July 20th Plot backfires on Germany?

Xanth

Banned
Could the July 20th Plot backfire on Germany?

My reasoning is this, while it is commonly known that the plotters wanted to end death camps, their other plans were less known, as is the fact that they inlcuded war criminals and nationalists.

In other thread I mentioned their plans to strip Jews of citizenship and deporting them to South America.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-bankier-f02.htm
Upon reading these documents, it is hard not to see the commonalties between Abegg's schemes and the plans for the Jews of the German conservative opposition in the Third Reich, formulated by Carl Goerdeler and by Constantin von Dietze. For Goerdeler, the solution of the Jewish question after the war was the establishment of a Jewish state in parts of Canada or South America and granting German citizenship only to a small, elitist minority of Jews willing to assimilate completely. Likewise, Constantin von Dietze, of the Freiburg circle, made legal discrimination conditional on the number of Jews returning to Germany, and believed that discrimination was unnecessary because "the number of surviving returning Jews would be so small that they would pose no threat to the German people."[SIZE=-2]13[/SIZE]
It is important to point out that people like Abegg, Goerdeler, and von Dietze were all anti-Nazis. Yet, when it came to the Jewish question, beneath their superficial formal opposition to Nazi anti-Semitism, they basically approved, on pragmatic grounds, legal discriminatory measures against the Jews. They would evidently not subscribe to the crude stereotypes that placed the Jews outside the universe of moral obligation, yet viewed them as a category that was separate from their realm, thus perpetuating the myths of Jewish otherness. Their solutions for postwar German Jews are typical of those who understood that since the state was to be both German-Christian and constitutional, Jews who wished to be citizens and maintain their Judaism would have to accept an inferior status.


Germany: the long road west. 1933-1990 Heinrich August Winkler,Alexander Sager

Mentions that Carl Goerdeler - the candidate for chancellor of July 20th plotters planned in memorandum of 1941 that Jews(which he remarks is truism are a "different race") would be deported to South America or Canada. Only Jews who could prove they fought for Germany in IWW or were neutralised before 1871 or converted to Christanity were to be spared.

Alternatives to Hitler: German resistance under the Third Reich by Hans Mommsen
Also adds that Jews would be stripped of citizenship, the right to vote, and access to public office.




So what if the July 20th plot happens, but the Allies see the plotters demands:Jews deported to South America, no trials for war criminals, annexation of lands in the East and in the South, no peace with Soviet Union. In addition war criminals are made part of the government as well as known hardline nationalists.

Could that actually backfire on Germany-seeing how even the resistance is largely fascists(not Nazi) and demanding annexations, discrimination, ethnic cleansing-the Allies are convinced that Germany can't be trusted to rule itself-and thus the German state is delayed post-war, and Allies are more harsher on German population believing that political cooperation is impossible ?
 
Could the July 20th Plot backfire on Germany?

My reasoning is this, while it is commonly known that the plotters wanted to end death camps, their other plans were less known, as is the fact that they inlcuded war criminals and nationalists.

In other thread I mentioned their plans to strip Jews of citizenship and deporting them to South America.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-bankier-f02.htm
Upon reading these documents, it is hard not to see the commonalties between Abegg's schemes and the plans for the Jews of the German conservative opposition in the Third Reich, formulated by Carl Goerdeler and by Constantin von Dietze. For Goerdeler, the solution of the Jewish question after the war was the establishment of a Jewish state in parts of Canada or South America and granting German citizenship only to a small, elitist minority of Jews willing to assimilate completely. Likewise, Constantin von Dietze, of the Freiburg circle, made legal discrimination conditional on the number of Jews returning to Germany, and believed that discrimination was unnecessary because "the number of surviving returning Jews would be so small that they would pose no threat to the German people."[SIZE=-2]13[/SIZE]
It is important to point out that people like Abegg, Goerdeler, and von Dietze were all anti-Nazis. Yet, when it came to the Jewish question, beneath their superficial formal opposition to Nazi anti-Semitism, they basically approved, on pragmatic grounds, legal discriminatory measures against the Jews. They would evidently not subscribe to the crude stereotypes that placed the Jews outside the universe of moral obligation, yet viewed them as a category that was separate from their realm, thus perpetuating the myths of Jewish otherness. Their solutions for postwar German Jews are typical of those who understood that since the state was to be both German-Christian and constitutional, Jews who wished to be citizens and maintain their Judaism would have to accept an inferior status.


Germany: the long road west. 1933-1990 Heinrich August Winkler,Alexander Sager

Mentions that Carl Goerdeler - the candidate for chancellor of July 20th plotters planned in memorandum of 1941 that Jews(which he remarks is truism are a "different race") would be deported to South America or Canada. Only Jews who could prove they fought for Germany in IWW or were neutralised before 1871 or converted to Christanity were to be spared.

Alternatives to Hitler: German resistance under the Third Reich by Hans Mommsen
Also adds that Jews would be stripped of citizenship, the right to vote, and access to public office.




So what if the July 20th plot happens, but the Allies see the plotters demands:Jews deported to South America, no trials for war criminals, annexation of lands in the East and in the South, no peace with Soviet Union. In addition war criminals are made part of the government as well as known hardline nationalists.

Could that actually backfire on Germany-seeing how even the resistance is largely fascists(not Nazi) and demanding annexations, discrimination, ethnic cleansing-the Allies are convinced that Germany can't be trusted to rule itself-and thus the German state is delayed post-war, and Allies are more harsher on German population believing that political cooperation is impossible ?


Trials for war criminals would be a mute point... in a scenario where the July 20 plotters are successful they will execute all the power players anyway since they would be a threat to the Junta (Himmler, Goering, Ribbentrop, Speer, Guderian plus a lot of the big wigs in the party would be lined up against a wall)

Now of course Stauffenberg would want them tried; however force of events (assuming a successful assumption of power) would likely take this out of their hands and Beck could lean on him to kill everyone


The western front was just about to go into shambles and the east was in shambles... the Junta could try retiring to the west wall and the oder and begging for peace... but forgetting even possible civil war, they where beaten... July 20th 1944 is just too late of a POD for Germany to survive
 

Xanth

Banned
Trials for war criminals would be a mute point... in a scenario where the July 20 plotters are successful they will execute all the power players anyway since they would be a threat to the Junta (Himmler, Goering, Ribbentrop, Speer, Guderian plus a lot of the big wigs in the party would be lined up against a wall)
The July 20th plot included many war criminals:
*Ewald Loeser(actually sentenced post-war for exploitation of slaves and plunder of conquered countries),
*Arthur Nebe(repressions against Jews in Belarus, Roma people, mass executions of Jews, trains to concentration camps, proposals to use Roma for medical experiments)
*Wolf-Heinrich Graf von Helldorf-Berlin’s chief of Police-repressions against Jews. Helldorf wasbehind the arson and looting of Berlin's synagogues and Jewish businesses in the pogroms of November 1938(technically not a war criminal, but still responsible for atrocities)
*Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff in command composed of Einsatzgruppen personel and Gestapo. They mass murdered 21.000 people between 1st of July 1942 and 31st March in Belarus
*Georg von Boeselager-proposed massacres of civilian population and ethnic cleansing of all male population
*Fritz-Dietlof Graf von der Schulenburg-sanctioned executions of Russian PoWs
*Tresckow-ordered kidnapping of children in the East for Germanisation, planned anti-partisan operations aimed at civilians.

While most criminals of July 20th Plot were involved in the Eastern massacres, they were also ones involved in atrocities in the West;General von Stulpnagel ordered massacres of civilians in France.



As to trials-the proposals written by Stauffenberg(he wasn't the one who set forth the main goals of the plotters) included a clause that wrote "each nations would deal with its own criminals".
 
The July 20th plot included many war criminals:
*Ewald Loeser(actually sentenced post-war for exploitation of slaves and plunder of conquered countries),
*Arthur Nebe(repressions against Jews in Belarus, Roma people, mass executions of Jews, trains to concentration camps, proposals to use Roma for medical experiments)
*Wolf-Heinrich Graf von Helldorf-Berlin’s chief of Police-repressions against Jews. Helldorf wasbehind the arson and looting of Berlin's synagogues and Jewish businesses in the pogroms of November 1938(technically not a war criminal, but still responsible for atrocities)
*Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff in command composed of Einsatzgruppen personel and Gestapo. They mass murdered 21.000 people between 1st of July 1942 and 31st March in Belarus
*Georg von Boeselager-proposed massacres of civilian population and ethnic cleansing of all male population
*Fritz-Dietlof Graf von der Schulenburg-sanctioned executions of Russian PoWs
*Tresckow-ordered kidnapping of children in the East for Germanisation, planned anti-partisan operations aimed at civilians.

While most criminals of July 20th Plot were involved in the Eastern massacres, they were also ones involved in atrocities in the West;General von Stulpnagel ordered massacres of civilians in France.



As to trials-the proposals written by Stauffenberg(he wasn't the one who set forth the main goals of the plotters) included a clause that wrote "each nations would deal with its own criminals".


It's pretty safe to assume that anyone who lent support to the plot would be "forgiven" under a germanized trial system... the mega monsters like Hitler, Goebbles and Himmler would be gone;... but it doesn't matter with a POD July 20 1944 the allies aren't going to make any deals anyway; even if Germany offers to surrender; they where out for blood
 
Perhaps if the July 20th Plotters only offer surrender to the Western Allies ;) Perception of the Soviet military machine running across all of Europe is very high at this point, IIRC. Could the US, UK & France accept Germany's offers it it means stopping the dirty-commies from gobbling up any more European lands?
 

Xanth

Banned
Perhaps if the July 20th Plotters only offer surrender to the Western Allies ;) Perception of the Soviet military machine running across all of Europe is very high at this point, IIRC. Could the US, UK & France accept Germany's offers it it means stopping the dirty-commies from gobbling up any more European lands?
That's impossible-since the reason for the war was agression against Allied nations, and the resulting annexations by Nazi regime-the plotters demanded that those annexations be reckognised as legal. Also the alliance with USSR was strong enough for the USA to reject such proposals.
 
That's impossible-since the reason for the war was agression against Allied nations, and the resulting annexations by Nazi regime-the plotters demanded that those annexations be reckognised as legal. Also the alliance with USSR was strong enough for the USA to reject such proposals.

But were the July 20th Plotters open to negotiating these terms with the Western Allies? That's the important question than. If you're buying a used car, your first offer is never what you're actually wanting to spend. So say the US/UK and France especially 'talk down' the Germans, perhaps even including a temporary truce on the Western front allowing the Germans to throw more men into stalling the Soviets - who of course are going to be pressing all the harder knowing the Germans are opening negotiations with the West.
 
That's impossible-since the reason for the war was agression against Allied nations, and the resulting annexations by Nazi regime-the plotters demanded that those annexations be reckognised as legal.

This is completly wrong, the Valkyre members were all aware that such demands were completly impossible, Karl Goerdeler even said: "all that is left for me is to become a german Badoglio" (i.e. the one who surrenders to the allies) and Stauffenberg remarked that Germany would be lucky to keep the Versailles borders.

Also the alliance with USSR was strong enough for the USA to reject such proposals.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, the polish government for instance was anti-soviet (especially after Katyn was discovered) and the plotters were aware of this. Several of them proposed that in case the negotiation with the western allies wouldn't stop the soviets, german troops should vacate several polish cities hand controll over to the government in exile, so that there is a buffer between them and the Soviets.
 
It's pretty safe to assume that anyone who lent support to the plot would be "forgiven" under a germanized trial system... the mega monsters like Hitler, Goebbles and Himmler would be gone;... but it doesn't matter with a POD July 20 1944 the allies aren't going to make any deals anyway; even if Germany offers to surrender; they where out for blood
Nah, I don't really think so, except ofcourse a zero telorance regarding the SS. The 'unconditional surrender' was still in place when Japan surrendered, and the Japanese managed to rescue their monarchy, even though they'd been nuked.
 
I’ve always been scornful of the Germans-cut-deal-with-the-Western Allies and throw troops at the Russians trope. For one thing any second rate or worn-out troops the Germans throw at the Russians are going to be cut to pieces very very quickly. The idea that Germany can stall the Soviets even for a few weeks is rather fanciful by 1944. And assumes extra troops wont just be as ill-used as many were OTL.

For another the German state all branches of it was so complicit in Nazi crimes that anything short of full surrender and de-nazifying overseen by the occupying Grand Alliance would be a travesty of justice. Also such blatant betray of the war-time alliance would ruin the reputation of the Western Allies and Germany would be a lot poorer, socially backwards and would still be hated & feared by the world at large if the plotters stupid plan somehow succeeded..
 
It's pretty safe to assume that anyone who lent support to the plot would be "forgiven" under a germanized trial system... the mega monsters like Hitler, Goebbles and Himmler would be gone;... but it doesn't matter with a POD July 20 1944 the allies aren't going to make any deals anyway; even if Germany offers to surrender; they where out for blood
Indeed, the Allies in 1944 mostly believed that the Nazi party and the German military establishment were working together towards the same goal, so I doubt a coup would convince the Allies that things were better now. If anything, a lot of the Allies would probably think that a military coup was just an internal power play and/or the military establishment getting rid of their puppets, the Nazis, and just taking over directly. The Allied grasp on the details of internal German politics was more than a little shaky.

Also, I could certainly see some of the high-ranking Nazis surviving a July 20 plot if they see which way the wind is blowing and decide to throw their lot in with the coup. You could even end up with someone like Goering essentially co-opting the coup and convincing everyone that he was never "really" a Nazi and that once the resistance leaders told him about Nazi war crimes he saw the error of his ways and joined them. Even if the coupists saw through the trick, the benefits of cutting a deal with one or two high-ranking Nazis to get a smooth transition of power would be great enough to be tempting.
 

Xanth

Banned
Nah, I don't really think so, except ofcourse a zero telorance regarding the SS.
That isn't true-Arthur Nebe a member of the plot was from SS. Perhaps there were others, I would have to check that.
This is completly wrong, the Valkyre members were all aware that such demands were completly impossible, Karl Goerdeler even said: "all that is left for me is to become a german Badoglio" (i.e. the one who surrenders to the allies) and Stauffenberg remarked that Germany would be lucky to keep the Versailles borders.
Where did you get that ?
The Routledge companion to Nazi Germany mentions:
Stauffenberg memo from May 1944 called for the 1914 Reich borders in the east

Obviously any such idea being discussed by Western Allies means total re-orienation of Poles towards the Soviet side.
Several of them proposed that in case the negotiation with the western allies wouldn't stop the soviets, german troops should vacate several polish cities hand controll over to the government in exile, so that there is a buffer between them and the Soviets.
It seems the plotters didn't know of the November 1943 order of Polish government in exile ordering all Polish resistance to cooperate fully with Soviet forces entering Polish territories. Polish Home Army helped Soviet units liberate Vilnius on July 7th and Lviv on July 23rd.

Also a lot of Poles supported Soviets after experiencing German occupation, this would change later with Soviet rule, but in 1944-1946 there was a lot of genuine support among a large part of Polish society in western Poland for entering Soviet troops.
 
Where did you get that ?
The Routledge companion to Nazi Germany mentions:
Stauffenberg memo from May 1944 called for the 1914 Reich borders in the east

That was what the would have wanted, but they knew very wellthe wouldn't get it.

It seems the plotters didn't know of the November 1943 order of Polish government in exile ordering all Polish resistance to cooperate fully with Soviet forces entering Polish territories. Polish Home Army helped Soviet units liberate Vilnius on July 7th and Lviv on July 23rd.

I guess they knew this but they were also aware that the Soviet Union broke all ties to the Polish government. There is also the fact that compared to a german occupation the Soviets were of course preferable, but if the polish government could return into a free Poland they would certainly have prefered it to a Soviet occupation (which relabeld the whole Home army from "freedom fighters" to fascists within months).
 

Typo

Banned
Indeed, the Allies in 1944 mostly believed that the Nazi party and the German military establishment were working together towards the same goal, so I doubt a coup would convince the Allies that things were better now.
That's because the Nazi party and the German military were working towards the same goal and have being since the night of the long knives.
 
That's because the Nazi party and the German military were working towards the same goal and have being since the night of the long knives.
Of course; the military was 100% behind the Nazi goal of establishing the absolute supremacy of Germany on the European continent, and most of them were willing to, at best, reluctantly accept everything else that came with the Nazi regime if victory was included as part of the package.
 
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