July 20 Plot

I don't know. I don't understand why they wouldn't, unless they figured they wouldn't get them.

They did not, however, do so. For that matter the Confederate army in the US Civil War had its own precursor to this order specifying execution of all USCT. Nathan Bedford Forrest was the most notorious person who put this order into practice, but he was not the first nor the last to do so. By this standard, should those Confederates have been hung for war crimes after the war? After all they deserved it far more than Henry Wirz did, though he himself was not a nice man.
 
And that's a justification for rape and murder?

No, but I give context you give teh ev0l Asiatic Russians stereotypes. Of the kind the Nazi were wont to spread and, and which I wont let slide.

Anyway you said the Soviets were ''insanely brutal''. I say the Germans and Japanese were ''insanely brutal'' as they did what they did no reason at all. The Red Army was impulsively violent and it’s excess were not sustained nor state policy.

The motivations behind what the Red Army did were clear as well as being the result of drunkenless and poor discipline in some units. An average ‘’Tommy or GI’’ would’ve doe much the had they been in ‘’Ivans’’ place and if their countries suffered in a similar manner at the hands of the Germans. Indeed the Free-French forces behaved quite badly towards the Germans in their occupation zone for similar reasons to the Soviet troops.


Why would this happen? The US military in Vietnam did not dissolve as soon as the Paris Peace Conference began and peace negotiations went on for awhile before the Korean War ended.

Really, thats what you're bring up? :confused:

Well I’ll say that the those cases are in no way shape or form comparable, the USA was not rickety, tinpot totalitarian dictatorship/leader cult. It was not in a total war. Nor were the US governments in charge at the time the peace negotiations started a pack of opportunistic war-criminals out to save their own skin and keep as much ill-gotten conquests as they could. I’ll leave it at that…

Low-level war criminals get punished all the time. Some American soldiers are on trial now for allegedly killing Afghanis for kicks.
Some Red Army men did get shot, but bluntly do you really think an average Soviet officer or even NKVD man even is going to shot one of his own countrymen for the sake of crimes commited on Germans?

The fact is most would think enough Soviet blood had been shed on account of the Germans and let the matter slide. That might not be good but it's understandable in the context of the time. Also comparing Nazi Germany and the Eastern Front to the current war in Afghanistan is a joke.

Maybe if the USA got involved in a total war and ir's enemy killed 14% of the USA's pre-war population, then afters years of bitter fighting occupied said enemy’s homeland we’d have a basis for comparison.
 
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What war crimes did V.S. commit?

The Hurganoids bring up his racist remarks about "Jews and half-breeds" and comments about POWs being useful for agriculture but being a Prussian aristocratic twit with diarrhea of the mouth is not a war crime.
 
What war crimes did V.S. commit?

The Hurganoids bring up his racist remarks about "Jews and half-breeds" and comments about POWs being useful for agriculture but being a Prussian aristocratic twit with diarrhea of the mouth is not a war crime.

Well von Stauffenberg didnt have a problem with Germany waging aggressive war nor did Beck. they just disagreed with some of Hitler’s policies. Anyway V S was just one of many plotters.

What about Arthur Nebe and the other actual Nazi war-criminals who were happy to lick Hitler’s boot up until the point he started losing the war? After all it was men like these who made up the bulk of the plotters.
 
July 20th Plot Successful

Alright, let's say that the July 20th Plot is successful, and Hitler is killed. What happens next?

I suppose that this has been mentioned in past threads, but I was unable to find them after searching.
 
Unconditional surrender still happens. The Allies weren't going to negotiate with the Germans by this point.
 
um well tries by the new military government to get peace with the west falls on deaf ears (the brits might want to, but the Americans are a no go), the war goes more or less the same, the Germans doing a bit better, which could lead to a nuke being dropped on Germany first, The Holocaust isn't quite so bad but not much better.
 
WI: the July 20 plot worked?

On July 20 1944 members of German restiance trys to kill Hilter, but they failed.

But what if they did kill Hilter? What would happen would the military be able to take power or would a Civil War break out.

If the military takes power would the allies take the peace officer the military would put out, and what about the Soviets. Or if Civil War breaks to the allieds set back and watch?
 
Sorry if it upsets any veteran members that I'm keeping this alive but... in OTL, if I remember correctly, the Western Allies had an agreement with the Soviets that they wouldn't sign a peace treaty separately from the Soviet Union. And it seems unlikely that Stalin would end the war because of a regime change, which keeps the war going. The German army might do better since Hitler was trying to play general, and the real generals could do their job. If Germany manages to force a semi stalemate for a while and the war looks it will drag on, then the Allies could consider an armistice, depending on Germany's behavior post-Hitler.
 
What if the 1944 plot against Hitler succeeded?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_against_Hitler

Difficult to say. Depends a bit on the number of diehard Nazis in the Heer. Possible political and military collapse in the West? Little effect on the Eastern Front. Could rupture the Special Relationship if FDR still pushes for a Yalta like ending to the war while Churchill now wants less than unconditional surrender.
 

Typo

Banned
There was no way the historical july 20th plot could have worked regardless if Hitler died or not.
 
even if they kill hitler, they fail... the party apparatus and the ss where much more powerful and capable than they where in 1938... plus although the west was somewhat circumspect; the eastern generals by that point (Model, Rendulic and Schoerner) where fanatical nazi's

they would go down in a counter coup, and quick
 
Difficult to say. Depends a bit on the number of diehard Nazis in the Heer. Possible political and military collapse in the West? Little effect on the Eastern Front. Could rupture the Special Relationship if FDR still pushes for a Yalta like ending to the war while Churchill now wants less than unconditional surrender.

Churchill would probably wanna work with the new German government for peace. The former America Firsters and other conservatives in U.S. would probably start pressuring FDR to seek peace in Europe. Some in the military like Patton and perhaps MacArthur would advocate war with the Soviets after defeating Japan. Stalin would try to conquer Germany and as much of Europe as he could. Also, there might be a strong movement in Germany to restore the monarchy.
 
For All Time's July 20 Plot in OTL

Assuming everything up until this happens as in OTL, then this happens:

-Eberhard von Breitenbuch will become a favorite source of speculation for alternate historians of the future. What if he'd used a bomb, as all of his fellow conspirators had planned? What if he'd shot Hitler two days earlier, or two days later? And, perhaps the most obvious, what if he'd succeeded outright? But, of course, he did none of those things.

What he did do, around noon on October 16, 1945, was shoot Adolf Hitler twice in the chest in the middle of the last Fuhrer Conference to be held at the Berghof, with a small Browning pistol he'd smuggled in past SS Security. The first bullet passed neatly through Hitler's left lung; the second passing through Hitler's arm, rib, and the big muscles of his chest before lodging in his spine.

Just before the Fuhrer was rushed out of the command pillbox, unconcious from shock and with a sucking wound to the chest, a volley from a dozen SS SG-44s took Breitenbuch in the chest, killing the young officer instantly. A moment later, Obergruppenfuehrer Theodor Eicke, commander of Hitler's personal guard, shot Field Marshal Walter Model in the head as an obvious partner in the conspiracy.

A tableau arose for a moment; the unarmed Army officers, including Luftwaffe commander Kesselring and Peenmunde commander Dornberger, frozen at one end of the locked room, Eicke and his men at the other, loaded machine guns trained on the Army men, fingers trembling on the triggers.

It's hard to say what happened next (there is a paucity of reliable eyewitness testimony) but the best evidence suggests that one of the Army officers, perhaps Wilhelm Keitel, slipped on a pool of blood and fell across Breitenbuch's dropped pistol.

The SS immediately opened fire, riddling Keitel with bullets, as the trapped Army officers fled for the locked exit door. In a matters of moments, as Eicke shouted "Kill all the traitors!", Field Marshals Walter von Blomberg, Walter von Reichenau, and Fedor von Bock were dead, shot in the back as they managed to tear the lock off the door. Albert von Kesselring and Walter Dornberger fall as well, critically wounded. Dornberger will linger another few weeks in an Army hospital before dying; von Kesseling will live out the rest of his life in a wheelchair.

Only Erich von Manstein, oppurtunist extraordinarie, is thus still alive and articulate (he ducked under the table) when Lt.-Colonel Wilhelm Heinz and his men break down the pillbox's door a moment later; alive to cry out, "It's the SS, they've shot the Fuhrer and are launching a coup!"

The subsequent exchange of fire is heard by both nearby SS and conventional Army troops, and thanks to foolish aggression and clever calculation, the German Civil War has begun.

As the roar of gunfire grows louder from the camp, an anonymous, forgotten truck, carrying the unconcious Adolf Hitler and two SS doctors, speeds away toward Munich.

-An hour later, in Oldenburg, the headquarters of the German army facing the Americans in the Low Countries, General Heinz Guderian personally executes Heinrich Himmler after the former SS chief is dragged from the ruins of his former command post (Guderian used an entire panzer brigade to bring him down).

Similarly, in Rome, Italian and German Army troops arrest every SS officer in the city; Erich von Witzleben is the most senior surviving Army officer in the Reich, already there is talk of him as the next Chancellor.

But there is no such talk in Berlin, where Reinhard Heydrich has purged every OKH officer that so much as looked at a swastika cross-eyed, and declared himself provisional leader of the loyalist forces of the Reich.

Swiftly, he dispatches Dr. Joseph Goebbels to Nuremburg, to conduct a massive rally with the elite of the Party faithful; to tell the citizens of Greater Germany that the Fuhrer is alive (which he is) and well (which he isn't.)

-There are 10,000 people in Nuremburg Stadium, a mix of administrators, Party officials, SS officers and loyal soliders, on the afternoon of October 16, 1945, cheering with varying degrees of madness as Admiral Karl Doenitz, Joachim von Ribbentrop, and then Joseph Goebbels proclaim their loyalty to the fallen Fuhrer and to the ever-lasting Thousand-Year Reich.

So, a July 20 plot with slightly better results occurs. Of course, the post-plot situation, with factions in the Wehrmacht actually carrying out Valkyrie, might have been influenced by events in FANTL. (For one thing, the U.S. nukes Leipzig. That's got to create a lot of butterflies.)

Still, could this situation have happened?
 

Typo

Banned
Basically no, in FaT a significantly higher proportion of army position in far higher positions goes for the plot because the war lasted longer (and Hitler had more time to get insane)

Guderian being proactively anti-nazi in OTL July 1944 isn't gonna happen for example.
 
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