Julian Lives Brainstorm

Alright everyone! Voting is over. Julian won out. So then, let’s talk about ideas that you guys have for how he could be more successful as a ruler, and whatever insane random ideas you have for down the line. I plan to spend the rest of this year writing this timeline, so I am hoping to get at least 500 years in. What do you guys want to see? Gaelic Normandy? Norse Azerbaijan? Alans as the primary ruling elite of Germany? Let me know in the comments.

My PoD is set in stone, and it’s not something I am going to reveal until the timeline is posted.
 
Buddhist steppe nomads (Turks/Huns/Alans or something) who invade into Europe and carve out a Magyar/Bulgar-style empire would be pretty cool. Not really related to POD though. Looking forward to this TL. It's a classic POD, but I don't think I've ever seen it pulled off well.
 
A Hunnic dynasty (/ies) (e.g. the Hephthalites/White Huns, or Alchon Huns) taking over Persia and/or Northern India.

One or more Christian kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula.
 

kholieken

Banned
- stronger diocesan caesar as subordinate to Augusti
- early division of power with judiciary and censorate to rival civil administration
- church council that made toleration goals of christian church
- ban on enslavement if Christians or Roman citizens
- Parthian resurgences as result of Ctesiphon campaign.
- ASB scenario : earlier medieval warm period to allow Roman Empire recover prosperity
- earlier Muslim agricultural revolution
 
Third Temple Judaism and a restoration of the Jewish kingdom, as he had plans to restore the Jerusalem Temple.
Perhaps. I’m skeptical as to how the Jews might respond to this point as it doesn’t line up with prophecy. Didn’t stop them from establishing the State of Israel, though 🤷🏽‍♂️. The Rabbis had very much taken the reigns of the religion I think back then as a class of mystic sages. Rabbi Akiva and the like had been “Descending into the Garden” since the 2nd century CE already, with the ritual practice of the priests being a distant memory.

Buddhist steppe nomads (Turks/Huns/Alans or something) who invade into Europe and carve out a Magyar/Bulgar-style empire would be pretty cool. Not really related to POD though. Looking forward to this TL. It's a classic POD, but I don't think I've ever seen it pulled off well.

I don’t know why, but I’ve always really liked the idea of Turkicizing Manchuria/Korea, moving the Mongols into Central Asia and potentially the Pannonian Basin, and having the Magyars along for the ride the way the Turks were IOTL (so, Magyars in the Middle East, Central Asia, and India). It might be a little too late at the point of the POD to have this however because the Huns seem to have been almost certainly Turkic-speaking and the Magyars were already tagging along behind them.

Buddhism being more prevalent in the Middle East I think is very workable, especially if it’s going to be syncretized with a surviving form of Mesopotamian Paganism. That might actually make for an interesting religion that could arise in RESPONSE to Buddhism and Docetist brands of Christianity, perhaps with a smattering of the ecstatic revelation of the Montanists in Phrygia. Perhaps the Assyrians cannibalize Christianity and Buddhism as forms of Ancestor Worship, the way the Japanese have (with the latter). Buddha and Christ are different understandings of manifestations of enlightenment from different traditions, and because of course the Christ is a spirit that comes over man, there can be multiple Christs who can give revelation through ecstatic rituals (as I’m Vodoun), including people in your own family. Worship of this figure however does not exclude you from proper Theurgy. So, you could end up with a similar system to Japan in which the majority of people participate in public polytheistic rituals whilst identifying with the general philosophy of Buddhism/Christianity, or perhaps a new scripture that syncretizes them both.

Anyways, I also really like surviving Alans in France, but also Livonian itinerants in the Middle East who were brought with the establishment of a Norse kingdom in Azerbaijan or Gilan/Mazandaran.

A Hunnic dynasty (/ies) (e.g. the Hephthalites/White Huns, or Alchon Huns) taking over Persia and/or Northern India.

One or more Christian kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula.
I would like the Hephthalites/Alchon Huns to go for China, if that is at all possible. I think surviving Iranian-speakers who are more Caucasoid in Qinghai would be very interesting.

As far as Christianity in the Arabian Peninsula, I am a firm believer in the Kenite hypothesis and I have read Ditlef Nielsen’s book on Arabian Lunar Religion and I think that Yahweh actually originated in Yemen, so having Christianity fall back to Yemen from whence it might try to spread through Iran and into India could be very interesting. Ultimately, I want all Abrahamism to be incorporated into polytheism or just disappear in the timeline.

- stronger diocesan caesar as subordinate to Augusti
- early division of power with judiciary and censorate to rival civil administration
- church council that made toleration goals of christian church
- ban on enslavement if Christians or Roman citizens
- Parthian resurgences as result of Ctesiphon campaign.
- ASB scenario : earlier medieval warm period to allow Roman Empire recover prosperity
- earlier Muslim agricultural revolution
I’m curious, how much do you think a stronger diocesan caesar would help and why? I need to do a lot more reading about the structure of government and such of the period.

I think that this is a good idea, because I think it will foment more discord amongst the Christians and cause further polarization, which is what Julian seems to have wanted.

Banning the enslavement of Roman citizens or at least severely restricting it is fine, but I don’t see why Christians would be treated with special care under Julian’s administration.

I’m not sure yet what I want to do with his Persian campaign, but I actually really like the Sassanians at least for their aesthetic. I’d like to see them expand eastward a little more, into Central Asia and India.

There will be no Muslims of course, but we don’t necessarily need them for a number of the inventions they put forward to happen. I could see something like that coming out of Roman Africa, though.
 
I would like the Hephthalites/Alchon Huns to go for China, if that is at all possible. I think surviving Iranian-speakers who are more Caucasoid in Qinghai would be very interesting.
Well, they could settle first over the Tarim Basin and use it as their base for raiding China.

Anyways, I also really like surviving Alans in France
Yees, that would be very interesting!
but also Livonian itinerants in the Middle East who were brought with the establishment of a Norse kingdom in Azerbaijan or Gilan/Mazandaran.
Another PoD could be a Varangian settlement after they conquered Atil (the capital of the Khazars)
 
Have him deal with the gothic crisis quickly before it spirals out of control if Julian commits the mistake of valens he will at best be deposed as Shapur II is still alive and will love to take advantage of the crisis especially if Julian managed to keep the gain of galerius
 
Well, they could settle first over the Tarim Basin and use it as their base for raiding China.


Yees, that would be very interesting!

Another PoD could be a Varangian settlement after they conquered Atil (the capital of the Khazars)
They would need to settle there indeed, or in the Hexi Corridor.

Now, I’m not sure if they survive as a group in Gaul. I’m thinking the Mediterranean and Northern Europe develop as separate civilizations with Gaul as a sort of intermediary and the British Isles as more or less its own thing. The Alans in Gaul would be like the Franks in France. They give their name to the kingdom, but the cities still generally speak Romance languages while Gaulish survives mostly in the countryside, and the elites speak Alanic for a while and then switch over to Romance or Gaulish depending on the demographics of their area. The royal names will all still be Alanic though, and the country would be called Alania or Elàgna, something like that.

The Khazars are a later development that I want to try and avoid, personally.

Have him deal with the gothic crisis quickly before it spirals out of control if Julian commits the mistake of valens he will at best be deposed as Shapur II is still alive and will love to take advantage of the crisis especially if Julian managed to keep the gain of galerius

The Goths were a huge part of the formation of Germanic religion as it comes down to us today, so I don’t want to screw them over terribly. It would be very interesting to put them somewhere else, though. I’m actually a fan of swapping China and Europe’s dates a little bit, so I was thinking the Eastern and Western Empires are entirely conquered at some point and then the empire resurrects itself later the way the Chinese did after the Yuan. So… maybe Goths in Anatolia? Egypt? Mesopotamia? As long as some of them make it back to Scandinavia to bring what they’ve learned home.
 
Now, I’m not sure if they survive as a group in Gaul. I’m thinking the Mediterranean and Northern Europe develop as separate civilizations with Gaul as a sort of intermediary and the British Isles as more or less its own thing. The Alans in Gaul would be like the Franks in France. They give their name to the kingdom, but the cities still generally speak Romance languages while Gaulish survives mostly in the countryside, and the elites speak Alanic for a while and then switch over to Romance or Gaulish depending on the demographics of their area. The royal names will all still be Alanic though, and the country would be called Alania or Elàgna, something like that.
Fair enough.

Anyway. More Viking settlements over the Volga River or in the Mediterranean would be interesting.
 
I actually made several posts about this already in an earlier thread but since I consider them very relevant I’ll just re-quote myself.
Structure of the new Greco-Roman Religion

Julian would create an organized polytheistic ecumene to perpetuate a new religion of “Hellenism” which would refer to Greco-Roman polytheism as a whole, or it would just be called “Religio Romana” but Julian was using Hellenic theology and philosophy as a backbone for his reformation in general so I’ll just call it Hellenism. The emperor is Pontifex Maximus, the supreme authority on state organized religious activities and such, who had the sole privilege of appointing the High Priests of the provinces, who would oversee the organization of funds, festivals, and local rites along with their daily priestly duties as well as the perpetuation of the new Hellenist religion. A system of organized charity based on Euergetism would be the privilege of the priests and their assistants, which would spread the religions popularity among the lower classes. Other ethnic religions like the Egyptian and the Syrian/Canaanite would also be apart of this process but Hellenism would maintain its focus as a Greco-Roman religion, and as a whole Egypt and Syria either retain much of their Christian elements with a notable Hellene/pagan plurality, or Christianity is eroded away in favor of Hellenism and Christians move shop to Persia or Armenia. The unifying philosophy and theology of the Hellene religion would be Iamblichan Neoplatonism of the kind popular in Athens, which would become an epicenter of the new religion and its philosophy. Unlike the Alexandrian style of Neoplatonism of Plotinus which over emphasized the ability of the mystic himself to personally contact the divine, Iamblichan Neoplatonism essentially just says that the age old rituals popular among the peasantry are themselves lesser mysteries filled with divine power, so it’s easier to co-opt pagan folk religion into Hellenism. Its very likely that a singular body of scripture is devised for the religion that is probably more similar to the Upanishads than the Bible, which would contain many enumerations on things like astrology, Synthemata or ritual symbolism, Theurgy, piety, the symbolic explanation of myths, commentaries on Homeric poetry, etc. I think it would be very akin to Proclus’ Elements of Theology. This religion would obviously be perpetuated by his successors.

This would also accompany civic reform, as Julian wished to make the cities more autonomous (which would exist across a spectrum of success) and its very likely that laws or financial incentives are enacted to force the local curias and the local elites to have more stewardship over their own land and affairs, giving the Emperor more time to focus on frontier issues. He would also cut the cost of the imperial court so there would be less of an imperial court culture during his reign and it would be more austere instead of lavish and extravagant (our modern sensibilities like this but many were quite enamored with the glamour of the Diocletianic god king image that emperors had cultivated). Christianity doesn’t just disappear but as a state religion it’s limited to Ethiopia and Armenia.

Judaism

The Jewish temple would be rebuilt and a relationship first of convenience but later likely one of favorable association would begin between Hellenism and Judaism, and Jews who were still a large plurality of Palestine in the 300s become the dominant element over time. The Jews that don’t recognize the Third Temple could possibly form their own diasporic sect over time.

The Near and Far Future

Assuming that Julian successfully lands a blow to the Persian empire and installs Hormizd as a puppet emperor in Ctesiphon. I don’t know if the other Parthian clans would care that much but for the Sassanians it would be a huge thorn in their side. Nothing crazy like Julian conquering all of Persia would happen that’s just ASB. But I expect the Sassanians to be a mess for a little bit while Julian and his successors build up the Roman Empire with the loot from the East. If (or when) Roman rule collapses in the West the Romanized Germanic kingdoms would adopt Hellenism as their religion instead of Christianity (regardless of missionary activity, in most cases the Germanic rulers adopted Christianity for political reasons). If the east collapses before the west then we could see a possible attempted resurgence of Christianity Theodosius style except more intense as a form of backlash, and there could be a firm division of a Hellene west and Christian east. However by this point it’s more likely that Anatolia and Greece are already Hellenized, in the most successful case Christians are reduced to a mere plurality of Egypt, Syria, and Africa and an urban minority, one Cult among many divided into multiple feuding sects.

Hellenism or similar ways of structuring religion would be adopted by the rulers of various European polities both to shore up legitimacy with the prestige of an ancient Roman legacy, and as a way to centralize spiritual authority in a way that is already familiar to their cultures (Kings operated also as High Priests in Germanic society). Since this doesn't totally eliminate Christianity this could result in unique geographic stratification of religions; Pretty much anything can happen within those bounds; Hellenist or religiously blended ERE, Hellenist WRE rump state in Gaul or Italy, Neoplatonic Gothic Italy, Donatist Amazigh kingdom in Africa, an independent Jewish Arab state in Syria during the later Arabian migration period, maybe even an Arab kingdom covering the ERE ruled by a philosopher god-king, etc. The Age of Exploration that would be started when people in Europe/Africa make contact with the Americas could spread Hellenism further via colonization, but once you get that far into the timeline it’s anybodies game and colonization could even be far less extensive than OTL.

I would also really like to see Kemetic religion enduring in Egypt, Tantric Buddhism in the steppes and eventually influencing the East Slavs and Volga Finns, and a new unusual syncretic religion popping up in the Maghreb (maybe a judaizing Manichaean influenced henotheism with distinctly Libyco-Phoenician practices like bloodletting or sacred prostitution and tattooing)
 
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I actually made several posts about this already in an earlier thread but since I consider them very relevant I’ll just re-quote myself.
Structure of the new Greco-Roman Religion

Julian would create an organized polytheistic ecumene to perpetuate a new religion of “Hellenism” which would refer to Greco-Roman polytheism as a whole, or it would just be called “Religio Romana” but Julian was using Hellenic theology and philosophy as a backbone for his reformation in general so I’ll just call it Hellenism. The emperor is Pontifex Maximus, the supreme authority on state organized religious activities and such, who had the sole privilege of appointing the High Priests of the provinces, who would oversee the organization of funds, festivals, and local rites along with their daily priestly duties as well as the perpetuation of the new Hellenist religion. A system of organized charity based on Euergetism would be the privilege of the priests and their assistants, which would spread the religions popularity among the lower classes. Other ethnic religions like the Egyptian and the Syrian/Canaanite would also be apart of this process but Hellenism would maintain its focus as a Greco-Roman religion, and as a whole Egypt and Syria either retain much of their Christian elements with a notable Hellene/pagan plurality, or Christianity is eroded away in favor of Hellenism and Christians move shop to Persia or Armenia. The unifying philosophy and theology of the Hellene religion would be Iamblichan Neoplatonism of the kind popular in Athens, which would become an epicenter of the new religion and its philosophy. Unlike the Alexandrian style of Neoplatonism of Plotinus which over emphasized the ability of the mystic himself to personally contact the divine, Iamblichan Neoplatonism essentially just says that the age old rituals popular among the peasantry are themselves lesser mysteries filled with divine power, so it’s easier to co-opt pagan folk religion into Hellenism. Its very likely that a singular body of scripture is devised for the religion that is probably more similar to the Upanishads than the Bible, which would contain many enumerations on things like astrology, Synthemata or ritual symbolism, Theurgy, piety, the symbolic explanation of myths, commentaries on Homeric poetry, etc. I think it would be very akin to Proclus’ Elements of Theology. This religion would obviously be perpetuated by his successors.

This would also accompany civic reform, as Julian wished to make the cities more autonomous (which would exist across a spectrum of success) and its very likely that laws or financial incentives are enacted to force the local curias and the local elites to have more stewardship over their own land and affairs, giving the Emperor more time to focus on frontier issues. He would also cut the cost of the imperial court so there would be less of an imperial court culture during his reign and it would be more austere instead of lavish and extravagant (our modern sensibilities like this but many were quite enamored with the glamour of the Diocletianic god king image that emperors had cultivated). Christianity doesn’t just disappear but as a state religion it’s limited to Ethiopia and Armenia.

Judaism

The Jewish temple would be rebuilt and a relationship first of convenience but later likely one of favorable association would begin between Hellenism and Judaism, and Jews who were still a large plurality of Palestine in the 300s become the dominant element over time. The Jews that don’t recognize the Third Temple could possibly form their own diasporic sect over time.

The Near and Far Future

Assuming that Julian successfully lands a blow to the Persian empire and installs Hormizd as a puppet emperor in Ctesiphon. I don’t know if the other Parthian clans would care that much but for the Sassanians it would be a huge thorn in their side. Nothing crazy like Julian conquering all of Persia would happen that’s just ASB. But I expect the Sassanians to be a mess for a little bit while Julian and his successors build up the Roman Empire with the loot from the East. If (or when) Roman rule collapses in the West the Romanized Germanic kingdoms would adopt Hellenism as their religion instead of Christianity (regardless of missionary activity, in most cases the Germanic rulers adopted Christianity for political reasons). If the east collapses before the west then we could see a possible attempted resurgence of Christianity Theodosius style except more intense as a form of backlash, and there could be a firm division of a Hellene west and Christian east. However by this point it’s more likely that Anatolia and Greece are already Hellenized, in the most successful case Christians are reduced to a mere plurality of Egypt, Syria, and Africa and an urban minority, one Cult among many divided into multiple feuding sects.

Hellenism or similar ways of structuring religion would be adopted by the rulers of various European polities both to shore up legitimacy with the prestige of an ancient Roman legacy, and as a way to centralize spiritual authority in a way that is already familiar to their cultures (Kings operated also as High Priests in Germanic society). Since this doesn't totally eliminate Christianity this could result in unique geographic stratification of religions; Pretty much anything can happen within those bounds; Hellenist or religiously blended ERE, Hellenist WRE rump state in Gaul or Italy, Neoplatonic Gothic Italy, Donatist Amazigh kingdom in Africa, an independent Jewish Arab state in Syria during the later Arabian migration period, maybe even an Arab kingdom covering the ERE ruled by a philosopher god-king, etc. The Age of Exploration that would be started when people in Europe/Africa make contact with the Americas could spread Hellenism further via colonization, but once you get that far into the timeline it’s anybodies game and colonization could even be far less extensive than OTL.

I would also really like to see Kemetic religion enduring in Egypt, Tantric Buddhism in the steppes and eventually influencing the East Slavs and Volga Finns, and a new unusual syncretic religion popping up in the Maghreb (maybe a judaizing Manichaean influenced henotheism with distinctly Libyco-Phoenician practices like bloodletting or sacred prostitution and tattooing)

I do rather like most of this. Particularly the bits about Julian’s reign and religious reforms. He was promising more action against the Christians after his Persian campaign however, so I doubt he is going to allow Armenia to continue to sponsor Christianity at the expense of its traditional religion as Armenia would be a client state at least, but probably a province. I’m thinking things get very bad for Christians under his successor. Full on Diocletian-style persecution no, but they will be a seriously discriminated against minority and will probably be fleeing mostly to Iran and down to Ethiopia, which will give Ethiopia a serious boost with all the brain power of middle class Christians from Roman Egypt especially. So, more Nubian Greeks and a greater Hellenization of the area. I could see an Aksumite conquest of Yemen resulting in the syncretization of Rahman and Shams with Jesus and Mary as well. This would make for an earlier Cult of Mary, and this almost Shakti-like form of Christianity might then spread to India through the Indian Ocean Trade.

These are interesting ideas for North Africa though, I’ll have to think about them. The goal is to ultimately crush Abrahamism in Europe and in the Eurosphere, which includes Roman Africa. It might not be crushed very quickly, though. Certainly no Jewish Arab state in Syria. There will be a large scale resurrection of Semitic Paganism in the region.

I like the idea of Germanic civilization developing in contrast to the the Mediterranean civilization that Greece and Rome can be thought of as continuations of, with Gaul being an intermediary in perhaps the same sense that Southeast Asia is an intermediary between Chinese and Indian civilization, with Vietnam more Sinicized and Cambodia, Thailand and Burma more Indianized.

I do very much like Tantric Buddhism being influential in Central Asia and we could even spread that to Scandinavia proper where it is incorporated into the emerging Germanic religion with Human Consciousness at its center.
 
I do rather like most of this. Particularly the bits about Julian’s reign and religious reforms. He was promising more action against the Christians after his Persian campaign however, so I doubt he is going to allow Armenia to continue to sponsor Christianity at the expense of its traditional religion as Armenia would be a client state at least, but probably a province. I’m thinking things get very bad for Christians under his successor. Full on Diocletian-style persecution no, but they will be a seriously discriminated against minority and will probably be fleeing mostly to Iran and down to Ethiopia, which will give Ethiopia a serious boost with all the brain power of middle class Christians from Roman Egypt especially. So, more Nubian Greeks and a greater Hellenization of the area. I could see an Aksumite conquest of Yemen resulting in the syncretization of Rahman and Shams with Jesus and Mary as well. This would make for an earlier Cult of Mary, and this almost Shakti-like form of Christianity might then spread to India through the Indian Ocean Trade.

These are interesting ideas for North Africa though, I’ll have to think about them. The goal is to ultimately crush Abrahamism in Europe and in the Eurosphere, which includes Roman Africa. It might not be crushed very quickly, though. Certainly no Jewish Arab state in Syria. There will be a large scale resurrection of Semitic Paganism in the region.

I like the idea of Germanic civilization developing in contrast to the the Mediterranean civilization that Greece and Rome can be thought of as continuations of, with Gaul being an intermediary in perhaps the same sense that Southeast Asia is an intermediary between Chinese and Indian civilization, with Vietnam more Sinicized and Cambodia, Thailand and Burma more Indianized.

I do very much like Tantric Buddhism being influential in Central Asia and we could even spread that to Scandinavia proper where it is incorporated into the emerging Germanic religion with Human Consciousness at its center.
On Christian Persecution
I don’t necessarily believe that the political will exists in Julian or his immediate successors to intensely persecute Christian individuals beyond enumerating on what they already planned; Banning them for being private tutors (basically barring them from educating the next generation of Romans), divorcing them from administrative positions, etc. In places like Alexandria the later events of the 380s-400s happen VERY differently, no destroying of the Serapaeum, no murder of Hypatia who probably goes onto becoming a historic philosopher in the Alexandrian school of Neoplatonism. A lot of violence might come from Christians against other sects of Christians, since one of Julian’s biggest policies was allowing different Heresies to coexist near each other by rescinding banishments. The Donatists in Africa for example hated and persecuted the Chalcedonian populations of their local areas when he allowed them to return IIRC.

Germanics
Germanic Civilization I think is going to be divided into gradients between the Continental Germanics who will be very influenced by Roman and Migration era cultural movements and Scandinavia which adheres to far older modes of social and political organization (i think politically it might develop like OTL though since the consolidation of Scandinavian realms into larger kingdoms began before Christianization). Gaul as a transitory area is sensible as it was OTL; If Gaul is conquered by a migration era Germanic nation or a Germanizing group then we will probably see modes of political organization very similar to the Merovingian franks. In Merovingian Gaul kingship and society was organized very much based on migration era Germanic attitudes of the king as the chief-warrior, leader of the war band and representative of his warrior nobles. Neoplatonism in particular the Mysteries of Mithras will be able to grant these rulers an esoteric legitimacy while also contributing to the kingly aura as the chief God of warriors and expanding empires. There’s actually a very interesting relief in a Frankish church (which one escapes me) of the Goddess Isis Pelagia holding a cornucopia (fertility) and surrounded by a Thiasos of cherubs, nymphs, and Satyrs. Diana would also likely become a Pan-western European Goddess since even into the medieval era she was conflated with dozens of local Goddesses including Germanic, Celtic, and Iberian Goddesses (and Hecate-Selene). In Gaul I think a cult of Sol-Mithras and Diana would be very popular among the nobles with Diana-Luna or Isis being the goddess of commoners (Diana being more commonly worshipped in the countryside).

European Vajrayana Buddhism
Before I spitballed it I never actually thought about it, but Scandinavian & Finnic polytheism is very comparable with Tantric Buddhism and other Vedic-Magadhan traditions; An emphasis on religious ecstasy and the warrior initiatory society who use substances to ascend to higher consciousness (Vedic), Odin/Woden is practically a Yogi or Sadhu, meditation like practices (Seidr and the warrior trance of the Berserkers). In fact I just god the weirdest idea cocktail of a cult of Odin the Yogi or Pashayogi (Yogi hanged by a noose) who is essentially a divine Tantra practitioner, an androgynous divine being with a singular consciousness who transcended the cycle of incarnation like a Bodhisattva, a warrior, a seer, a master of runes and Seidberendr who weaves the power of fate and is therefor all knowing and alters the fate of living beings or destroy their ignorance (which could also tie into a berserker cult with him having the power to turn men into beasts and also enlighten them back to manhood).

Mediterranean Saint Cults
In the Eurosphere (if the world ends up Asiacentric it could be called the Far West) a concept very parallel to Saints will develop as during the 4th Century and onward Neoplatonist philosophers were emerging as a class of philosopher-priests who were also miracle workers. Plotinus for example was said to be able to deflect ”Star rays” launched at him by an evil sorcerer which is a super badass miracle, Iamblichus was credited with miracles, Proclus healed Asclepigenia. And even though Julian seemed to envision his priesthood as a male thing Neoplatonists were very inclusive of women in their education and teachings (even if Neoplatonists were very hung up about human sexuality and believed women who weren’t fertile should just become sworn to celibacy). Africa and Mauritania were among the least romanized provinces, so whatever comes from there will have heavy Libyan-Phoenician influence. In fact Africa will have a strong tradition of mystic saints like the OTL Marabouts who originate from older Libyan influences.
 
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On Christian Persecution
A lot of violence might come from Christians against other sects of Christians, since one of Julian’s biggest policies was allowing different Heresies to coexist near each other by rescinding banishments. The Donatists in Africa for example hated and persecuted the Chalcedonian populations of their local areas when he allowed them to return IIRC.

However, pagan violence against Christians would be a part of that as well - especially more so now that the pagans could count on the emperors to turn a blind eye to that, which is exactly what Julian did during his reign.

Germanics
Germanic Civilization I think is going to be divided into gradients between the Continental Germanics who will be very influenced by Roman and Migration era cultural movements and Scandinavia which adheres to far older modes of social and political organization (i think politically it might develop like OTL though since the consolidation of Scandinavian realms into larger kingdoms began before Christianization). Gaul as a transitory area is sensible as it was OTL; If Gaul is conquered by a migration era Germanic nation or a Germanizing group then we will probably see modes of political organization very similar to the Merovingian franks. In Merovingian Gaul kingship and society was organized very much based on migration era Germanic attitudes of the king as the chief-warrior, leader of the war band and representative of his warrior nobles. Neoplatonism in particular the Mysteries of Mithras will be able to grant these rulers an esoteric legitimacy while also contributing to the kingly aura as the chief God of warriors and expanding empires. There’s actually a very interesting relief in a Frankish church (which one escapes me) of the Goddess Isis Pelagia holding a cornucopia (fertility) and surrounded by a Thiasos of cherubs, nymphs, and Satyrs. Diana would also likely become a Pan-western European Goddess since even into the medieval era she was conflated with dozens of local Goddesses including Germanic, Celtic, and Iberian Goddesses (and Hecate-Selene). In Gaul I think a cult of Sol-Mithras and Diana would be very popular among the nobles with Diana-Luna or Isis being the goddess of commoners (Diana being more commonly worshipped in the countryside).

That would probably take a while, though - if the establishment of Germanic kingdoms goes as in OTL, Goths and Vandals might reject that syncretism at first as a way to keep themselves distinct from their Roman subjects (which was why Arianism lasted so long among them).
 
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However, pagan violence against Christians would be a part of that as well - especially more so now that the pagans could count on the emperors to turn a blind eye to that, which is exactly what Julian did during his reign.
That is true, but it would be pretty limited to urban areas. Even with the OTL Christian violence against pagans (and the Christian violence against rural temples during the reign of Theodosius that pagans won’t be replicating just due to demographics ITTL) and extremely draconian laws regarding practicing Paganism (which were rarely enforced, which is why they needed to be re-issued so many times by successive emperors) Paganism had a pretty long and protracted decline. And while at this time Christianity is not anywhere near as demographically numerous as Paganism, I still don’t think roman Christianity will be wiped out within two generations under most circumstances (but also I’m not writing the TL, and it’s not impossible). I generally see it playing out like this; on the occasion pagan mob violence will happen against Christians, the emperors will side with the pagans, and the Christian community of whatever city that’s in will basically go into free fall as their institutions are destroyed and they retreat to the private sphere. In most cases the demographic decline will be due to a total funneling of resources away from them, and with charity and welfare no longer Christian monopolies that draws the urban & rural poor further away from Christianity.
That would probably take a while, though - if the establishment of Germanic kingdoms goes as in OTL, Goths and Vandals might reject that syncretism at first as a way to keep themselves distinct from their Roman subjects (which was why Arianism lasted so long among them).
This I also agree on. In fact Germanic & Roman culture might coexist parallel each other in post-Roman Western Europe for much longer than it did OTL. But I very much think that would happen within the 500 year timeframe specified by OP.
 
On Christian Persecution
I don’t necessarily believe that the political will exists in Julian or his immediate successors to intensely persecute Christian individuals beyond enumerating on what they already planned; Banning them for being private tutors (basically barring them from educating the next generation of Romans), divorcing them from administrative positions, etc. In places like Alexandria the later events of the 380s-400s happen VERY differently, no destroying of the Serapaeum, no murder of Hypatia who probably goes onto becoming a historic philosopher in the Alexandrian school of Neoplatonism. A lot of violence might come from Christians against other sects of Christians, since one of Julian’s biggest policies was allowing different Heresies to coexist near each other by rescinding banishments. The Donatists in Africa for example hated and persecuted the Chalcedonian populations of their local areas when he allowed them to return IIRC.

I think you're right, here. At this point the Christians have done more than enough however to warrant violent backlash from Pagans, and I imagine their fundamentalism will only get worse under Julian's administration. We forget why Christians were "persecuted" (prosecuted) in the first place, which generally had to do with behavior that was viewed at the time as seditious (akin to taking a knee during the National Anthem today, but much worse), including tearing down temples and defacing statues and monuments. It'll be a long battle for sure, but the demographic issues you raise in my opinion actually will speed up the process. Cities have a tendency to turn on a dime, in my experience. For example, when I moved to D.C. in 2016, everyone was very anti-gun. By 2018, a great many Democrats on the ground there were talking about the importance of firearm ownership and regular training to fight "Nazis". My ENTIRE LIFE they had been talking about "common sense" gun control to restrict the ownership of firearms as much as possible within the confines of the Constitution and then all of the sudden, they were very pro-gun. It threw me for a loop, that's for sure! In my experience, you don't see that kind of rapid change in the countryside. Country people are more "conservative", which as far as I can tell is just the politics of nostalgia. They want things to be the way they were when they were kids ad infinitum, even if that was extremely different from the generation that came before. So, I wouldn't say this process would take more than 50 years, especially with the fundamentalism behavior of Christians that is likely to result from the invitation of the exiled clerics.

Germanics
Germanic Civilization I think is going to be divided into gradients between the Continental Germanics who will be very influenced by Roman and Migration era cultural movements and Scandinavia which adheres to far older modes of social and political organization (i think politically it might develop like OTL though since the consolidation of Scandinavian realms into larger kingdoms began before Christianization). Gaul as a transitory area is sensible as it was OTL; If Gaul is conquered by a migration era Germanic nation or a Germanizing group then we will probably see modes of political organization very similar to the Merovingian franks. In Merovingian Gaul kingship and society was organized very much based on migration era Germanic attitudes of the king as the chief-warrior, leader of the war band and representative of his warrior nobles. Neoplatonism in particular the Mysteries of Mithras will be able to grant these rulers an esoteric legitimacy while also contributing to the kingly aura as the chief God of warriors and expanding empires. There’s actually a very interesting relief in a Frankish church (which one escapes me) of the Goddess Isis Pelagia holding a cornucopia (fertility) and surrounded by a Thiasos of cherubs, nymphs, and Satyrs. Diana would also likely become a Pan-western European Goddess since even into the medieval era she was conflated with dozens of local Goddesses including Germanic, Celtic, and Iberian Goddesses (and Hecate-Selene). In Gaul I think a cult of Sol-Mithras and Diana would be very popular among the nobles with Diana-Luna or Isis being the goddess of commoners (Diana being more commonly worshipped in the countryside).

There's a lot to unpack in here. So, first and foremost, I agree with @Mildtryth when they talk about Germanic identity. The Ostrogothic Kingdom had a pronounced disdain for Romans, who they saw as bookish and effeminate. There were isolated instances of conversion such as that Serapion fellow who was some sort of a Germanic initiate into Neoplatonism and an associate of Julian's... I forget in what capacity. I want to say he was a military commander of sorts of Germanic origin who had taken on the name and come to know Julian during his military expeditions in Germania. Anyways, the point is that the Germans generally respected the material efficiency of Roman society (hence "Romanization" of groups like the Alemanni) but that they generally did not care for Roman morals, social structure, values or even religion by Late Antiquity. I think a comparable situation can be seen amongst many Middle Eastern migrants in The West. They dress like Westerners, they enjoy Western technology, but they don't much care for Western culture at the moment and, well... can you blame them? They're coming from a highly family oriented and religious society to a world where money is God to most people and they'll do literally anything to get it. They're not impressed, and I don't think the Germans were as impressed with Roman culture in Late Antiquity as we like to think they were. They seriously changed Christianity from its earlier form to make it work for them.

I have never heard of this relief, though. That sounds very interesting. I'm thinking that down the line, the Isis might be seen in similar terms as Parvati, with all Goddesses being manifestations of her. There would likely be debate in Hellenism about who the Goddess who represents the Divine Feminine is, with Isis being the most popular option. Thus, her cult simply subsumes the cults of other Goddesses beneath her, as they are all believed to be aspects of the Divine Feminine. Mithras however is quite a distinct God from Sol. Mithras is a Solar God in the sense that he represents the Cleansing Fire, but he is not by any means synonymous with Sol, and that wasn't really the point as I understand it through both my reading and my UPG regarding the Cult of Mithras. Rather, the Cult of Mithras is focused on the Cycle of Being as personified in the Cycle of the Year, with Mithras being the one who starts the cycle over when he kills the Bull, which represents a mature Dionysus, the Oak King, in Northern European interpretations of the concept. The Bull is sacrificed so that the Old Year can die and the New Year can be born. Here, Dionysus represents not the year per se, but our consciousness of it, as he, like Óðinn, is very much a God of Human Consciousness. The idea of the cult therefore is to be on the side of Fate, as Mithras is the one who resets the cycle. Still something that can be incorporated into Sacral Kingship, but it's essentially like making Loki the God of Sacral Kingship, and Germanic religion was quite focused on Freyr in this regard at the time and in the future, if I'm not mistaken. Pre-Migration Germanic religion was quite different from Post-Migration Germanic religion. What comes down to us in the Icelandic Lore is a distilled form of syncretism that took place when the Goths migrated to the Balkans and a number of them migrated back to Scandinavia which was heavily influenced by Scythian and Orphic material. I think it can be accurately stated that Óðinn is both Mercurial and Dionysian in nature, and Loki is obviously loaned from Scythian Shyrdon (known from the Ossetian Nart Sagas).

The reason I think that Christians conflated Diana with so many other deities is because Diana and Artemis are both Goddesses in Greco-Roman religion that are deified aspects of what in my opinion was an older Indo-European Goddess that we see more intact manifestations of in other traditions, like Bendis with the Thracians, Vanth with the Etruscans (the Etruscans seem to have been Anatolian in origin), Freyja in Scandinavia, the Morrígan in Ireland and Devana amongst the Slavs, but also Aphrodite/Venus and Athena/Minerva. The Wise Queen of the Slain, Guide of the Dead, Queen of Witches, Sorceress, Lady of Limbo, Huntress, and Mistress of the Gods. As I said, it's my opinion that Roman and Greek religion divide her aspects up and venerate them separately, which is perfectly valid religious practice, but this means that the Germans and the Celts already have their own understandings here that they will just incorporate the Greco-Roman perspective into, I think.

Before I spitballed it I never actually thought about it, but Scandinavian & Finnic polytheism is very comparable with Tantric Buddhism and other Vedic-Magadhan traditions; An emphasis on religious ecstasy and the warrior initiatory society who use substances to ascend to higher consciousness (Vedic), Odin/Woden is practically a Yogi or Sadhu, meditation like practices (Seidr and the warrior trance of the Berserkers). In fact I just god the weirdest idea cocktail of a cult of Odin the Yogi or Pashayogi (Yogi hanged by a noose) who is essentially a divine Tantra practitioner, an androgynous divine being with a singular consciousness who transcended the cycle of incarnation like a Bodhisattva, a warrior, a seer, a master of runes and Seidberendr who weaves the power of fate and is therefor all knowing and alters the fate of living beings or destroy their ignorance (which could also tie into a berserker cult with him having the power to turn men into beasts and also enlighten them back to manhood).

This is very interesting and generally fits with my understanding of Óðinn as a God of Human Consciousness. I think that the Indian vocabulary would all be translated into Old Norse, though. He might be seen as an avatar of Shiva, or the Norse concept of Shiva. Perhaps he is divided into a triune with his different aspects all representing a single God called Óðinn who is more similar to Shiva.

In the Eurosphere (if the world ends up Asiacentric it could be called the Far West) a concept very parallel to Saints will develop as during the 4th Century and onward Neoplatonist philosophers were emerging as a class of philosopher-priests who were also miracle workers. Plotinus for example was said to be able to deflect ”Star rays” launched at him by an evil sorcerer which is a super badass miracle, Iamblichus was credited with miracles, Proclus healed Asclepigenia. And even though Julian seemed to envision his priesthood as a male thing Neoplatonists were very inclusive of women in their education and teachings (even if Neoplatonists were very hung up about human sexuality and believed women who weren’t fertile should just become sworn to celibacy). Africa and Mauritania were among the least romanized provinces, so whatever comes from there will have heavy Libyan-Phoenician influence. In fact Africa will have a strong tradition of mystic saints like the OTL Marabouts who originate from older Libyan influences.

Agreed on all counts, here.
 
I think you're right, here.
For the rest of this. I don’t think this forum is the place for current political/social commentary at all. And from my experience lurking the mods tend to be strict about these sorts of things so I think it’s best to keep our discussions strictly about the time period.

Regarding the period, I do think Christianity will be forced into the private sphere by the Julian legislation, just that once it’s done so I don’t really think there will be much done structurally after that. Christians will basically become crypto-Christians in the way that pagans became crypto-pagans OTL. For the vast majority of the populace OTL, there was no great struggle between Christianity and Paganism, and Christians as a collective had not inflicted massive institutional trauma to Paganism until the reign of Theodosius when bands of roaming monks invaded the countryside and smashed altars and images, despoiled temples, etc.
The Ostrogothic Kingdom had a pronounced disdain for Romans, who they saw as bookish and effeminate. There were isolated instances of conversion such as that Serapion fellow who was some sort of a Germanic initiate into Neoplatonism and an associate of Julian's... I forget in what capacity. I want to say he was a military commander of sorts of Germanic origin who had taken on the name and come to know Julian during his military expeditions in Germania. Anyways, the point is that the Germans generally respected the material efficiency of Roman society (hence "Romanization" of groups like the Alemanni) but that they generally did not care for Roman morals, social structure, values or even religion by Late Antiquity.
This is also true, I was more speaking to what I think could be synthesized religiously once we start reaching the centuries before the first millennium. The spiritual efficacy of the Greco-Roman gods will essentially have already been grafted onto what would have been sacred sites and specific cultic locations who’s power was demonstrated through the history of the universal Empire at the time and via local traditions (like many healing sanctuaries in France today), believed to have been the result of the blessings of the Gods. In migration era Germanic culture wealth for example was often distributed in temples or religious sanctuaries not to be spent or reduced to money, but simply as a manifestation of the martial ability of the King and his war band (which reminds me of how many Ancient Greek temples were also treasuries). I think that based on historical models there would be a period of ambivalence to Roman religion and institutions, followed by a period of tacit reliance on them which will over time transmute into an adoption of said Religio Romana in ways that specific suit Germanic culture and their own traditions of the warrior king and his elite band of nobles from whom he derived legitimacy (before the Alan’s/Franks/whomever are finally assimilated, only remaining as a warrior elite-nobility who lend their name to whatever new kingdom they’ve formed). Sometimes this might even seem to be contradictory, the Carolingian Frankish empire derided ethnic identifying Romans while also claiming the mantle of Emperor of Rome for example.
 
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For the rest of this. I don’t think this forum is the place for current political/social commentary at all. And from my experience lurking the mods tend to be strict about these sorts of things so I think it’s best to keep our discussions strictly about the time period.

Now sir, I wasn't making a value judgment, I was merely stating my observation of the behavior of different demographics. Cities are breeding grounds of revolutionary ideas and behaviors simply by nature of the proximity of people living in them, which is a big part of what lends people in them to turn on a dime like that. Ideas just don't disseminate to the countryside in the same fashion. Those are changes I've observed in my life time that at first glance boggled my mind, but once I had connected the dots as to why people in cities behave differently from people from more rural areas it made perfect sense. Another thing I would say about these differences is that the sheer volume of people in cities puts people in an environment where their minds are overloaded with too many potential social bonds, so they have to learn to tune people out to a certain extent. This is why country folk like myself have often observed that people in cities have a tendency to be colder and more aloof than people in the countryside, and the ironic social isolation that such information overload causes means that it is easier to change your opinions radically because you don't have the same network of people holding you to a set of values for the survival of your social group. To be concise, living in the country selects for greater sociability because the number of relationships one has to manage is much smaller, and living in cities selects for more individually minded, introverted people because the number of relationships to manage is overwhelming.

How does this pertain to the timeline? Well, I don't think that it would take people nearly as long as we all looking back in a post-Christian world like to think it would to drop Christianity. I think that it would take a couple of generations, but only because of the limited capacity for ideas to travel at the time. When Radagaisus was marching on Rome to sacrifice the Senate, the Christians in Rome suddenly became very devout Pagans and abhorred the name of Jesus until they got the news that Stilicho, himself a Christian, had swooped in and saved the day. Christianity at this point was almost entirely an urban phenomenon most heavily concentrated in the urbanized Greek East. The way that ideologies fluctuate easily in urban environments leads me to believe that this could happen very quickly, in less than a century. Look at how popular fascism and eugenics were in the late 19th and early 20th centuries amongst sophisticated urban folks and then consider what actually advocating such ideas would get you here or on any Subreddit.

I don't think it's set in stone really that there would even be Christianity in general within 200 years of the POD, but I personally think it's more interesting to have it just fall slowly out of vogue and then be assimilated into the religious practice of Axial Age polytheism.

Regarding the period, I do think Christianity will be forced into the private sphere by the Julian legislation, just that once it’s done so I don’t really think there will be much done structurally after that. Christians will basically become crypto-Christians in the way that pagans became crypto-pagans OTL. For the vast majority of the populace OTL, there was no great struggle between Christianity and Paganism, and Christians as a collective had not inflicted massive institutional trauma to Paganism until the reign of Theodosius when bands of roaming monks invaded the countryside and smashed altars and images, despoiled temples, etc.

I think that increasing fundamentalism on the part of the Christian movement being consumed by internal division will beg state interference, either with the more intolerant sects being banned, forcing them into exile, or with edicts of toleration being passed that ban Christians from condemning other Christians, which will cause many of the previously popular brands of Christianity, specifically those with a High Christology, to purity spiral behind closed doors, leading to the rise of Low Christology, Christianity-lite varieties taking precedence. This is probably what informs the movement to assimilate Christianity into Mesopotamian religion as Buddhism is also going to be floating around, which will lend to the Docetist idea of the Christ as a Spirit that comes over man.

I think that based on historical models there would be a period of ambivalence to Roman religion and institutions, followed by a period of tacit reliance on them which will over time transmute into an adoption of said Religio Romana in ways that specific suit Germanic culture and their own traditions of the warrior king and his elite band of nobles from whom he derived legitimacy (before the Alan’s/Franks/whomever are finally assimilated, only remaining as a warrior elite-nobility who lend their name to whatever new kingdom they’ve formed). Sometimes this might even seem to be contradictory, the Carolingian Frankish empire derided ethnic identifying Romans while also claiming the mantle of Emperor of Rome for example.

I think you misunderstand how polytheism works, sir. You seem to be modeling the development of Germanic religion here off of the conversion to Christianity in a post-Roman Europe. There are two problems I see here. For one, the primary focus of polytheism is orthopraxis, not orthodoxy. Many people have many beliefs about the Gods and tell many different stories or different versions of different stories, but that doesn't really affect how we interact with them or that certain Gods demand our respect. When I tell people that I'm a Pagan and they ask what that means, I say that I worship my Elders and their Gods. When telling people how to begin with their Pagan practice (and I'm still learning myself, of course), I tell them to start out with the Gods of their Elders, but to be open to any Gods that might call on you or that you might be interested in from other pantheons for whatever reason. I worship Freyr, Freyja, Frigg, Óðinn, Loki, Njǫrðr, and Cernunnos (who I call An Dia Adharcach), but I also worship Ogma and Saturn (on occasion), Hekátē, and Antínous. My worship of Greco-Roman Gods does not get in the way of the worship of the Gods of my Elders, because as long as I worship my Elders, that link to those pantheons (Germanic and Celtic) isn't broken. We see this in East Asia with Buddhism as well. The Elderworship is an integral part of their religious practice, and as long as correct practice (orthopraxis) is upheld, it doesn't really matter that the people generally identify as "Buddhist", they still participate in their own traditional religion.

So no, I do not see this happening at all. Furthermore, I'm far more interested in the idea of Scytho-Germanic civilization developing in contrast to the civilization of the Mediterranean for ideological reasons. I've been mulling over the idea of Hun chieftain actually conquering the Roman Empire wholesale and behaving like Chinggis Khan/Nurhaci, establishing a Hunnic dynasty, suppressing Greco-Roman culture for over a century and moving multiple different population groups around before a popular backlash that kicks them out after said empire breaks up. The new Roman dynasty would be like a heavily fundamentalist Roman Ming dynasty, and Europe would be divided into Europe and Barbarica to the north. I also think it would be cool to have all the holy relics of of Ancient Rome removed when the Huns raise the city to the ground and have them dragged to their capital, only for them to be fought over and redistributed gradually bay various different successors and successor states. Thus, in Barbarica and Europe alike, stories surrounding these relics would abound. Who has them hidden where, how some were destroyed or lost, others were repurposed. In Europe, stories would be about emperors, generals, and heroic adventurers who penetrated deep into Barbarica to recover them. I can imagine for example the Ancile being melted down into a series of hilts to sacred swords. Perhaps only some of them have been, and others yet still remain. There's a lot of possibilities here, but it makes for a fun narrative representing the clash of the two different civilizations, I think.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I very much like this idea, actually. It could play into an interesting interplay between in Europe in general in terms of culture, religion, philosophy, and language. Religio Romana might get increasingly Egyptified, as Neoplatonism and specifically Iamblichan Neoplatonism was extremely so already, I would argue. Europe might then see Egypt, Greece, and Rome then as the Three Fingers, that is the Three Fingers of God held up in the benedictio latina hand gesture that was common in the imagery of Sabazios-Dionysus, which of course was very much part of Mithraism as remember Mithras is the one who KILLS Sabazios-Dionysus to restart the Cycle of Being, or in this case, the year. The bull being sacrificed in the tauroctony scenes in the Mithraea are representative of Sabazios, who may be equated with the Egyptian Apis Bull. In fact, it does seem that these myths were analogous, as the Bull was thought to be sacrificed at the end of every year in Egypt so to resurrect again as Osiris so that the Cycle could continue. Within the Mithraic imagery, likely of Thracian origin, the Bull is being sacrificed to rise again as Zagreus. Remember that the name Zagreus itself refers to a pit for capturing animals, and he is said to have been ripped apart by the Titans as a child. Here, we might interpret the imagery as possible justification for offering up a bull instead of a youth as a sacrifice, which may then become equated with the myths surrounding Antínous and his sacrifice to save Hadrian's life when he was ill. The Cult of Antínous was widely popular at the time and a competitor to Christianity, especially in the Greek East, and there were places in which he was already equated with Apis-Osiris. So then, we might see the development of special ritual sacrifices of youths who are selected for such a purpose develop in Europe and perhaps also Barbarica in times of dire need instead of the sacrifice as a Bull, which acts as a stand in during times of plenty. Anyways, the Three Fingers of God come into play here as Zagreb's, Dionysus, and Sabazios are scene as symbolizing the Cycle of Being and thus Being Itself, and they are identified with what are believed to be the Three Nations that represent the Three Stages of Formation of European Civilization, being Egypt, Greece, and Rome. In Barbarica, there would be a similar belief (Antínous was widely popular also in Gaul, where he was equated with Belenos), with the Three Nations being Celtic, Germanic, and Scythian. They would see themselves thus as mirror images of each other, and this could feed into various esoteric doctrines surrounding the Nature of Being, where the two civilizations being mirror images stand opposed to one another, with one side needing to break through the other to attain Unity with God, whilst later a doctrine develops of the acceptance of opposing categories in a sort of Yin and Yang fashion (this will probably start in Barbarica) and even later still, one of peace between the two that believes that the acceptance of the image of oneself in the mirror as being part and parcel of the Body of God is necessary for Enlightenment/Henosis, which may itself develop in Europe.

Just an idea, though...
 
The new Roman dynasty would be like a heavily fundamentalist Roman Ming dynasty, and Europe would be divided into Europe and Barbarica to the north.

I don't think it'd turn out like that - it's more likely that the term "Europe" becomes what "Asia" is OTL - just a landmass, without any connotations of being some kind of larger cultural unit - those connotations themselves are derived from the concept of Christendom. At least in the Roman point of view, Europe would probably be divided into Rome, "Germania" and "Scythia".
 
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