Jutland Redux - A summer soltice shootout

1553 22 June 1916, 35 nautical miles NorthEast of Great Yarmouth

Admiral George Callaghan looked behind at the heavy ships plowing through the seas in the wake of HMS Dreadnought. Eight older battleships and three armoured cruisers, surrounded by a screen of eleven destroyers. Tyrwitt's Harwich force had been sighted astern by lookouts, closing quickly on the larger ships, which were cruising at only 16 knots, awaiting the arrival of smaller force.

It was already quite clear the Germans were not going to enter the Channel. He himself had not been ordered to engage the Germans, yet, with the arrival of Tyrwitt's command, he would have a dreadnought, 8 battleships, 3 armoured cruisers, 6 light cruisers and 40 destroyers under his command. It would be foolish to seek battle with the main German line, yet he could potentially sit astride their retreat, if they arrived back a broken force.

Callghan was naturally a cautious man, yet at the same time his replacement by Jellicoe as C in C Grand Fleet at the commencement of the war certainly rankled. He would proceed with his combined force to Terschelling, informing the Admiralty of his intention, then review the situation form there. He ordered the squadron to 18 knots, knowing full well it would be nearing sunset before his force was off the Ems, longer before he could skirt the minefields and block pasage to the Jade.
If I may once more be so bold as to comment ...
1. It's surprising to read that Adm. Callaghan is exercising command afloat. Yes, he was CinC Nore at the time in question, and yes the 3rd BS (which I presume to be your "heavy ships plowing through the seas") was based at his HQ in Sheerness. But was his a seagoing command? Or rather, wouldn't the VA 3rd BS take seagoing command of this force?
2. Dreadnought was under refit until Jul 1916
3. re "Eight older battleships", NB KEVII was lost (mined) earlier in 1916.

Please take my "passion for detail" as my way of expressing my enthusiasm for your scenario and how it unfolds.
Paul
 
If I may once more be so bold as to comment ...
1. It's surprising to read that Adm. Callaghan is exercising command afloat. Yes, he was CinC Nore at the time in question, and yes the 3rd BS (which I presume to be your "heavy ships plowing through the seas") was based at his HQ in Sheerness. But was his a seagoing command? Or rather, wouldn't the VA 3rd BS take seagoing command of this force?
2. Dreadnought was under refit until Jul 1916
3. re "Eight older battleships", NB KEVII was lost (mined) earlier in 1916.

Please take my "passion for detail" as my way of expressing my enthusiasm for your scenario and how it unfolds.
Paul
Callaghan being at sea is perhaps a str3etch, although he was bitterly disappointed at being replaced as the seagoing commander of the Grand Fleet only 2 years before. So possible I would say.

Dreadnought was finished refit 21st June and was released from Portsmouth 22nd June after a day of harbour trials. That refit was delayed a few days by the aftermath of Jutland, where the placement of the new fire director was altered. That not being the case, she probably would have been released as early as 16 June.

KEVII was lost yes, so the squadron comprises Dreadnought , seven KEVII Class and Swiftsure
 
Thanks for starting this intersting story. May I respectfully make a small number of observations in the interests of strict accuracy?
1. re "X and Y turrets", I understand that Lion's were designated ABQX
2. re "not able to train", why not? Even if the FC circuits were disabled, local control could have been tried. NB RN capital ships used hydraulic not electrical power, for their main armaments at least (Invincible had electrical originally, but removed I think by 1914)
3. re "cutting her firepower by 40%", notwithstanding the above, loss of two turrets would have cut Lion's firepower by 50% (unless I misunderstood and you've allocated "firepower points" to the secondary battery???)
4. re "the range continued to fall, now down to 11,900 meters", very surprising that the BCF had only landed 2 hits (from Invincible) by then. form what I understand of the prevailing POD, the 3rd BCS had carried out its "gunnery exchange program" at Scapa, so its 3 three ships should all be doign better than this (even if the rest of the BCF is "unlucky").

Thanks for kind consideration, and please keep up the good work.
Paul
Cheers, you are correct in virtually all aspects, last was quite poorly written, so have made some changes. Re British gunnery, it was initially quite poor, however, this improved once the initial ranging had been completed, they proved much more adept at keeping fire on a target, although overall, Beatty's ships were poor.
 
1605 22 June 1916 - Princess Roils
1605, 22 June 1916, North Sea, 230 miles from Rosyth

Beatty's head whipped around to the signalman and then toward the stricken ship. "Princess Royal blown up, sir" had been the laconic report. It was all to true. With the range steady at 11,700 to 11,950 meters, hits were being obtained all to readily. He would have thought, with his own ships outnumbering those of the Germans, he would be obtaining more hits on the five enemy heavy ships, yet this was not the case. Yet, for all that, his own formation had some ships that were not damaged at all. The Germans could no longer say that. Lion had been hit six times. Two had not exploded, doing little damage. A third had deflected off Q turret, not penetrating. A fourth had pitched short, ducking under the armour, penetrating a compartment and letting 500 tons of water into the ship, dropping her speed by 1.5 knots. A fifth shell that exploded on the mess deck in the canteen flat, eviscerating many of the men gathered there. Finally, a sixth shell had struck the port 4 inch battery, which the crew extinguished rapidly, thankfully. Australia had been hit twice, Indefatigable four times, Invincible three times. The damage toll on his ships was rising. He was not sure what had happened to Princess Royal.

In fact, Princess Royal had suffered a fate Lion avoided. A hit on the 4 inch magazine had shaken the ship. The after 4-inch battery was smashed out of all recognition. The handling room had spare propellant and this was ignited by the shell burst. The venting plates likely admitted flame into the magazine. This explosion detonated Q turret. Immediately, the ship had a huge explosive cloud above her, taking a large list to port. One of the survivors, asked whether the order to evacuate the magazine and shell room had been given, but was told it was no use, as the water was right up the truck leading from the shell room, so the bottom of the ship must have been out of her. The explosion was followed by clouds of dense and dark smoke, a distinctive byproduct of burning cordite used as shell propellant

Yet, it was not only the British ships that were now taking damage. The two British ships who proved most accurate were HMS Invincible and Queen Mary, the latter free to shoot, not being engaged at all. Queen Mary, however, fired at the wrong target, bringing herself, as well as Lion and Tiger, to bear on the German flagship Lutzow. By 1605, Tiger had still not scored, but Lion had hit the German ship twice, once on the forecastle, the second a hit near the conning tower that did not explode. Sadly, this was a problem the British would face through the battle, shells breaking up on impact. It was not the only problem with the shells, however. The Royal Navy used lyddite as the explosive burster. This, unlike some other explosive compounds, generally exploded on impact, not after a penetration was made. The problems and shortcomings of lyddite were known, but due to shortages of a more effective explosive, such as trinitrotoluene, lyddite continued to be used. Queen Mary had been active. A heavy shell penetrated the main armored deck of Lutzow toward the bow, where there was little armour. Another shell hit a bulkhead even further forward and shoved it back over two meters, both hits letting water into the ship. Shell splinters from another hit penetrated several of the case-mates that held the secondary guns, three of which were disabled. The ammunition stores for these guns were set on fire and the magazines had to be flooded to prevent an explosion.


Derfflinger, the famous "iron dog", was hit twice by Princess Royal before her demise, but both shells broke up on impact. Seydlitz was hit three times, but seemed to shrug these off. Moltke was not so lucky. Hit five times, a shell from New Zealand had hit her port wing turret, jamming the turret traverse completely from the shock. A second had pitched short, flooding the ship with almost 650 tons of seawater. Von Der Tann had been hurt the most. Hit four times by Invincible and twice by Indomitable, a shell from Invincible penetrated the bow turret barbette. Flames flashed into the turret and down into the ammunition chamber. The entire gun crew were killed and flames rose above the turret as high as a house, yet she did not explode, as the magazine was flooded quickly. It was not the only damaging blow. A shell landed near the stern, penetrating the weak armour there and bursting in the port feed tank, breaking the bulkhead and causing flooding and seawater contamination in the port engine room, dropping her speed by over two knots, with flooding unable to be stopped, at least immediately.

It was at 1606 that Beatty received a report that HMS Rivriera had finally launched a Short seaplane and the aircraft was able to communicate with it's mother ship via wireless. This was infinitely more efficient than the last practice exercise, where the wireless had malfunctioned the aircraft had to send it's messages via the seaplane carriers onboard pigeon loft, of all things. Maybe it would help to establish where the Germans actually were.
 
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Note that Jellicoe was described as he only one that could loose the war in an afternoon, not the one that could WIN it in an afternoon. If Grand Fleet is destroyed as a fighting force, and the High Seas Fleet is as well, then the balance of power is mostly the same, except that the United States is now the most powerful navy in the world, which could have interesting butterflies.
If teh Grand Fleet is destroyed, and the High Seas Fleet is not, Britain likely has lost the war, depending on the relative casualties. (Italy can cancel out Austria-Hungary, so the French fleet can redeploy. If Britain has a few dreadnoughts, the French fleet can make a big difference.)
 

Monitor

Donor
1553 22 June 1916, 35 nautical miles NorthEast of Great Yarmouth

Admiral George Callaghan looked behind at the heavy ships plowing through the seas in the wake of HMS Dreadnought. Eight older battleships and three armoured cruisers, surrounded by a screen of eleven destroyers. Tyrwitt's Harwich force had been sighted astern by lookouts, closing quickly on the larger ships, which were cruising at only 16 knots, awaiting the arrival of smaller force.

It was already quite clear the Germans were not going to enter the Channel. He himself had not been ordered to engage the Germans, yet, with the arrival of Tyrwitt's command, he would have a dreadnought, 8 battleships, 3 armoured cruisers, 6 light cruisers and 40 destroyers under his command. It would be foolish to seek battle with the main German line, yet he could potentially sit astride their retreat, if they arrived back a broken force.

Callghan was naturally a cautious man, yet at the same time his replacement by Jellicoe as C in C Grand Fleet at the commencement of the war certainly rankled. He would proceed with his combined force to Terschelling, informing the Admiralty of his intention, then review the situation form there. He ordered the squadron to 18 knots, knowing full well it would be nearing sunset before his force was off

Currently my device is bugging out, Which means I can’t make those quotes smaller. Both are missing threadmarks.

Also, The links in your signature lead to error pages
 
1605, 22 June 1916, North Sea, 230 miles from Rosyth

Beatty's head whipped around to the signalman and then toward the stricken ship. "Princess Royal blown up, sir" had been the laconic report. It was all to true. With the range steady at 11,700 to 11,950 meters, hits were being obtained all to readily. He would have thought, that with his own ships outnumbering those of the Germans, he would be obtaining more hits on the five enemy heavy ships, yet this was not the case. Yet, for all that, his own formation had some ships that were not damaged at all. The Germans could no longer say that. Lion had been hit six more times. Two had not exploded, doing little damage. A third had deflected off Q turret, not penetrating. A fourth had pitched short, ducking under the armour, penetrating a compartment and letting 500 tons of water into the ship, dropping her speed by 1.5 knots. A fifth shell that exploded on the mess deck in the canteen flat, eviscerating many of the men gathered there. Finally, a sixth shell had struck the port 4 inch battery, which the crew extinguished rapidly, thankfully. Australia had been hit twice more, Indefatigable four times, Invincible three times. The damage toll on his ships was rising. He was not sure what had happened to Princess Royal.

In fact, Princess Royal had suffered a fate Lion avoided. A hit on the 4 inch magazine had shaken the ship. The after 4-inch battery was smashed out of all recognition. The handling room had spare propellant and this was ignited by the shell burst. The venting plates likely admitted flame into the magazine. This explosion detonated Q turret. Immediately, the ship displayed a huge explosive cloud above her, taking a large list to port. One of the survivors asked whether the order to evacuate the magazine and shell room had been given, but was told it was no use, as the water was right up the truck leading from the shell room, so the bottom of the ship must have been out of her. The explosion was followed by clouds of dense and dark smoke, a distinctive byproduct of burning cordite shell propellant

Yet it was not only the British ships that were now taking damage. The two British ships who proved most accurate were HMS Invincible and Queen Mary, the latter free to shoot, not being engaged at all. Queen Mary, however, fired at the wrong target, bringing herself, as well as Lion and Tiger, to bear on the German flagship Lutzow. By 1605, Tiger had still not scored, but Lion had hit the German ship twice, once on the forecastle, the second a hit near the conning tower that did not explode. Sadly, this was a problem the British would face through the battle, shells breaking up on impact. It was not the only problem with the shells, however. The Royal Navy used lyddite as the explosive burster. This, unlike some other explosive compounds, generally exploded on impact, not after a penetration was made. The problems and shortcomings of lyddite were known, but due to shortages of a more effective explosive, such as trinitrotoluene, lyddite continued to be used. Queen Mary had been active. A heavy shell penetrated the main armored deck of Lutzow toward the bow, where there was little armour. Another shell hit a bulkhead even further forward and shoved it back over two meters, both hits letting water into the ship. Shell splinters from another hit penetrated several of the case-mates that held the secondary guns, three of which were disabled. The ammunition stores for these guns were set on fire and the magazines had to be flooded to prevent an explosion.


Derfflinger, the famous "iron dog", was hit twice by Princess Royal before her demise, but both shells broke up on impact. Seydlitz was hit three times, but seemed to shrug these off. Moltke was not so lucky. Hit five times, a shell from New Zealand had hit her port wing turret, jamming the turret traverse completely from the shock. A second had pitched short, flooding the ship with almost 650 tons of seawater. Von Der Tann had been hurt the most. Hit four times by Invincible and twice by Indomitable, a shell from Invincible penetrated the bow turret barbette. Flames flashed into the turret and down into the ammunition chamber. The entire gun crew were killed and flames rose above the turret as high as a house, yet she did not explode, as the magazine was flooded quickly. It was not the only damaging blow. A shell landed near the stern, penetrating the weak armour there and bursting in the port feed tank, breaking the bulkhead and causing flooding and seawater contamination in the port engine room, dropping her speed by over two knots, with flooding unable to be stopped immediately.

It was at 1606 that Beatty received a report that HMS Rivriera had finally launched a Short seaplane and the aircraft was able to communicate with it's mother ship via wireless. This was infinitely more efficient than the last practice exercise, where the wireless had malfunctioned the aircraft had to send it's messages via the seaplane carriers onboard pigeon loft, of all things. Maybe it would help to establish where the Germans actually were.
RIP Princess Royal.
 
Currently my device is bugging out, Which means I can’t make those quotes smaller. Both are missing threadmarks.

Also, The links in your signature lead to error pages
Done the thread marks. Yes I will put new links in my signature. Sorry about that. Just started posting up again and I have edited and republished my previous work to fix grammar mainly.
 
Just as when asked who I vote for I will not reveal my preferences so as to enjoy a richer debate with all sides so I will let JohnBoy's story unfold.;)

I do however think that Jellicoe is an underappreciated admiral overshadowed by Beatty's flashiness and attempts to control/rewrite history. He can be criticised for his caution and over centralised control however he kept a clear eye on the overall strategy of blockade and was trying to operate a massive battlefleet with a communications system not much advanced from Trafalgar. His deployment decision based on limited and imprecise communications from the failure of Beatty's scouting (Goodenough is honourable exception) was masterful. The ignoring of intelligence from Room 40 was unfortunate but reflects as much on Admiralty control and intelligence handling as it does Jellicoe.

More importantly however I would like to wish everyone on this Board a happy Trafalgar day and hope and expect that all members will be saluting the immortal memory wherever they are today!
[OT] It's also the anniversary of the Dogger Bank incident in 1904, a fertile source of alternatives.
 
. re "X and Y turrets", I understand that Lion's were designated ABQX
I think it was standard RN practice to designate midships centreline turrets as "Q". Even Tiger's third from forward was thus labelled, despite it being aft of the funnels.
 
I think it was standard RN practice to designate midships centreline turrets as "Q". Even Tiger's third from forward was thus labelled, despite it being aft of the funnels.
IIRC during the design process at one point the Funnels were going to be behind Q turret (As it was in Lion) However, this was changed to allow Q turret to fire over the stern.
 
Apparently the influence of Kongo, designed and built at Vickers.
Maybe. David Brown wrote this in "The Grand Fleet":
1635256077147.png
 
Excellent bit of a timeline so far, looking forward to see where it goes. One bit of feedback though;

This was not enforced in other ships, again due to a manna for more speed of loading. Ammunition stockpiling outside the magazines was another dangerous practice that had become common, despite the almost loss of the cruiser Kent at Falkland Islands in 1914. It was officially banned by the Admiralty, but widely condoned, especially by Beatty.
This seems to be a common statement but I've never actually seen anything to collaborate this. Beatty did indeed wish for the battlecruisers to increase their rate of fire in combat however, I have seen zero evidence to say that Beatty specifically delegated to his Captains or gunnery officers that he wished them to circumvent ammunition handling procedures to do such a thing. From what I understand, Beatty gave the non-specific order down from on high to improve rate of fire and little more, he did not personally order the flash protection removed and ammunition stacked in turret spaces.
 
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