Xanth
Banned
Could the July 20th Plot backfire on Germany?
My reasoning is this, while it is commonly known that the plotters wanted to end death camps, their other plans were less known, as is the fact that they inlcuded war criminals and nationalists.
In other thread I mentioned their plans to strip Jews of citizenship and deporting them to South America.
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-bankier-f02.htm
Upon reading these documents, it is hard not to see the commonalties between Abegg's schemes and the plans for the Jews of the German conservative opposition in the Third Reich, formulated by Carl Goerdeler and by Constantin von Dietze. For Goerdeler, the solution of the Jewish question after the war was the establishment of a Jewish state in parts of Canada or South America and granting German citizenship only to a small, elitist minority of Jews willing to assimilate completely. Likewise, Constantin von Dietze, of the Freiburg circle, made legal discrimination conditional on the number of Jews returning to Germany, and believed that discrimination was unnecessary because "the number of surviving returning Jews would be so small that they would pose no threat to the German people."[SIZE=-2]13[/SIZE]
It is important to point out that people like Abegg, Goerdeler, and von Dietze were all anti-Nazis. Yet, when it came to the Jewish question, beneath their superficial formal opposition to Nazi anti-Semitism, they basically approved, on pragmatic grounds, legal discriminatory measures against the Jews. They would evidently not subscribe to the crude stereotypes that placed the Jews outside the universe of moral obligation, yet viewed them as a category that was separate from their realm, thus perpetuating the myths of Jewish otherness. Their solutions for postwar German Jews are typical of those who understood that since the state was to be both German-Christian and constitutional, Jews who wished to be citizens and maintain their Judaism would have to accept an inferior status.
Germany: the long road west. 1933-1990 Heinrich August Winkler,Alexander Sager
Mentions that Carl Goerdeler - the candidate for chancellor of July 20th plotters planned in memorandum of 1941 that Jews(which he remarks is truism are a "different race") would be deported to South America or Canada. Only Jews who could prove they fought for Germany in IWW or were neutralised before 1871 or converted to Christanity were to be spared.
Alternatives to Hitler: German resistance under the Third Reich by Hans Mommsen
Also adds that Jews would be stripped of citizenship, the right to vote, and access to public office.
So what if the July 20th plot happens, but the Allies see the plotters demands:Jews deported to South America, no trials for war criminals, annexation of lands in the East and in the South, no peace with Soviet Union. In addition war criminals are made part of the government as well as known hardline nationalists.
Could that actually backfire on Germany-seeing how even the resistance is largely fascists(not Nazi) and demanding annexations, discrimination, ethnic cleansing-the Allies are convinced that Germany can't be trusted to rule itself-and thus the German state is delayed post-war, and Allies are more harsher on German population believing that political cooperation is impossible ?
My reasoning is this, while it is commonly known that the plotters wanted to end death camps, their other plans were less known, as is the fact that they inlcuded war criminals and nationalists.
In other thread I mentioned their plans to strip Jews of citizenship and deporting them to South America.
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-bankier-f02.htm
Upon reading these documents, it is hard not to see the commonalties between Abegg's schemes and the plans for the Jews of the German conservative opposition in the Third Reich, formulated by Carl Goerdeler and by Constantin von Dietze. For Goerdeler, the solution of the Jewish question after the war was the establishment of a Jewish state in parts of Canada or South America and granting German citizenship only to a small, elitist minority of Jews willing to assimilate completely. Likewise, Constantin von Dietze, of the Freiburg circle, made legal discrimination conditional on the number of Jews returning to Germany, and believed that discrimination was unnecessary because "the number of surviving returning Jews would be so small that they would pose no threat to the German people."[SIZE=-2]13[/SIZE]
It is important to point out that people like Abegg, Goerdeler, and von Dietze were all anti-Nazis. Yet, when it came to the Jewish question, beneath their superficial formal opposition to Nazi anti-Semitism, they basically approved, on pragmatic grounds, legal discriminatory measures against the Jews. They would evidently not subscribe to the crude stereotypes that placed the Jews outside the universe of moral obligation, yet viewed them as a category that was separate from their realm, thus perpetuating the myths of Jewish otherness. Their solutions for postwar German Jews are typical of those who understood that since the state was to be both German-Christian and constitutional, Jews who wished to be citizens and maintain their Judaism would have to accept an inferior status.
Germany: the long road west. 1933-1990 Heinrich August Winkler,Alexander Sager
Mentions that Carl Goerdeler - the candidate for chancellor of July 20th plotters planned in memorandum of 1941 that Jews(which he remarks is truism are a "different race") would be deported to South America or Canada. Only Jews who could prove they fought for Germany in IWW or were neutralised before 1871 or converted to Christanity were to be spared.
Alternatives to Hitler: German resistance under the Third Reich by Hans Mommsen
Also adds that Jews would be stripped of citizenship, the right to vote, and access to public office.
So what if the July 20th plot happens, but the Allies see the plotters demands:Jews deported to South America, no trials for war criminals, annexation of lands in the East and in the South, no peace with Soviet Union. In addition war criminals are made part of the government as well as known hardline nationalists.
Could that actually backfire on Germany-seeing how even the resistance is largely fascists(not Nazi) and demanding annexations, discrimination, ethnic cleansing-the Allies are convinced that Germany can't be trusted to rule itself-and thus the German state is delayed post-war, and Allies are more harsher on German population believing that political cooperation is impossible ?