your experience worse?"


Randy

 

[MarcH]

IIRC Jellicoe was aware of the (lack of) quality of British shells as early as 1910.

Yep, it is one of the really big scandals of WW1 where the RN is concerned that is often overlooked. Had the RN been able to sort out their shells before WW1 then it massively changes the course of the war at sea. For one the Battlecruisers do better at Dogger Bank (despite everything else) that possibly prevents the suicidal magazine practices that makes the Battlecruisers not blow up.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Qustion is, how would he know?

Wasn't it German boasting to the Swiss Ambassdor that alerted the RN to the probrlsm after Dogger Bank?

My understanding was it was the Swedish - the Germans were crowing about the crap British shells

 

[AlanL]

You can count the shell splashes from a salvo or broadside. You fire say 6 guns, see 4 splashes, one red glow from a hit and the shell bursting and nothing else. What happened to shell number 6?

I cannot begin to imagine anybody being able to consistently and accurately do that for hours at a time in the stress, confusion and adrenaline of battle.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I cannot begin to imagine anybody being able to consistently and accurately do that for hours at a time in the stress, confusion and adrenaline of battle.

Except spotting the fall of shot and adjusting the aim is the job of an entire team of gunnery experts on a battleship. It's what they've trained their entire professional lives to do. Actually there's more than one team doing it when you consider the auxiliary spotting top and the gunners in the individual turrets, plus the crews of the secondary guns that will also be observing the shooting of the main battery when they're not engaged themselves.

 

[johnboy]

Owwch ... That was a slugfest and a half, with both combatants staggering back to their corners battered bloody.

And it really, really showed what a mistake Scheer made in bringing Mauve's pre-dreadnoughts to the fight. If it hadn't been for that ball and chain, the main body of the High Seas Fleet would likely have got away clean. And if they didn't, Scheer's dreadnoughts were doing well in the match-ups with their British counterparts.
Hipper's battlecruisers - facing a greatly superior force - sank 3 British battlecruisers and lost 3 of their own.
Scheer's dreadnoughts sank one, possibly two British dreadnoughts and lost only one.
The Germans probably came out ahead in cruiser losses as well.
But when the bodies are counted, everything will be dominated by the slaughter of the Fünf Minuten Schiffe at the back of the German line - I don't think a single one got away, so that's seven battleships on the bottom, each taking 800+ crew with them - owwch indeed, and no hope of the Germans painting the battle as a victory.

In all fairness, many lasted a lot longer than 5 minutes, but, you are correct, it was a disaster, not allowing the main body to potentially accelerate and possibly escape. It increased Jellicoe's speed advantage from 1 knot to 4 knots, essentially.

Of course, the very vulnerability of the ships themselves, with their 3 inch thinner belts than even the Nassau Class and(in the case of the Braunschweig Class ships) older, less effective armour plate.

I think you are correct that in terms of bodies the German deficit will be significant. That said its going to be deaths on the damaged ships and a British advantage in recovery that move the needle.

You say that the Germans came out ahead in cruiser losses. Killing 3 Armoured cruisers is a big contribution to the number of dead but in terms of value it doesn't really count.

In terms of light cruisers I'm pretty sure the Germans lost more. They definitely lost more destroyers.

In terms of big ships (AC PDN DN & BC) I believe its 10 for the Royal Navy and 11 for the Germans. Yes its slightly unfair to count armoured cruisers but they are big ships with large crews.

The other argument about the predreadnoughts is that they were the ships that were doubled. If half the German fleet had to deal with two dreadnoughts each things would have gone differently. Hell Roon stood in the battleline against a battleship until they decided to doge out.

The British have the advantage in terms of casualties, simply based on the fact that they controlled the battlefield, so could pick up survivors. Of course, a few of their ship's exploded, but then did some German pre dreads.