Julian reforms Roman Hellenism

This can not be overstated. Take a few minutes to read some of Julian's writings. To King Helios is a hymn he wrote. In it, he describes Helios as The One and all the other gods are reduced manifestations of The One. He considers Homer, Hesiod, Plato, and others as divinely inspired but reinterprets them in light of Iamblichus and other neoplatonists. To tie things together, Julian dedicated it to the same Sallustius that @JoshuaTheRoman mentioned.
i mean, the association of the abrahamic god with helios is clear during constantine's tenure. His association of Christ with an all encompassing light and all.
Please start stop spreading this myth. This isn't how Romans or Greek saw it and comes from people being raised from the most negative versions of the myths
this. if it's not really kosher to openly call the gods believed nowadays as a bunch of dicks, it's equally unfair to the peoples of old to do the same. The things people believe in (even if i believe there is no gods[heheh], which i do) have a really strong influence on people's actions, and are invaluable insights into their thoughts. dismissing those is dismissing a lot of potential historical knowledge.
 
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Anything is possible. Of course it would be difficult but I think ah.com tends to be excessively determinist when it comes to certain things.

The same way the Christians' faith syncretized to attract pagan followers, the new Mithras/Sun cult will have to draw from the very popular monotheist cults in the empire. There are ways to worship the Gods as aspects of The One, and could prove even more popular if they don't devalue people's traditions while still including the usefulness of a messianic, universal and hopeful message for the disenfranchised.

The sacerdotes will need reforming of course, and social welfare was part of the mass conversion to Christianity but if these things are addressed I believe I wi- he could have succeeded. But he would probably have needed hindsight.
 

Philip

Donor
ok so remember how you guys are using the One is pretty much Saturn the other gods were mere servants of Saturn who is the One.

That is not how you are presenting Saturn. The One is not the king of the gods. The One is eternal, unbounded, unchanging. It is also unknowable. In the thought of the time, The One can only be appropriated through an intermediary. This was often the Logos, the Word of God. It could be Sophia, the Wisdom of God. For Julian, it was the Solar Disk, the physical sun, that was the intermediary between The One and man. When Christians adopted the language, the identified the Logos who became incarnated as Christ. As @Timaeus the intermediary could be a collection of emanations from The One.
 
That is not how you are presenting Saturn. The One is not the king of the gods. The One is eternal, unbounded, unchanging. It is also unknowable. In the thought of the time, The One can only be appropriated through an intermediary. This was often the Logos, the Word of God. It could be Sophia, the Wisdom of God. For Julian, it was the Solar Disk, the physical sun, that was the intermediary between The One and man. When Christians adopted the language, the identified the Logos who became incarnated as Christ. As @Timaeus the intermediary could be a collection of emanations from The One.

you are completely right I will change that
 
361 C.E/1114 A.U.C Julian becomes Roman emperor he largely reforms the Roman religion by making it a religion extremely similar to Christianity.
He has Saturn assume the role of the one unknowable and Jupiter as his son and messenger. He also has the other gods act as intermediaries and Pluto and Proserpina rule the underworld. He creates elaborate creation myths and welfare systems along with rewards for converting people and punishments for apostasy. He invites influential pagan, christian,Jewish and Manichean thinkers to help improve his religion including Augustine of Hippo. He also discredits churches and removes money from them. However his religion is not finished. He has fake works detailing rebirth and the gods written by Plato, Socrates, Alexander the Great and Aristotle. He adds the idea of a Heliocentric system in his religion and takes a softer stance on slavery and harder one on banning slavery to appeal to the slaves, but also creates a huge organized Priesthood with the Pontifexes and Pontifex Maximus. They will become the church of this TL. He largely popularizes innovation and public endorses Hero's steam engine.
London A farmer is plowing his fields one day when he notices a black rock in the ground. He takes it and it burns well a lot better than wood. He finds large quantities of it and decides to sell as a power source. It sells extremely fast and the man becomes rich. The black rock is coal. This will revolutionize Rome when combined with the steam engine.
362 C.E/1115 A.U.C Julian begins his attack on Persia however decides to stop at Mesopotamia. He uses wealth from this to build Temples in every city conquered. He also takes over the Crimean peninsula. He increases taxes on all NonJulian Hellenistic religion. He also rounds up Christians into organized communities so they don't intermarry with the pagans. ITTL Julian is looked upon as a Prophet and his work as divinely inspired. Julian becomes the first Pontifex Maximus however separates the role from emperor.
 

Infinity

Banned
More libraries are built. The government publishes the classics. Every library is provided with the classics.

Julian has a less fatalistic view about his own death. Julian does not die when at war with the Parthians.

The religious views of the emperor influence the views of citizens. The emperor which follows Julian is pagan.

None of the above conditions will turn back the clock. The influence of Judeo-Christianity cannot be completely erased. However, the world would be a drastically different place.

Perhaps the most important question is: how would the people of Judea be integrated into the Roman world? Tacitus viewed them as seditious. He said that they revolt as soon as they have the opportunity to do so.

Without Christianity, Judea is again at odds with Pagan Rome. The next question is: what are Judea's best options?

The Talmud was compiled in the 4th century A.D. There could be a timeline where the Talmud becomes more important than the bible. It could be seen as part of Judaism like otl or be perceived as a separate religion. Given the divisive nature of humans, with the absence of the bible, my guess is the Talmud would be perceived as heretical to the torah.

However, the conquest of Mesopotamia would be a variable that's particularly important. If Julian is successful against Parthia in Mesopotamia, there will be a dramatically different outcome than otl. Would the Talmud even exist today if Parthia had been pushed back?

Given the great divide between Judaism and Paganism, a collision course would have been set. Much like when Judea's temple was burnt down in 70 A.D. So how do the Jewish people fight for their survival? Their solution will not be force, rather persuasion. What sort of propaganda might result? There could be more messianic cults that develop. If so, then there would be a different version of Christianity that is persecuted in the 6th century and becomes popular in the 7th century.

Another option is that Jews would flee somewhere else. Not sure where. Would Iran be feasible? Otl, Julian handed over Armenia to the Parthians. Maybe the Jews would have fled there. Although, if Julian is more successful against the Parthians atl, then this is unlikely to happen.

Maybe Ethopia could become the new center of Judaism. Arabia might not be out of the question. I doubt the Jews could coexist with Scythia, but I could be wrong. Note, I use the term "Scythian" loosely, to mean northern mounted nomads. The term "Sarmatian" was a more contemporary term, but only denotes western Scythians.

Whether or not there's Messianic cult 2.0 emerges in Rome at a later date, or the Jews flee, would largely depend on the degree to which Julian is successful against the Parthians.

There can also be a remnant of Christianity which either independent from the Torah or Talmud or synergistically with one or both of these eastern writings forms a religion which is difficult to imagine today.

Further down the road, it's possible Jews make it to India. They may have done so otl. The word Baraita is a lot like Bharata and the word Bhraman could be derived from Abraham.

An earlier variable to consider is the question of Pharisees vs Sadducees. They have different beliefs. The Pharisees are more seditious than the Sadducees. The Sadducees do not believe in spirits and angels. The works of Josephus, who wrote about the Sadducees could become more important atl. Unlike otl, the Sadducees could produce produce works of their own. Considering their high social standing, they certainly had the means to do so. Note, Wikipedia does not make it clear at one point this group stopped being relevant.

Another group to consider are the Essenes. They blamed the fall of Israel on the impiety of the Sadducees. This group most closely resembles Christianity. One of the most remarkable things about them is that they chose not to own slaves.

The Essenes can be subdivided into two groups. 1. The 4th century Nazareans. They were vegetarian. 2. The Ossaeans came after them. Like the Nazareans, they forbade the book of Moses.

In conclusion, there are two main variables to consider: x. The degree to which Julian succeeds in Mesopotamia. y. Which Jewish sects dominate.

Someone with a greater Judeo-Christian theological understanding, in addition to more detailed knowledge of corresponding migration patterns, might be able to better determine what sort of propaganda would result from changing the variables mentioned above.

Note, variable y is dependent upon variable x. Whereas, religion/propaganda is a third variable, dependent on the other two. Alternatively, flight is chosen over intellectual fight.

Ultimately, pagans are likely to get outfoxed. Julian will not be able to change this. Nevertheless, there could be more great classical works written before the fall of Rome.

One less work that would be written is Boethius. Although, there could be a similar writing depending on the nature of a delayed collapse.
 
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There's a pretty interesting video on the subject talking about how Roman paganism could have survived through Julian the Apostate that I would recommend:

 
i am working on the second entry and @Nerdman3000 i saw that video. He screwed it up by making the national religion Mithraism and destroying hellenism, while still somehow having islam it's crazy
 
363 C.E/1116 A.U.C He builds libraries everywhere and creates monasteries for his faith to help write more books. One monk decides that copying books is hard. He is an extremely brilliant monk who used to be a general and a philosopher, he decides to use the steam engine and create a type of printing press(not on the level of Gutenberg but still better than hand). The monk's name is Romulus Germanicus Caesar and claims to be descended from Claudius' biological son(Not Nero). Julian decides to use him and his knowledge to sack Persia by accepting him as a general and a possible successor. Julian decides to formally adopt Romulus and allow him to build a roman navy for creating colonies and projecting force into the Indian ocean and Persian gulf.


364 C.E/1117 A.U.C Julian leads campaigns into the Persian capital and executes Shapur II while putting a puppet king controlled by Romulus who in turn was controlled by Julian. This would become Roman tradition to have the co-emperor rule Persia unofficially until some unfortunate events happen. Julian starts to improve the army and invites German tribes over to be taught and converted to Julian Hellenism. These tribes were subsequently Romanized and spread out to increase Roman population base.


365 C.E/1117 A.U.C Julian starts sending out missionaries to deal with the heathen germanic barbarians. He spreads technology and allies with the ones that convert making them vassal states. Zero, Infinity and negative numbers spread to Rome from their colonies in India. Julian also starts decentralizing the empire splitting it into a few different almost autonomous empires, however the king of his region would always respond to the emperor. Similar to persian satrapies.

map of the world circa 1117 A.U.C
upload_2018-6-6_10-35-39.png

blue germanic tribes
red roman empire and colonies
other blue sassanids
 
Reign of Julian 365-369
366 Julian decided to put his plans to discredit Christianity in place. He has one of his most loyal generals Jovian convert to Christianity and break away from the Roman empire. Julian would then enter the palace of Jovian's new state and kill him while he was praying thereby associating Christianity with cowardliness.
367 Julian decides to build schools in every city run by Pontifexs of his new Julian Hellenism. He would give everyone a necessary education while providing them with religious education making them more likely to convert. Now one thing you must know about Julian, is that he thought that the gods told him about the religion in dreams and he was doing the gods' work.
368 Julian instructs his leader of his northern colony in India to meet up with the leader of the Gupta empire. Julian offers him a choice convert to Julian Hellenism and become allies with Rome or fail to convert and we and Persia will destroy you.
369 Julian was found dead in his chambers stabbed to death along with three assassins who he killed. Romulus relentlessly hunts down the killer and finds out it was Jovian who Julian allowed to survive in exile. It had turned out that the plot to kill Julian was only to restore Christianity to it's former dominance.
Reign of Romulus 369-
369 Romulus responds to this by outlawing Christianity and all mystery cults. He makes the official state religion Julian Hellenism, and ruthlessly exiles and executes Christians and those initiated in mystery cults. He later outlaws all types of paganism. Romulus is obsessed with technology. He learns of a new black rock that burns 10 times better than wood and uses it to power his printer. By the time of his death, his invention will be as good as the Chinese woodblock printer.
 
The thing is, that sense of 'monotheism' resembles nothing so much as certain types of Vaishnavist Hinduism. It's extremely qualified, elitist in an important sense (meaning practitioners are going to say 'the peasants can worship however they want, they can never know the Real Truth like We do'), and NOT so deeply exclusivist as Christianity was to eliminate somewhat traditional worship of the gods.

Traditional religion was not as weak in the 4th century as people seem to think. It was changing, but religion had never been a static entity in the Greco-Roman world before this. An organized pagan 'church', modeled after Julian's experiences with Christianity, could certainly have been a durable institution that found roots in a still vibrant paganism. It took centuries of conscious effort for Roman and sub-Roman authorities to root out paganism in the Mediterranean, this is NOT a dieing religious tradition. Not by a long shot.
Yeah, but..Zr. life isn't Crusader Kings II. Reforming a religion just doesn't happen this way.
Non-Abrahamic religions have turned from a disorganized religion into a codified, organized one with state sponsorship before. For example, Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism in many parts of Persia and the Near East was quite decentralized, localized, and polytheistic until the Sassanian era. In the Achaemenian and Hellenistic eras, local pantheons were sponsored alongside Zoroastrianism. In the Arsacid/Parthian era, Greek and Iranic deities were even worshiped side-by-side, and regional variations and cult-deities rose in many areas.

It was only in the Sassanian era that Zoroastrianism became codified and the organized state religion of Persia, and the Avesta, which was passed down orally for many years, is only confirmed to have been recorded in a written form by the 5th or 6th century. Significant, and for the most part centralized, changes in Zoroastrianism continued throughout the Sassanian period. Two new holy centers were created for proto-nationalist reasons, the Great Fires in Pars and Media, to decrease the importance of those that were prominent in the Parthian era and informally condemn the Parthian predecessors; and the association of each Great Fire was changed, with the remaining Parthian Great Fire being demoted to represent farmers, the other two new Great Fires declared to represent the more prestigious warriors and magi. New services and holy days were established, and old texts were revised and compiled into a codified form. The priesthood became far more powerful than before and became intertwined with the Sassanian state bureaucracy.

Further changes also occurred in Zoroastrianism after the Islamic conquests, when further external stress was placed on the faith. The transcription and composition of a number of apologetic texts in that period was supported not strictly by priests alone, but also by remaining Zoroastrian noblemen.
 
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