June 3rd, 1936, Hermann bites the dust...

Deleted member 1487

Yes, but before that Blohm und Voss presented the Ha-137 entered the contest and that was the aircraft Richtofen wanted. It was disqualified for entering late/too many jews/I want the Stuka and nothing else reasons, after all, the final specs were pretty much copied from Junkers proposal in order to ensure a Ju-87 win. Funny that the other allowed entry could not hope to reach the Ju-87s dive angles, and Heinkel had so indicated so from the start...
Personally I think the Hs123 was the best bet for the LW for a CAS aircraft until the Ju87G and Hs129 showed up (and all were replaced by the FW190F/G). I don't know enough about the situation to categorically state that the Ha-137 would have ever been produced ITTL once the He-118 shows up. I think it could have been an early CAS aircraft and is thus removed from the dive bombing category, so there would still be a dive bomber, which the Ha-137 would not be.
But again then the Ha-137 would have to compete with the Hs123, which is stiff competition once combat experienced showed the capabilities of the Hs123 in Spain.



I got the infor from Griehl's book, he indicated that the companies were informed on June 3rd that the aircraft was to dive bomb, now, it doesnt specify, but Udet has a history of going directly to the companies and specify requirements different to those of the RLM specs (pp. 8). The list of engines the book mentions only includes the DB-601 as Daimler's entry.
Me too. The aircraft was to be able to handle medium dives from the very inception of the Bomber A requirement issued under Wever, so that's not going to change one iota. Instead what is being fixed is Udet not coming in in late 1937 and asking for deep dive capabilities. So the He-177 design team gravitated toward to the start to the two propellor design for a variety of reasons based on the original, pre-Udet spec. Though the DB606 wasn't given as an option the project demanded it so were allowed to have it. Supposedly Heinkel had misgivings about the two prop design and asked for a four prop prototype just in case, but Heinkel is the only source for that claim, so I don't take that at face value, as there is no corroborating evidence for that.

The issue then is the problems with the two prop still remaining, but the question is whether the Technical Branch would demand a four prop version sooner (there was no indication of problems with the DB606 in pre-clearance testing for the design) than IOTL, which I think it very likely, but it pushes back development.

True, but it is to be expected to have a different behavior if you change the wing, but if the aircraft is projected with a 4-engine wing from the start the issues should be less severe and without the constant interference of the engines problems testing should be a lot less protracted affair than ITTL.
The problem is that the HE177 was conceived as a two prop design from the beginning based on the Bomber A spec given by Wever; its worth wondering if the Wimmer-led Technical Branch would have accepted the concept during development, as that was mostly during Udet's tenure, but it seems the officer supervising the project was a hold over from the Wimmer era, which means that the design slips in and continues as a two prop-er until it proves a failure in testing (pretty much the exact same situation as the Avro Lancaster). Its just a question of how quickly the solution is arrived at (abandoning the twin prop idea).

There was a 1 month difference between the He-177 B-5 V101 and V102 (single and twin rudder) prototypes, and the test pilots were happy with the behaviour of V102 (as a matter of fact V103 reached 700Kmh in inclined flights) but, there were only 4 more months for trials before they were destroyed in raids.
Yes, but after years of development and experience with the He177 frame. So saying that the quickness of the problems being recognized in 1939 is comparable to 1943-44 is neglecting all of the work done and experience gained IOTL from 1939-1943 when the twin tail rudder appeared.

Now the French kept and operated the 2 He-274 prototypes for 8 years so the twin fin arrangement must have worked fine for them, with a little more time (2 months is really nothing) the stability problems would have been overcome, and I seriously doubt that it would take a full 2 years to do so being the only major issue of the aircraft.
Sure it was the right fix for the airframe, the problem is whether that solution will be reached in two years and properly tested by 1942. IOTL the twin tail arrangement was only reached after years were wasted trying to fix the single rudder trail.


It works out, as a matter of fact in 1938 IIRC it was considered to drop the 15cm guns and replace them with further 10,5cm flak, it turned out to be impractical due to the angles and the issue was dropped, but if the guns end up being needed I see the KM having no problems in just letting them go and complete the carrier without them.
Why do you see that? They didn't IOTL and were generally pretty backwards on naval matters.


Its demise was related to the constant issues with the LW, its air group squadrons were taken away as soon as the war started and Raeder probably didnt expect to see them any time soon, if ever. Plus the fire control system was sold to the URSS. In the end the complicated marriage with the LW made the availability of aircraft unlikely so if anything had to go GZ was the candidate in spite of being 90% complete.

Which is crazy.
The problem was not just with the air group. I still think even with them available there was just no reason to have a carrier of such a poor design (relative to every other major naval power) when there are now continental airbases that surround Britain, bases that need to be defended and can be used to attack Britain directly. The Graf Zeppelin was meant to be a test bed for future designs and Raeder never really knew what to do with it, just that all the other navies had them, so he should have one too and figure out what to do with it later (or leave that job to his successor). Frankly there is no reason for the KM to have one given that their designs were on controlling the North Sea. Once the Fall of France and Norway happened, then the surface fleet lost its purpose and was shoe-horned into new roles for which they were not designed...for example commerce raiding in the Atlantic. The Bismarck-class Battleships were not designed for Atlantic service, nor were the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau. All had to be refitted with Atlantic bows after their commissioning. So the Graf Zeppelin also was not designed to serve in the Atlantic, which was recognized by the KM, so it was generally considered a waste now that they had the North Sea to spend money and resources on finishing the vessel, which was to them a luxury and unnecessary.

Would the Hs 129 see more exposure and success in this timeline?

Maybe?
 

Artatochor

Banned
Once the Fall of France and Norway happened, then the surface fleet lost its purpose and was shoe-horned into new roles for which they were not designed...for example commerce raiding in the Atlantic. The Bismarck-class Battleships were not designed for Atlantic service, nor were the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau.

am I misreading your post, or are you thinking Kriegsmarine should've been made much smaller?
 

Deleted member 1487

am I misreading your post, or are you thinking Kriegsmarine should've been made much smaller?

The surface fleet was not designed for what its mission ended up being, so should have been designed differently. They actually needed to be bigger, but differently focused. Raeder, while a brilliant guy in many ways, had some profound misunderstandings of modern naval warfare and was locked into a pre-aviation mindset. Of course its easy for me to say that given the hindsight that I have of what ended up happening, but Raeder was still stuck in the big surface fleet, pre-WW1 Tirpitzian mindset that badly positioned the KM when the war started. In many ways it almost seems like he thought about the Navy as a fleet with a nation, so expected Germany to fulfill the fleet's prerogatives rather than considering Germany's naval needs and building to that end.
Just looking at the mess with the Torpedo Department shows that he didn't even worry about non-big gun matters, letting rot fester in the corners of the KM.
 

Artatochor

Banned
There weren't many carrier proponents in the Kriegsmarine, AFAIK. So I believe it was destined to be either a surface force, or a mere commerce raider force. The absence of Göring could help with naval bombers, though. An earlier and better Fw-200?
 

Deleted member 1487

There weren't many carrier proponents in the Kriegsmarine, AFAIK.
Germany really didn't need any, being primarily a land power without colonies.

So I believe it was destined to be either a surface force, or a mere commerce raider force.
It really didn't need anything beyond a coastal defense force unless it planned on fighting Britain; if it planned on that, then it needed Uboats and a smaller surface fleet to supplement that effort.

The absence of Göring could help with naval bombers, though.
It had some, the HE111, which was used effectively in that role in 1939 and 1940. The problem is establishing a torpedo bombing force, which was the fault of Raeder, as the KM wouldn't give the LW any of theirs and none they had actually worked.

An earlier and better Fw-200?
Can't be any earlier than it was, because it wasn't designed until 1937. Germany wasn't planning on fighting Britain until Fall 1938. Plus with commitments in Spain the LW or KM weren't in a position to establish a special naval bomber Geschwader around the HE111 until mid-1939. Existing assets were more than able to handle patrolling the North Sea to areas that mattered to Germany, so when the Atlantic opened as a theater Germany was totally unprepared, because no one thought that level of success was even possible. So it would require massive hindsight to have a long range naval bomber ready in 1940. The FW200 wasn't really that good in that role until 1942, by which time the moment had passed and there were better aircraft available like the Ju290.
 

JAG88

Banned
Personally I think the Hs123 was the best bet for the LW for a CAS aircraft until the Ju87G and Hs129 showed up (and all were replaced by the FW190F/G). I don't know enough about the situation to categorically state that the Ha-137 would have ever been produced ITTL once the He-118 shows up. I think it could have been an early CAS aircraft and is thus removed from the dive bombing category, so there would still be a dive bomber, which the Ha-137 would not be.
But again then the Ha-137 would have to compete with the Hs123, which is stiff competition once combat experienced showed the capabilities of the Hs123 in Spain.

Actually with Udet gone I would expect the Ju-87 to die, as it was Richtofen had it cancelled and only Udet's intervention saved it. Without him, either the Ha-137 (Richtofen's favorite) or Hs-123 would have replaced it, to better effect IMHO.

The He-118 was a nice aircraft but far too fragile compared to how rugged and tough the 123 and 137 were, it would have been a good choice for a CAS aircraft, plus, it used a DB 600 series, a big no-no from the production and survivability points of view. In addition o that the "heavy stuka" spec was pretty much made to fit the stuka, so Udet's death would likely kill not only the plane but the spec, with the single seat or light stuka as the only CAS plane.

Me too. The aircraft was to be able to handle medium dives from the very inception of the Bomber A requirement issued under Wever, so that's not going to change one iota. Instead what is being fixed is Udet not coming in in late 1937 and asking for deep dive capabilities. So the He-177 design team gravitated toward to the start to the two propellor design for a variety of reasons based on the original, pre-Udet spec. Though the DB606 wasn't given as an option the project demanded it so were allowed to have it. Supposedly Heinkel had misgivings about the two prop design and asked for a four prop prototype just in case, but Heinkel is the only source for that claim, so I don't take that at face value, as there is no corroborating evidence for that.

Yeah, Ive always found Heinkel's claims a bit suspect, he was always being "robbed" (He-100, 112, 219, 280, etc...) and a good deal of the He-177s problems were worsened by the way Heinkel fitted the engines to the aircraft, but in this case I tend to give him some credibility since the engines had trouble from the start (save from the prototypes for the He-119), it would have made sense to have an alternative just in case or, as I would expect, if the DKM had a stake in the project had the Greif been conceived as maritime reconnaissance bomber as well.

The issue then is the problems with the two prop still remaining, but the question is whether the Technical Branch would demand a four prop version sooner (there was no indication of problems with the DB606 in pre-clearance testing for the design) than IOTL, which I think it very likely, but it pushes back development.

True.

Yes, but after years of development and experience with the He177 frame. So saying that the quickness of the problems being recognized in 1939 is comparable to 1943-44 is neglecting all of the work done and experience gained IOTL from 1939-1943 when the twin tail rudder appeared.

Are you sure the Greif had problems with the single fin? I was under the impression this appeared (or at least only became relevant) when the new larger 4-engine wing was added.

Sure it was the right fix for the airframe, the problem is whether that solution will be reached in two years and properly tested by 1942. IOTL the twin tail arrangement was only reached after years were wasted trying to fix the single rudder trail.

I wanted to address the first flight date as well, without the redesign required by Udet's request the first flight should take place earlier.

Why do you see that? They didn't IOTL and were generally pretty backwards on naval matters.

Look at it from the KM perspective, they have had to fight the LW tooth and nail for every detail in the project, they even had to agree to have LW personnel berthed in a separate section away from the DKM personnel, they had to accept a 2m separation between aircraft and hangar walls making floor use wildly inefficient, the LW ordered the Fi-167 only after long delays even after recognizing that the aircraft was perfect... and by 1940 the LW had taken away the carrier units it had constituted and there was no way in hell Göring was going to give them back so, when there was need for coastal guns they went, as did its fire control system to the Russians, so when time came to what to sacrifice in order to build the subs the DKM needed the decision had been made long ago.

Now, if the inmates dont take over the LW asylum then I believe the GZ project would have a different fate, it would be simply crazy to scrap a carrier that would be pretty much ready and with its airgroup trained and waiting to be embarked. Even as a single raider or as a part of a raiding force its effect would be significant, not to mention the aistance it could offer to the Uboats as a recce asset.

The problem was not just with the air group. I still think even with them available there was just no reason to have a carrier of such a poor design (relative to every other major naval power) when there are now continental airbases that surround Britain, bases that need to be defended and can be used to attack Britain directly. The Graf Zeppelin was meant to be a test bed for future designs and Raeder never really knew what to do with it, just that all the other navies had them, so he should have one too and figure out what to do with it later (or leave that job to his successor). Frankly there is no reason for the KM to have one given that their designs were on controlling the North Sea. Once the Fall of France and Norway happened, then the surface fleet lost its purpose and was shoe-horned into new roles for which they were not designed...for example commerce raiding in the Atlantic. The Bismarck-class Battleships were not designed for Atlantic service, nor were the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau. All had to be refitted with Atlantic bows after their commissioning. So the Graf Zeppelin also was not designed to serve in the Atlantic, which was recognized by the KM, so it was generally considered a waste now that they had the North Sea to spend money and resources on finishing the vessel, which was to them a luxury and unnecessary.
There were defects in its design, the horizaontal armour being the most damning, but by simply making a logical use of the hangar space you would already have a carrier more capable than most of the RN ones.

They designed a fleet to face the French so BBs and CVs made sense, they were intended to be used in anti-ship missions as the mine and torpedo magazines were proportionally far larger than in any other navy, it carried twice the number of TT than any other carrier, and that is without using the space allocated for mines which could be used. Oddly enough the Atlantic bow did not have much to do with the Atlantic, but with the fact that the ships were extremely wet forward... in any sea.

Btw Im reading your Moltke thread,pretty interesting, I have a couple ideas in that area. I will port them later.
 
Would the Hs 129 see more exposure and success in this timeline?

The Hs 129 was developed in response to a requirement for a close support aircraft which used "unimportant" engines. The Hs 129A with Argus engines was woefully underpowered, the Hs 129B with Gnome-Rhone engines was better but was still somewhat underpowered.

The Hs 129 was limited by the LW's obsession with guns as anti-tank weapons, even to the extent of fitting a modified PaK-40 to the B3 variant. It would have been much smarter to follow the Russians and the Western Allies in the use of rocket projectiles.

On another issue that hasn't been canvassed so far:

Would Erhard Milch survive as head of the RLM or as Inspector General of the Luftwaffe under Wever? Milch seemed to spend more time getting even with perceived political rivals than doing his job. Milch seemed to have issues with most of the major aircraft manufacturers at different times.

Regards,

Charlie
 
I've always been under the impression that Goering was extremely jealous to have anything to do with aviation under his command. If he had not been in the picture, might they have made the CAG crews be KM personnel, and done away with all LW regulations and impediments?

Don't forget, there were actually two carriers under construction.

If the capitol ships of the KM could have been bunched together into a single fleet with carrier support, they could have done some serious damage out in the Atlantic by 1943. This assumes no loss of the Bismarck.

Now if your POD could include the loss of Raeder too, replaced with someone like Doenitz, some additional interesting things could happen.
 

Artatochor

Banned
Now, if the inmates dont take over the LW asylum then I believe the GZ project would have a different fate, it would be simply crazy to scrap a carrier that would be pretty much ready and with its airgroup trained and waiting to be embarked. Even as a single raider or as a part of a raiding force its effect would be significant, not to mention the aistance it could offer to the Uboats as a recce asset.
This idea is very intriguing. What if the GZ was primarily designated to be a submarine target recon hub? I think it's the only way Dönitz would have allowed it to exist, if he were the head of KM, instead of Raeder.
 

JAG88

Banned
I've always been under the impression that Goering was extremely jealous to have anything to do with aviation under his command. If he had not been in the picture, might they have made the CAG crews be KM personnel, and done away with all LW regulations and impediments?

Very likely, which is I believe the GZ could have ended carrying 70 aircraft, after all it had pretty much the same hangar area as Ark Royal.

Don't forget, there were actually two carriers under construction.

If the capitol ships of the KM could have been bunched together into a single fleet with carrier support, they could have done some serious damage out in the Atlantic by 1943. This assumes no loss of the Bismarck.

Not a good idea, a big fleet is easier to find and the RN would mass against it and find it, it would be too tempting a target. Plus the Germans would be unable to support such an operation.

Now if your POD could include the loss of Raeder too, replaced with someone like Doenitz, some additional interesting things could happen.

Heh, originally the aircraft was to fall on Raeder's boat! :D
 

JAG88

Banned
This idea is very intriguing. What if the GZ was primarily designated to be a submarine target recon hub? I think it's the only way Dönitz would have allowed it to exist, if he were the head of KM, instead of Raeder.

I think that alone might not justify a carrier on itself, a supply sub and diesel powered flying boats would have done the trick as well. In any case the Brits were truly worried about GZ, here is what they were thinking in 1940:

“It is the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, which is likely to provide our most disagreeable problem. If this ship, accompanied by Bismarck or one of the Scharnhorsts (the Scharnhorst and her sister ship, the Gneisenau), were to break out, we should have to be prepared for very serious depredations on our trade. In good weather, the aircraft carrier could reconnoitre some 20,000 square miles in one day and could hardly fail to locate some of our large convoys. Her reconnaissance would serve equally to defend the attackers from our hunting groups. This power of evasion might enable raids to be pressed to the Western Approaches, our most vulnerable area. The conclusion is that the Bismarck herself is not likely to prove the menace that would at first seem likely. It is the aircraft carrier which is going to turn the scales in favour of any raider.”
 
JAG, it does seem to me, that if the KM were truly intent on relying mainly on their U-boats for their commerce raiding strategy, then GZ's biggest value would have been accompanying the wolf packs (from a distance) and providing both reconnaissance AND air support. One of the biggest problems the U-boats faced was from being attacked by aircraft-- both land-based, such as the Sunderlands, Catalinas, and Liberators, --and sea based, such as the escort carriers and the CAM fighters. Also, the naval escorts grew to be troublesome for the U-boats, too. Friendly carrier aircraft keeping the escorts busy would make it easier for the U-boats to move in and attack the convoys. A carrier in the vicinity would also be able to use fighters to escort land-based bombers, such as Fw 200's or Ju 290's, into range to deploy their air-to-surface missiles. The heavies otherwise would have to face harassment from the CAM fighters and escort carrier fighters.

Being able to fight back against the Allies' air and sea escorts protecting the convoys, I think, would be one of the CV's greatest abilities.
 
Also, thinking ahead a little later, I have always imagined (with no historical literature to back it up) that if the GZ and the other carrier had made it into action and survived, and if the war was going fairly well for the Axis, they could have converted some merchant ships into ad hoc carriers, or built more from the hull up. I have always imagined around early 1944, the introduction of the Fw 190T series to replace the Bf 109T. The wide track landing gear would be beefed up, and the carrier's compliment would be equipped entirely with the Fw 190T as it would take on the roles of fighter, night fighter, surface strike (rockets and/or torpedo), dive bomber, and reconnaissance. If you look at the shore-based Fw 190 series, you will see that they were modified for all these same roles as well. The advantage on board a carrier would be parts and maintenance commonality. All a/c would have the same basic parts, with just minor modifications for their specific tasks. Every pilot would be capable of flying every aircraft on board, and perhaps most importantly, in a pinch, every single aircraft could be used effectively as a fighter.

I imagine the Fw 190T to use the BMW radial, and to have a base armament of the twin 13mm above the engine along with twin MG 151/50 outside of the landing gear and wing fold. The inner wing guns carried by land-based 190's would be deleted in the interest of additional fuel storage. The wings would fold upward outside the landing gear, a la Corsair. The redesigned wing would be slightly longer for more area, and have a bent toward extra fuel tankage. I see a base range of around 7-800 miles for the Fw 190T, a max speed of around 385 mph (depending on configuration), and a ceiling and rate of climb slightly less than its land-based contemporaries, since the emphasis would be on combat below 20,000 ft.

Just a pipe dream, but in my scenarios, it is one of my pet projects.
 

Artatochor

Banned
I think that alone might not justify a carrier on itself, a supply sub and diesel powered flying boats would have done the trick as well. In any case the Brits were truly worried about GZ, here is what they were thinking in 1940:

“It is the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, which is likely to provide our most disagreeable problem. If this ship, accompanied by Bismarck or one of the Scharnhorsts (the Scharnhorst and her sister ship, the Gneisenau), were to break out, we should have to be prepared for very serious depredations on our trade. In good weather, the aircraft carrier could reconnoitre some 20,000 square miles in one day and could hardly fail to locate some of our large convoys. Her reconnaissance would serve equally to defend the attackers from our hunting groups. This power of evasion might enable raids to be pressed to the Western Approaches, our most vulnerable area. The conclusion is that the Bismarck herself is not likely to prove the menace that would at first seem likely. It is the aircraft carrier which is going to turn the scales in favour of any raider.”
That is what I was talking about. A big recon plane hub. I don't know which admiral would be interested in having the GZ get a bigger role.
 

JAG88

Banned
JAG, it does seem to me, that if the KM were truly intent on relying mainly on their U-boats for their commerce raiding strategy, then GZ's biggest value would have been accompanying the wolf packs (from a distance) and providing both reconnaissance AND air support. One of the biggest problems the U-boats faced was from being attacked by aircraft-- both land-based, such as the Sunderlands, Catalinas, and Liberators, --and sea based, such as the escort carriers and the CAM fighters. Also, the naval escorts grew to be troublesome for the U-boats, too. Friendly carrier aircraft keeping the escorts busy would make it easier for the U-boats to move in and attack the convoys. A carrier in the vicinity would also be able to use fighters to escort land-based bombers, such as Fw 200's or Ju 290's, into range to deploy their air-to-surface missiles. The heavies otherwise would have to face harassment from the CAM fighters and escort carrier fighters.

Being able to fight back against the Allies' air and sea escorts protecting the convoys, I think, would be one of the CV's greatest abilities.

Well, too many radio emissions are always a bad idea, and the GZ would be a hammer by itself able to wipe out any convoy without assistance, but the Uboats would be useful to sink any leftovers once the convoys disperses to escape plus it would allow more boats to find and reach the convoy.

Here is how I see it could have gone with a bit more love for the CVs:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=273862
 

JAG88

Banned
Also, thinking ahead a little later, I have always imagined (with no historical literature to back it up) that if the GZ and the other carrier had made it into action and survived, and if the war was going fairly well for the Axis, they could have converted some merchant ships into ad hoc carriers, or built more from the hull up. I have always imagined around early 1944, the introduction of the Fw 190T series to replace the Bf 109T. The wide track landing gear would be beefed up, and the carrier's compliment would be equipped entirely with the Fw 190T as it would take on the roles of fighter, night fighter, surface strike (rockets and/or torpedo), dive bomber, and reconnaissance. If you look at the shore-based Fw 190 series, you will see that they were modified for all these same roles as well. The advantage on board a carrier would be parts and maintenance commonality. All a/c would have the same basic parts, with just minor modifications for their specific tasks. Every pilot would be capable of flying every aircraft on board, and perhaps most importantly, in a pinch, every single aircraft could be used effectively as a fighter.

I imagine the Fw 190T to use the BMW radial, and to have a base armament of the twin 13mm above the engine along with twin MG 151/50 outside of the landing gear and wing fold. The inner wing guns carried by land-based 190's would be deleted in the interest of additional fuel storage. The wings would fold upward outside the landing gear, a la Corsair. The redesigned wing would be slightly longer for more area, and have a bent toward extra fuel tankage. I see a base range of around 7-800 miles for the Fw 190T, a max speed of around 385 mph (depending on configuration), and a ceiling and rate of climb slightly less than its land-based contemporaries, since the emphasis would be on combat below 20,000 ft.

Just a pipe dream, but in my scenarios, it is one of my pet projects.

Heh, my thought as well, but the Fw-190 would still need a lot of tinkering to get ready, it had a too high landing speed for a carrier so it would need a new wing and that takes time.

What you are basically describing is this:

17663d1131412755-sunnys-vids-photos-fw190g_732.jpg


A Fw-190G, and this guy could take that 500Kg bomb for 1500Km in that configuration. The torpedo versions were just prototypes, sadly.

GZ could have easily taken 81 of these as its air group.
 

JAG88

Banned
That is what I was talking about. A big recon plane hub. I don't know which admiral would be interested in having the GZ get a bigger role.

Well, IOTL it had an attack role, which is why it had so many torpedoes and torpedo planes, it carried 20 compared to just 13 Stukas, but the recon role alone would have been a major boost to the KM operations.
 
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