Jumo 222 available on time

Supposing Jumo engineers can get the Jumo 222 Series II mass produced in 1940 what impact does this have on the war? Does the technology get shared with Japan and if so does it result in any significant changes?
 
At work.

Wasn't the 222 the basis for a 'Small' seven stage turbine developed late by the Japanese?

An engineer saw a photo and figured out a smaller, simpler version?
 

Deleted member 1487

Supposing Jumo engineers can get the Jumo 222 Series II mass produced in 1940 what impact does this have on the war? Does the technology get shared with Japan and if so does it result in any significant changes?
I've done a few threads on this if you want to do a forum search.
Also it wasn't supposed to be in mass production before 1942 as I recall and even then was based on the Ostmark engine facility being ready, which it was not until 1943 and even then was behind schedule:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugmotorenwerke_Ostmark

So...at best you have a limited amount in production in 1942 and only from 1943 on getting significant production.
That said if you presume it is ready in 1940, that is even earlier than planned, then it could get into limited production in 1940 and somewhat greater production in 1941, but it will be limited by the limited number of facilities available for some time.

At work.

Wasn't the 222 the basis for a 'Small' seven stage turbine developed late by the Japanese?

An engineer saw a photo and figured out a smaller, simpler version?
No. Jumo 222:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_222
 
I've done a few threads on this if you want to do a forum search.
Also it wasn't supposed to be in mass production before 1942 as I recall and even then was based on the Ostmark engine facility being ready, which it was not until 1943 and even then was behind schedule:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugmotorenwerke_Ostmark

So...at best you have a limited amount in production in 1942 and only from 1943 on getting significant production.
That said if you presume it is ready in 1940, that is even earlier than planned, then it could get into limited production in 1940 and somewhat greater production in 1941, but it will be limited by the limited number of facilities available for some time.


No. Jumo 222:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_222

With a first test run in 1939 I thought series I and II of A and B models were scripted for mass production prior to Barbarossa?
 

Deleted member 1487

With a first test run in 1939 I thought series I and II of A and B models were scripted for mass production prior to Barbarossa?
Production, but not 'mass' production in the sense that was planned on with the Ostmark facility (a theoretical planned capacity of 1000 units per month). It would have been produced earlier at the main Jumo development facility at Dessau like the later Jumo 213 was...which started off with highly limited output until they could convert another production line to make the engine:
http://hugojunkers.bplaced.net/junkers-jumo-213-production.html
Dessau could essentially hand-make engines in their machine shops to the tune of a few dozen per month, but they weren't set up for mass production like a normal production line was, as they were the HQ where they developed new engine technology rather than a major production facility.

Plus a prototype's first run generally means it is still about 2-3 years from being production ready unless EVERYTHING goes right with the prototype.
 
Production, but not 'mass' production in the sense that was planned on with the Ostmark facility (a theoretical planned capacity of 1000 units per month). It would have been produced earlier at the main Jumo development facility at Dessau like the later Jumo 213 was...which started off with highly limited output until they could convert another production line to make the engine:
http://hugojunkers.bplaced.net/junkers-jumo-213-production.html
Dessau could essentially hand-make engines in their machine shops to the tune of a few dozen per month, but they weren't set up for mass production like a normal production line was, as they were the HQ where they developed new engine technology rather than a major production facility.

Plus a prototype's first run generally means it is still about 2-3 years from being production ready unless EVERYTHING goes right with the prototype.

Thanks Wiking!
 

Deleted member 1487

At work.

Quick search. I think the Japanese engine in reference/question was the "Ishikawajima Ne - 20".

Cheers.
That was based on the BMW 003 jet engine. The Jumo 222 was a 24 cylinder piston engine like the Napier Sabre.
 
At work.

Oops! Sorry!

My passion runs away with me again. :blush:

Okay.... right.....

Having refreshed my memory.....

Wasn't another problem the 'In fighting' in thr RLM?

That the power of the engin kept getting increased?

I vaguely recal that the 2k horse power version was kind of ready to move to large scale production. Only for the specs to change with an increase upwards to 4k horse power.

Of note is Jumo's design features of the 222 that (Other than the supercharger intake being on the 'Opposite side) effectivly interchangeable with its Mercedes rival. All the frame bolting points etc being the same. :)
 
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Supposing Jumo engineers can get the Jumo 222 Series II mass produced in 1940 what impact does this have on the war? Does the technology get shared with Japan and if so does it result in any significant changes?

I'm afraid that mass-produced Jumo 222 in 1940 will require ASB intervention.
Another thing is that, apart the Ju-288 and probably Do-217, Germany does not have a suitable airframe for such a heavy engine by at least mid-war.

At work.

Oops! Sorry!

My passion runs away with me again. :blush:

Okay.... right.....

Having refreshed my memory.....

Wasn't another problem the 'In fighting' in thr RLM?

That the power of the engin kept getting increased?

I vaguely recal that the 2k horse power version was kind of ready to move to large scale production. Only for the specs to change with an increase upwards to 4k horse power.

Only for the specs to double the power output within a few months? This will require a whole new engine. Historically, RLM wanted new versions to grow to 3000 HP, while featuring 2-stage supercharger, that among other things eventually meant change in bore and stroke (= new pistons, pins, crankshaft, new vibration pattern, new heads and valvetrain...), S/C design, cooling & lubrication system...

(yes, once we read that people in other companies just bolted together 14 or 18 cylinders from a legacy 9 cyl engine, and that new engine miraculously worked, we can call it is a load of BS since it is; or - that RR bolted two Peregrines together and voila - there is a Vulture: BS again)

So yes, Jumo 222 program was a study in failures, both from RLM messing into design, and then Jumo with engine having problems with vibrations, drives' and supercharger failures, corrosion and what not.

Of note is Jumo's design features of the 222 that (Other than the supercharger intake being on the 'Opposite side) effectivly interchangeable with its Mercedes rival. All the frame bolting points etc being the same. :)

You've mixed up the Jumo 222 with Jumo 213 here.
 

Deleted member 1487

At work.

Oops! Sorry!

My passion runs away with me again. :blush:

Okay.... right.....

Having refreshed my memory.....

Wasn't another problem the 'In fighting' in thr RLM?

That the power of the engin kept getting increased?

I vaguely recal that the 2k horse power version was kind of ready to move to large scale production. Only for the specs to change with an increase upwards to 4k horse power.
The power spec increase certainly did not help, but someone on another forum shared the German language memoir of the guy that ran the project and from what I can understand of it even the 2000hp version had a bunch of problems in 1940 and was ultimately only solved by the use of strategic reserve non-ferrous metals that were in limited supply. I don't know if it could have been solved without those heat resistant metals without those power increases, but historically the uprated versions were only 'perfected' with access to those metals. IOTL though AFAIK there was no production ready 2000hp version before the uprated spec change happened.

Of note is Jumo's design features of the 222 that (Other than the supercharger intake being on the 'Opposite side) effectivly interchangeable with its Mercedes rival. All the frame bolting points etc being the same. :)
That was the Jumo 213 with the DB603. The Daimler 24 cylinder engine was the DB604, but that was canceled in 1942 without a viable prototype.
 
At work.


So the concensus is kind of "For the 222 to enter production earlier the German's must have already won the war." :p

I offer said reply firmly tongue in cheek.

So.... a question.

Was the 222 actually a 'Good' engine?

Issues aside, had the engine been possible..... would things have been learned/other avenues been developed explored etc?
 
...

Was the 222 actually a 'Good' engine?

Issues aside, had the engine been possible..... would things have been learned/other avenues been developed explored etc?

There probably is no 'bad engine' to start with - people succeeded in making a lots of problematic and/or complex engines to work (Sabre, Vulture, R-4360, R-3350, BMW 801, AM-42).

IMO, a more convenient question might be 'was it what Germany needed and could afford in a global war?' (even if the term 'global' involves just UK, France and/or USSR. My answer is 'no' - again, IMO, Germany needed more developed and much more produced V12 types.
That follows the 'other avenues developed/explored' - BMW stays in V12 business, DB gets the green light to make DB 603 before the war, Jumo makes a 2-stage supercharged Jumo 211...
 

Deleted member 1487

At work.


So the concensus is kind of "For the 222 to enter production earlier the German's must have already won the war." :p

I offer said reply firmly tongue in cheek.
Sure...but no, they didn't have to have won the war to put it into production.

So.... a question.

Was the 222 actually a 'Good' engine?

Issues aside, had the engine been possible..... would things have been learned/other avenues been developed explored etc?
Supposedly yes it was when it was ready. What other 'things learned/other avenues' do you mean?
 
At work.

Sure...but no, they didn't have to have won the war to put it into production.


Supposedly yes it was when it was ready. What other 'things learned/other avenues' do you mean?


Ah well. Not being any sort of 'Engine' person I'm not sure how even to phrase the thought I'm having.

But here goes.

With turbines we see their innitial uses and developments. We can follow said developments into the present day with their evolution into such things as 'High bypass' types.

Um.... as a kind of parralel. What influences, if any, did engines such as the Merlin propogate into today's world?

Cheers.
 
At work.

There probably is no 'bad engine' to start with - people succeeded in making a lots of problematic and/or complex engines to work (Sabre, Vulture, R-4360, R-3350, BMW 801, AM-42).

IMO, a more convenient question might be 'was it what Germany needed and could afford in a global war?' (even if the term 'global' involves just UK, France and/or USSR. My answer is 'no' - again, IMO, Germany needed more developed and much more produced V12 types.
That follows the 'other avenues developed/explored' - BMW stays in V12 business, DB gets the green light to make DB 603 before the war, Jumo makes a 2-stage supercharged Jumo 211...

Was the DB 603 a 'Good' engine?

Cheers.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Perhaps you start earlier, across the sea, with the Curtiss H-1640, 12 cylinder radial. It was two rows of six cylinders. The rows were two back to back cylinders sharing a head. It was air-cooled which was a shortcoming, as cooling was never satisfactory. If Curtiss had water cooled the engine and raised power, it could have been developed further. Then, have Junkers licence the basic design by the end of the 1920's.
 

Deleted member 1487

Um.... as a kind of parralel. What influences, if any, did engines such as the Merlin propogate into today's world?

Cheers.
For aircraft engines? Nothing because of the shift to turbo jets. I can't think of any sort of aero-engine influence it really had once modern engine types were introduced.
In terms of car engines maybe there was some influence, but I can't think of anything specific.
 
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