Julius Caesar Dies During Gallic War

[Dan Carlin]

Well, it was midnight. I'm responding now.

Calling the Celts barbarians is hardly accurate. Probably the Mongols too, but I don't know much about them.

The Gauls introduced soap to the Romans and Greeks. The "Roman" gladius was a Celtiberian invention.

I'm just a bit sick of people making blanket statements.

Barbarian=tribal. No offense to the Celts intended. The Mongols were tribal until their states became settled too (I would not call either the Yuan Dynasty or the Ilkhanids "barbarians"...but settled peoples with a "barbarian" overlordship leading them).

Perhaps the term "Barbarian" is loaded itself. But we are a bit far removed from then to be hurt by the label, aren't we? I mean...if we decide the Celts were not "barbarians" because we don't like the term...what do you propose as better to differentiate them from, say, Rome, or the Successor states or carthage?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Barbarian=tribal. No offense to the Celts intended. The Mongols were tribal until their states became settled too (I would not call either the Yuan Dynasty or the Ilkhanids "barbarians"...but settled peoples with a "barbarian" overlordship leading them).

Perhaps the term "Barbarian" is loaded itself. But we are a bit far removed from then to be hurt by the label, aren't we? I mean...if we decide the Celts were not "barbarians" because we don't like the term...what do you propose as better to differentiate them from, say, Rome, or the Successor states or carthage?

Disorganized? That was one of the few differences between Rome and its northern neighbors. All of Rome was under one or two leaders, whereas Gaul, Britain and Germany had hundreds of competing cheifdoms each. Roman cohorts fought as a team, supporting each other. Celts and Germans fought individually, believing that single combat could decide battles. Unfortunately, the Romans didn't believe that.

Now, if Caesar were killed, and his legions destroyed, the SPQR may decide to keep to the coast, especially if Vercingetorix was able to keep control. There's no reason to think that the Gauls couldn't have built a "civilization".

 

[Dan Carlin]

Disorganized? That was one of the few differences between Rome and its northern neighbors. All of Rome was under one or two leaders, whereas Gaul, Britain and Germany had hundreds of competing cheifdoms each. Roman cohorts fought as a team, supporting each other. Celts and Germans fought individually, believing that single combat could decide battles. Unfortunately, the Romans didn't believe that.

Now, if Caesar were killed, and his legions destroyed, the SPQR may decide to keep to the coast, especially if Vercingetorix was able to keep control. There's no reason to think that the Gauls couldn't have built a "civilization".

Uh...I have to believe calling a society "tribal" is a lot better than calling it "disorganized" (and probably less offensive to the society in question!).

Also, perhaps YOU are making a blanket statement about fighting styles? While Germans and Gauls/Celts believed in the heroic ethos...they also both fought in units that were often close order and were often able to maneuver as a cohesive body (the Celts at the Battle of Telemon, for example) both Caesar and Tacitus say this. So, making it seem as though they were all running around the battlefield as lone individuals isn't really accurate either.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Uh...I have to believe calling a society "tribal" is a lot better than calling it "disorganized" (and probably less offensive to the society in question!).

Tribal implies a small group.

Also, perhaps YOU are making a blanket statement about fighting styles? While Germans and Gauls/Celts believed in the heroic ethos...they also both fought in units that were often close order and were often able to maneuver as a cohesive body (the Celts at the Battle of Telemon, for example) both Caesar and Tacitus say this. So, making it seem as though they were all running around the battlefield as lone individuals isn't really accurate either.

Perhaps the exception that proves the rule?

For the most part, individual effort was the rule, in the old days at least. The Saxons were big on teamwork.

 

[Dan Carlin]

Tribal implies a small group.

Maybe not THAT small...

From the American Heritage Dictionary definition:

Tribe=A political, ethnic, or ancestral division of ancient states and cultures, especially:

1. Any of the three divisions of the ancient Romans, namely, the Latin, Sabine, and Etruscan.
2. Any of the 12 divisions of ancient Israel.
3. A phyle of ancient Greece.

Would Celtic peoples fall into this category?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Maybe not THAT small...

From the American Heritage Dictionary definition:

Tribe=A political, ethnic, or ancestral division of ancient states and cultures, especially:

1. Any of the three divisions of the ancient Romans, namely, the Latin, Sabine, and Etruscan.
2. Any of the 12 divisions of ancient Israel.
3. A phyle of ancient Greece.

Would Celtic peoples fall into this category?

No.

Maybe 2, but I doubt it.

Meh. Semantics.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The most disorganized element amongst the Celtic forces would no doubt be the more numerous tribal levies. The individual Gallic Chieftains would have under their command retinues of men who either live for personal combat or warriors who served in foreign wars as mercenaries with the Romans, the Greeks or the Carthaginians, and as such, would have picked up some advanced strategies from them, that is if they weren't capable of doing so themselves, which I think such a notion is bullshit, since it seems to imply that the Celts were inherently stupid and unimaginative, and thats just plain wrong. It takes at least one visionary leader of a medium to large tribal kingdom or confederation to take the appropriate steps to unify the different tribal groups through either war or diplomacy. Any sort of people, at the right place and time, could promote themselves to a higher socio-political level. The Celts were no different in that regard, and given their numerous advantageous, such as the mines that existed throughout Gaul, and the metallurgical expertise they possessed, I'm somewhat mystified that the Celts never got round to realising their potential.