Justinian's conquest of Italy lasts longer

if they would hellenize and become cristians they would be a good source of recruits for the byzantine armies. it could be that the byzantines start to adapt turkish warfare
 

trajen777

Banned
I think the key thing to remember is that the Muslim / Arab explosion was really pretty small invasion numbers (Egypt was originally invaded by an army of 6,000). The strength of Byzantium would have been enhanced by
  • Lack of Plague
  • Quick conquest of Italy (had been accomplished until Plague devastated the population of the entire Byz empire)
  • Self financed Italy is able to support its own defenses with surplus resources sent to the rest of Byzantium empire
  • Profitable Africa
  • Pretty decent emperors (except Justinian’s son) up till overthrow of Maurice
  • A stronger economy supports Maurices army who is not overthrown
  • Maurice not being overthrown does not end in civil war and dragged out war with Persia
  • The power that held the key fortress cities basically retained power – such as Dara etc.
  • The population / generation which grew up an Roman Syria and Egypt under Persian rule would have been more Roman and supportive
  • The Arab thrust, if happening at all, would have been deflected or defeated
  • The question of who would overthrow the Byzantine Empire?
    • Franks? Pretty friendly terms with Byzantium
    • Turks? With resources of Italy, Africa, Mid East behind them they Byzantines would have been much stronger?
    • Mongols? Would you have another Baybars type of defeat?
    • My guess is the Mongols – but only on a limited basis
 
Respect to the probabilities of a different kind of religion in Arabia or kind of Islam, it is highly probable, even Mahoma almost gave his acceptance to some kind of politeism when initially in the initial sura 53 in a first revelation by Gabriel was said: " I look another time the angel Gabriel -near of the tree that is at the limit of the Paradise....- What do you think about Al-Lat and Al-Ozza- and also of Manat?- They are high females- to which you can demand intercession" but unfortunately for this three femenine spirits Mahoma had another revelation in which the angel Gabriel said all the contrary (in fact IIRC this is the cause of the title of the Book of Salman Rushdie "Satanic verses" the initial sura 53 that aproved the adoration of the three femenine spirits were considered a manouver of Satan to confund Mahoma).

But what if all these events including a stronger Byzantium could made more interesting play for Mahoma (or the ATL person who rises as prophet or profetise) the cards of conciliation to the arab tribal idolatry or if you preferes Gabriel decides to not change opinion: so we would have an Islam with Allah as only god but with Al-Lat, Al-Ozza and Manat as high spirits, this would mean that this ATL islam would be a monoteism politeistic (only one God but with High Spirits as sub-gods, in this case sub-goddess)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Let’s say that instead of winning an overwhelming victory against the Gepids in the Battle of Asfeld, the Lombard’s suffer a Pyrrhic victory instead, and are either vassalized by the incoming Avars or flee disorganized into Italy in greatly reduced numbers. Though the Empire is in a weakened position regarding Italy due to the effects of the plague, the devastation of the peninsula due to the Gothic Wars and the lack of wealth in the treasury, the Lombard’s are now in no position to seize control of two thirds of the Italy. Perhaps this would give the Empire the time necessary to consolidate its position in the region, however, Italy is fertile and a tempting target for any migrating tribe.

What about a Gepid victory instead? The Gepids position was much stronger against nomads as the Avars (more mountainous) and if they lose they will be driven East and south into Romania instead of west into the Po valley.
 
Well actually, the strenght of the Arabs during that period is often overestimated; even in OTL, it took the political-religious unifying factor of Islam and an extremely devastating war between Persia and Byzantium that had conveniently ended just before Islam arose for the Arabs to succeed in dominating the Middle East.

Without either of those two factors, the expansion of the Arabs would either be significantly less successful than it was in OTL, or it would even fail completely.

..
Also keep in mind that there is no need for Arabia to become properly unified, ever.
Just because it happened in OTL, doesn't mean that it's bound to happen.
There is much evidence for population growth in pre-Islamic Arabia, and this may be one of the major reasons there was so much movement during this time period. Now, I do agree with you that the rapid early expansion of Islam came partially as a result of Roman and Persian weakness and partially due to the unifying factor of Islam; however, we don’t know that the expansion would necessarily fail or be significantly less without these two factors. To say so is utterly narrow-minded, for you eliminate any other possibilities, which could contribute to early Muslim success. Also, I am well aware that just because things happened in our timeline, they are not inevitable, hence the reason I participate on this board.

Ah, there's the all too common misconception that the Arabs didn't venture out of the Peninsula until the rise of Islam!

Arab tribes had already started migrating into Syria and Mesopotamia centuries before the rise of Islam, and some of the more powerful Arab tribes and tribal confederations carved out their own kingdoms in these areas.

The two most powerful pre-Islamic Arab states in this area were the Ghassanid kingdom in southern Syria, which was a vassal state of Byzantium, and the Lakhmid kingdom in southern Mesopotamia, which was a vassal of the Persians. To my knowledge, both kingdoms had been founded in the 4th century, or perhaps even as early as the late 3rd century.

And there had already been earlier Arab migrations in this area, and some of them took place a few centuries before Christ...

Before Islam, the Arabs migrated northwards as individual tribes, or at best tribal confederations, which was a result of the utter lack of political unity in Arabia - and in a scenario/TL without Islam, this will propably remain the same.

And those individual tribes will propably drift into Byzantine or Persian spheres of influence, just like they did in OTL prior to Islam.
I assumed when I stated “expansion,” it would be recognized as referring to the Islamic Arabian expansion. Alas! I was wrong, and for that I apologize. I am well aware of the fact that the Arabians had begun migrating out of Arabia centuries before the period being discussed, and of the importance of the Ghassanid and Lakhmid kingdoms. Of course the Arabians would not be completely isolated from that corner of the world, and they had, I believe, been used as mercenaries by the Romans and Persians for a long time already. From a political standpoint, however, the Islamic expansion was far more significant (territorially and in terms of its effects on the surrounding nations), than these smaller, earlier waves.

Now, just because I was making the suggestion that Arabia could be united by some other means than Islam, doesn’t mean I believe that this must be the case. The tribes are still likely to continue migrating as you stated, however, this does not mean that Arabia will definitely not eventually unify. Religious influence could play a role as could shifts in the balance of power in this region.

What about a Gepid victory instead? The Gepids position was much stronger against nomads as the Avars (more mountainous) and if they lose they will be driven East and south into Romania instead of west into the Po valley.

An equally valid possibility. I originally suggested a Gepid defeat because of the number of forces aligned against them (the Lombards, the Avars and the Byzantines), however, I’m sure that circumstances could be altered so that they could be made to win too.
 
In my view, no matter what eventually unites the Arabs in ATL, they would still succeed in capturing Egypt, the Levant, and North Africa. The Arab invasions in OTL weren't successful because of superior numbers or martial skill (they had 6,000 men as was said earlier), but by Egypt's population shifting its loyalties. It was the intense taxation and conflict between the Christian sects - things that appeared to be core Byzantine values really until its final fall, and I don't see these things changing.
 
In my view, no matter what eventually unites the Arabs in ATL, they would still succeed in capturing Egypt, the Levant, and North Africa. The Arab invasions in OTL weren't successful because of superior numbers or martial skill (they had 6,000 men as was said earlier), but by Egypt's population shifting its loyalties. It was the intense taxation and conflict between the Christian sects - things that appeared to be core Byzantine values really until its final fall, and I don't see these things changing.
Even if Arabia unites under different circumstances from OTL the result could be anything. The Arabs had a nearly perfect environment for expansion two exhausted empires for neighbors whose provinces that bordered theirs that were filled with an over taxed and persecuted minority population. Adjust circumstances leading up to the Arab explosion in Byzantines favor a bit and I think they could have come out on top. Even in the they succeed just as well in this time line if the conquest has a different enough feel to it the long term implications will likely be drastic if for example it doesn’t have the religious focus ours did which provided a great deal of unity post conquest Egypt may never see itself as Arab if they don’t have that connection.
 
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