Julian Lives Brainstorm

Well the Akkadian polytheism of Harran was very distinctly focused on the Moon God Sin and the mesopotamian astrological deities in general. In fact the Gods of the classical planets were worshipped widely still in southern Mesopotamia as attested to the fact that corruptions of them remained a consistent part of the folk magic of southern Mesopotamia (and in Mandaeism). Many aspects of Mesopotamian polytheism remind me of Abrahamic religion; the Idea of submission to the Gods who created mankind for the purpose of adoring them and to assist in maintaining order across the world, their devotees were intensely devoted to them but also fearful of divine wrath, and also the Mesopotamian Gods were believed to also control demons and disease and be capable of inflicting harm on humans (This is pretty sharply contrasted with the Neoplatonic view of deities). While archeological evidence of cuneiform past the 2nd century doesn’t exist IIRC (at least what’s in the anglophone record that’s been translated, I read somewhere that there’s lots of cuneiform tablets that never got translated due to political instability but can’t remember where so take that with a grain of salt). There was also substantial Hellenistic influences in Seleucid-Arsacid Mesopotamia that didn’t vanish until the Iranicization of the empire under the Sassanians.

That being said it’s not like Mesopotamian polytheism actually vanished by the POD even when Parthian era temples went into decline personal religion was still very much alive. You said you wanted Buddhism to make inroads into the Near east and influence this neo-Mesopotamian polytheism so here’s my idea; The neo-Mesopotamian religion would primarily focus on the Planetary Gods and would be a mystical fusion of folk religion, Neoplatonism, and south Arab mysticism established by fleeing Sabaean priests (in waves). Reincarnation could be taken from Neoplatonism or Buddhism (or a combo of them) with Nergal being a sort of Yama-Hades type wrathful deity figure who controls the cycle of life. The Gods would be seen as having made a covenant with mankind that needs to be upheld to ensure proper order, and if it’s broken humans would invite themselves to the influence of demons or Chaos of some sort. It would remain a localized religious movement until it manages to convert the leader of an Arab tribe who establishes his own kingdom in Mesopotamia. Kings could be the subject of deification or liberation from Fate at the hands of the Gods who are the masters of destiny. Perhaps the Pandaemonium of this religion could be something influenced by the Judaic presence in Mesopotamia, and demons are seen as born of humans own disobedience of the Gods.

We have to remember also that Christians weren't entirely that friendly to clerical literature that didn't stack up with their beliefs or that they didn't use to promote their ideological aims. There could have been a whole body of literature from the time period that was translated from cuneiform that didn't make it past the filter, since Mesopotamian religion was the religion of Babylon, and we know what Christians and Jews thought of said religion.

Now, I like all of this, but I'm thinking more a religion that syncretizes Mesopotamian religion with the idea of incarnations of Gods that manifest in the form of certain mystic teachers, which Jesus, John the Baptist, Mani, and the Buddha might all be thought to be. This might also be influenced by the Zoroastrian idea of khvarenah. I'm not entirely sure how I'll work it yet, but Jesus never said anything explicitly about the worship of idols, and then of course the Talmudic account of him is wildly different from the Christian one, where he is accused of learning mysteries in Egypt and attempting to induce the Jews to idolatry. So, these Mesopotamians might have a very different interpretation of him, one that works in tandem with the Nestorian idea of separate physical and spiritual personages.

I guess the two ideas don't have to necessarily cancel each other out. I like the idea of it remaining localized until an Arab converts (from Christianity, I think), at which point Arabs might start to try and Mesopotamianize their religion as per popular influence.

I think it’s possible but it’s be more likely imo if some of them remained more cloistered and sedentary in remote regions like the Taurus mountains. But it’s not outside the real of possibility, perhaps some cruel Hunnic overlord has a bone to pick with Christians so he declares them to be unable to own land, turning them into wanderers or semi-nomads.

I think the East will actually turn quicker than the West. Remember that Christianity was a largely urban phenomenon and urban populations have a tendency to shift ideologies quicker than rural ones. Besides, the Huns don't conquer Anatolia, I think. It may be rather that the Goths end up in Anatolia and establish their own state there while the Roman Empire survives in the Levant and North Africa exclusively for a while, perhaps conquered the Red Sea Coast of Arabia. The Taurus Mountains as a hold out may be a good idea here, although Armenia would be even better (historical Armenia, not modern Armenia), especially if it's brought back under the control of the Sassanians during this time. The itinerant populations of Christians would be from Western Europe, and I could actually see policies barring them from purchasing land being enacted before the Hunnic Conquest, especially if Julian reigns a long time and his successors continue his policies and/or decide to mix them with those of Diocletian in terms of the religions pomp surrounding the monarchy. Remember that Christians were originally persecuted because refusing to partake in certain state sponsored cults was seen as treasonous, something like taking a knee during the Pledge of Allegiance. Even the Jews sacrificed to the Emperor, so if the Christians remain unwilling to do so, they could be in trouble with the public, even more so if we imagine a period of crisis leading up to the Hunnic Conquest.

- formal organisation into of mystery religions ie the Eleusinian Mysteries, Samothracian Mysteries, Mithraism, etc church like structures that are state organised and not just located on random islands
- Barbarian invasions of the 5th century as the Roman "Sixteen Kingdoms" period
- East/West split as the South/North split in China

1. This might be doable, I'll have to think about it. I'm not sure that's really how those institutions worked, though.
2. Fair enough. There will be a surviving Roman rump state in North Africa, however.
3. Eventually reuniting. I like this idea as well.
 
Now, I like all of this, but I'm thinking more a religion that syncretizes Mesopotamian religion with the idea of incarnations of Gods that manifest in the form of certain mystic teachers, which Jesus, John the Baptist, Mani, and the Buddha might all be thought to be. This might also be influenced by the Zoroastrian idea of khvarenah. I'm not entirely sure how I'll work it yet, but Jesus never said anything explicitly about the worship of idols, and then of course the Talmudic account of him is wildly different from the Christian one, where he is accused of learning mysteries in Egypt and attempting to induce the Jews to idolatry. So, these Mesopotamians might have a very different interpretation of him, one that works in tandem with the Nestorian idea of separate physical and spiritual personages.

I guess the two ideas don't have to necessarily cancel each other out. I like the idea of it remaining localized until an Arab converts (from Christianity, I think), at which point Arabs might start to try and Mesopotamianize their religion as per popular influence.
Well Manichaeism was highly influenced by Babylonic religion so accounting for that and the Iranian influence as well; The succession of prophets could be special spirits sent from the Gods to make sure that humanity maintains the rule of the Gods on earth and to stem the tide of Chaos, with the Religions being established by the previous prophets having been twisted or distorted by their followers. The King could also be a manifestation of this akin to the manichaean Master of Light, somebody chosen by the Gods to uphold order on earth and to perform the essential rituals to renew order (A Viceroy of the Great Gods, to use an Akkadian title). Chaos in this scheme would be a Tiamat-Ahriman like figure that also reminds me of the Aztec Ciptactli, since the world was born from the body of Chaos that would essentially necessitate a constant battle to stop its will from seeping into the created world and undoing it. Keep in mind that as late as Damascius (5th-6th Century) the literature of the Enûma elish could still be described with pretty close precision as Damascius wrote a whole book on the Babylonian creation myth.

This actually sounds vaugely similar to Yezidism and Yarsanism and Mandaeism but more explicitly derived from Mesopotamian-Akkadian polytheism. I could see this new religion (what would it be called? Sabaeanism?) The 7 planets and their Gods (Sin, Shamash, Marduk, Ishtar, Anu, Nabu, Nergal) and the number 7 in general would probably take a mystical significance. The previously mentioned ideas about struggling against Chaos could also be used as spiritual justification for expanding the realms converted to it. Strife and instability caused by political struggle would be seen as something the monarch or chosen of the Great Gods would need to step in and crush to bring order to Chaos, a necessity since the world was born soaked in the blood of Tiamat/Ahriman (sounds like a heavy Metal religion actually).
 
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Well Manichaeism was highly influenced by Babylonic religion so accounting for that and the Iranian influence as well; The succession of prophets could be special spirits sent from the Gods to make sure that humanity maintains the rule of the Gods on earth and to stem the tide of Chaos, with the Religions being established by the previous prophets having been twisted or distorted by their followers. The King could also be a manifestation of this akin to the manichaean Master of Light, somebody chosen by the Gods to uphold order on earth and to perform the essential rituals to renew order (A Viceroy of the Great Gods, to use an Akkadian title). Chaos in this scheme would be a Tiamat-Ahriman like figure that also reminds me of the Aztec Ciptactli, since the world was born from the body of Chaos that would essentially necessitate a constant battle to stop its will from seeping into the created world and undoing it. Keep in mind that as late as Damascius (5th-6th Century) the literature of the Enûma elish could still be described with pretty close precision as Damascius wrote a whole book on the Babylonian creation myth.

This actually sounds vaugely similar to Yezidism and Yarsanism and Mandaeism but more explicitly derived from Mesopotamian-Akkadian polytheism. I could see this new religion (what would it be called? Sabaeanism?) The 7 planets and their Gods (Sin, Shamash, Marduk, Ishtar, Anu, Nabu, Nergal) and the number 7 in general would probably take a mystical significance. The previously mentioned ideas about struggling against Chaos could also be used as spiritual justification for expanding the realms converted to it. Strife and instability caused by political struggle would be seen as something the monarch or chosen of the Great Gods would need to step in and crush to bring order to Chaos, a necessity since the world was born soaked in the blood of Tiamat/Ahriman (sounds like a heavy Metal religion actually).
I actually didn't know Damascius wrote such a book. I've often thought about him before and how desperately sad and lonely he must have felt watching the Hellenistic World commit itself entirely to the madness of Early Christianity, tearing down its own heritage for moral vindication in the present. Catherine Nixey's book The Darkening Age begins with a description of the day he and his followers left Athens.

I rather like your idea here, just with the added caveat that The Seven would be a sort of High Council of Gods, with other Gods in the Semitic pantheons being seen as manifestations of them, with the doctrine of incarnation over time yielding hundreds of incarnations of hundreds of Gods who are either manifestations of The Seven directly or manifestations of their various aspects, or manifestations of aspects of their aspects, worshipped much as saints are within Christianity and the various avatars of different Gods are in Hinduism.

I was also thinking over the last couple of days about having England end up Romance-speaking, perhaps due to greater devastation in Gaul with a Roman rump state holding on after the Hunnic conquest. Perhaps the Gothic Invasion of Britain happens as the result of a William the Conqueror-like figure from Normandy, a Gothicized Gaelic king who invades this Roman rump state some two hundred years after the fall of the Hunnic Empire while the Roman Empire proper will have reclaimed Italy from North Africa. I'm thinking a Romano-Berber dynasty of restorers here.
 
I actually didn't know Damascius wrote such a book
It’s apart of a philosophical text he wrote called Difficulties and Solutions of the First Principle. The names have been Hellenized but they’re pretty notably Sumeric; Tiamat and Apsu are Tauthe and Apason, Moymis is Mummu, Anshar & Kishar are Kissare & Assaros, Illinos is Enlil, Aeos is Enki/Ea in Akkadian.
I rather like your idea here, just with the added caveat that The Seven would be a sort of High Council of Gods, with other Gods in the Semitic pantheons being seen as manifestations of them, with the doctrine of incarnation over time yielding hundreds of incarnations of hundreds of Gods who are either manifestations of The Seven directly or manifestations of their various aspects, or manifestations of aspects of their aspects, worshipped much as saints are within Christianity and the various avatars of different Gods are in Hinduism.
This tracks with Mesopotamian polytheism as dating back to the Sumerians it was believed the Gods convened on a mountainous paradise to hold council with each other.
I was also thinking over the last couple of days about having England end up Romance-speaking, perhaps due to greater devastation in Gaul with a Roman rump state holding on after the Hunnic conquest. Perhaps the Gothic Invasion of Britain happens as the result of a William the Conqueror-like figure from Normandy, a Gothicized Gaelic king who invades this Roman rump state some two hundred years after the fall of the Hunnic Empire while the Roman Empire proper will have reclaimed Italy from North Africa. I'm thinking a Romano-Berber dynasty of restorers here.
I love the idea of romance speaking England or at least romance language taking the place of english with Britain remaining a polyglot Island mixed between Romance, Brythonic, Gaelic, & possibly whatever comes from Viking invaders. A Libyco-Roman Dynasty sounds like a great idea as Africa will be less effected by the devastation of the empire under the Huns and could possibly keep a strong navy based out of Carthage. Perhaps the Mauro-Roman kingdom fills the Roman vacuum in Africa and props themselves up as a Roman successor state pre-restoration.

Do you have any plans for the linguistic situation in Eastern Europe? Because I liked the idea of the Balkans remaining Daco-Thracian with a Greco-Romance lingua Francia in the cities. I myself am super partial to Finns in the Volga & northern Russia not getting absorbed by Slavic speakers since I don’t see many people touching that idea.

You also said you wanted China & Rome to swap fates, so China will be separating into multiple states. But just how many? A handful or many more like in Europe?
 
I think. It may be rather that the Goths end up in Anatolia and establish their own state there while the Roman Empire survives in the Levant and North Africa exclusively for a while, perhaps conquered the Red Sea Coast of Arabia.
I think Romans could still hold southern Hispania.

Perhaps the Gothic Invasion of Britain happens as the result of a William the Conqueror-like figure from Normandy, a Gothicized Gaelic king who invades this Roman rump state some two hundred years after the fall of the Hunnic Empire while the Roman Empire proper will have reclaimed Italy from North Africa. I'm thinking a Romano-Berber dynasty of restorers here.
Would be great if not only the Goths but Vandals and Burgundians disputed for the control of Britain.
 
It’s apart of a philosophical text he wrote called Difficulties and Solutions of the First Principle. The names have been Hellenized but they’re pretty notably Sumeric; Tiamat and Apsu are Tauthe and Apason, Moymis is Mummu, Anshar & Kishar are Kissare & Assaros, Illinos is Enlil, Aeos is Enki/Ea in Akkadian.
I like the sounds of some of these. It might be a little too late, but I would like there to be a surviving Greek-speaking population in Mesopotamia, so it's cool to see the Hellenization of those names.

This tracks with Mesopotamian polytheism as dating back to the Sumerians it was believed the Gods convened on a mountainous paradise to hold council with each other.

Then that's what we'll do. If I remember correctly, Constantine syncretized a lot of solar imagery with Jesus early on, so it may be that a lot of Christian imagery is appropriated for the cults of Shamash and Tammuz. I remember reading through René Salm's blog about Christianity, and his theories about the origins of Jesus in the Cult of Tammuz and the ultimate origins of Christianity might be very useful here.

I love the idea of romance speaking England or at least romance language taking the place of english with Britain remaining a polyglot Island mixed between Romance, Brythonic, Gaelic, & possibly whatever comes from Viking invaders. A Libyco-Roman Dynasty sounds like a great idea as Africa will be less effected by the devastation of the empire under the Huns and could possibly keep a strong navy based out of Carthage. Perhaps the Mauro-Roman kingdom fills the Roman vacuum in Africa and props themselves up as a Roman successor state pre-restoration.

I really do too. I used to love conlanging Romance languages as a kid, so it'll be very fun to come up with a British Romance language. Why will they have broken off before the Hunnic Conquest? Are you thinking there might be too many Christians and Jews there? Cuz it might actually be that the first Lybico-Roman Emperor is a sort of syncretic Christian from North Africa who practices his Christianity alongside Hellenism as part of the functions of his office who then is responsible for suppressing Donatists and Orthodox Christians in North Africa. I actually know a guy in Utah who is a priest at one of the local Krishna temples and a Mormon bishop because he doesn't consider the two religions to be mutually exclusive, so... it's certainly possible for a Christian to have an interpretation like that.

Do you have any plans for the linguistic situation in Eastern Europe? Because I liked the idea of the Balkans remaining Daco-Thracian with a Greco-Romance lingua Francia in the cities. I myself am super partial to Finns in the Volga & northern Russia not getting absorbed by Slavic speakers since I don’t see many people touching that idea.

A lot depends here on how different populations are treated by the Huns when they conquer the area. I haven't looked at the evidence as to whether or not Thracian was widely spoken at this time or not, although I know there's some debate about it. One school argues that the Thracians had been Hellenized, one argues that the language only went extinct with the expansion of Slavic. Dacian was certainly being spoken however, and I would like to actually move them to Portugal under the Huns, as odd as that might sound. I also know that that there was a Romance language, probably based out of Sirmium, that is the primary source of Latin loans in Albanian. I imagine that these people fled into the countryside slowly, following the deterioration of security at the border in the 5th century. I'm reminded of that one Late Roman historian's account of the Greek who lived with the Huns. Now, since the first Hunnic emperor is something of a European Chinggis Khan, he is probably going to have no problem butchering entire cities that don't surrender to him. Sirmium could be one of those cities, or their surrender in light of Constantinople being raised to the ground could facilitate an invasion in which the Illyrians are genocided and end up fleeing en masse to Italy, where it would remain a minority language until the present, with a strangely uneven dispersion (perhaps up in the Apennines mostly, with some as far afield as Turin). This could also be part of a major Germanicization/Iranicization of the Balkans, with Goths, Alans and Sarmatians moving into the area and warring bitterly with the Romans thereafter.

If the people are butchered, then I think that language goes extinct before it ever really leaves a dent on Albanian, but if it survives, it could actually absorb Albanian with time. I also very much like the idea of Pannonian Romance surviving through a sort of religious assimilation of Romans in the area by way of Mithraism actually acting as a means for the religious justification of surrendering to Attila, becoming a major language there in the Pannonian Basin for some time.

As far as Slavs and Finns are concerned, it might be interesting for the Slavs to adopt horse culture and invade Iran later with the Magyars. This way, we get Magyar dynasties in Iran based out of Bactria, and perhaps Slavic dynasties based out of the Fergana Valley as well. I think it would be very interesting to see how these two peoples interact with Buddhism and Manichaeism, personally. That might be pushing it, but hey! If we can have Austronesians in Madagascar IOTL, why the Hell not? Perhaps Baltic spreads as the lingua franca in the south down the Dnieper into Eastern Europe, say, the Carpathian Basin and over to the Elbe, whilst Finnic spreads in Russia?

You also said you wanted China & Rome to swap fates, so China will be separating into multiple states. But just how many? A handful or many more like in Europe?

I want to break Chinese civilization somehow, with a Chinese "Byzantium" holding out perhaps in the South, but with the North evolving into a new, heavily Turkified/Mongolized civilization the way Western Europe was heavily influenced by Germanic culture. They can still speak Sinitic languages, but while there might be a concept of Han identity in the region, I want it to be more like the concept of being a Latin in the Mediterranean in the Middle Ages. In order for it to be a proper Rome analogy however, Southern China will have to convert to some sort of radical new religion that overturns the longheld authority of the Chinese emperors through the Mandate of Heaven. I have no idea how to do this, so I'll have to read about it.

I think Romans could still hold southern Hispania.

Maybe, maybe not. They'll get it all back eventually anyways.

Would be great if not only the Goths but Vandals and Burgundians disputed for the control of Britain.

That will depend on if at least England survives as a Roman rump state and for how long. It could be interesting to have England act as an analogy to Japan in a way. An island off the coast that acts as a sort of microcosm of the Roman Empire, separated, aloof, in a sense frozen in time. I'm reminded of how Chinese fashion came to dominate Japanese dress during the Tang dynasty and the Japanese were extremely conservative with their dress for centuries after. Britain will be a little bit different however with Pictland to the north and constant heckling from Germanic groups in Gaul, Gaels in Ireland and later Scandinavians.
 
In order for it to be a proper Rome analogy however, Southern China will have to convert to some sort of radical new religion that overturns the longheld authority of the Chinese emperors through the Mandate of Heaven. I have no idea how to do this, so I'll have to read about it.
Manicheanism would be the perfect religion to fit this role. IOTL, the next-door Uyghurs converted, so it's not that crazy. Also Manicheanism is cool and has a lot of interesting Gnostic elements.
 
I like the sounds of some of these. It might be a little too late, but I would like there to be a surviving Greek-speaking population in Mesopotamia, so it's cool to see the Hellenization of those names.
The actual names were pretty seamlessly translated from Sumerian to Akkadian to Greek by way of Aramaic. Kishar in Akkadian for example is just Kisar and it wasn’t that different in Aramaic to become Kissare. So even if the local Greeks get absorbed into the Assyrian population the Hellenization of the names might remain.
I really do too. I used to love conlanging Romance languages as a kid, so it'll be very fun to come up with a British Romance language. Why will they have broken off before the Hunnic Conquest? Are you thinking there might be too many Christians and Jews there? Cuz it might actually be that the first Lybico-Roman Emperor is a sort of syncretic Christian from North Africa who practices his Christianity alongside Hellenism as part of the functions of his office who then is responsible for suppressing Donatists and Orthodox Christians in North Africa. I actually know a guy in Utah who is a priest at one of the local Krishna temples and a Mormon bishop because he doesn't consider the two religions to be mutually exclusive, so... it's certainly possible for a Christian to have an interpretation like that.
So I actually suggested this because I mixed up my time tables, the dating of the Mauro-Roman kingdom and the period when Libyan kings and chiefs started a new period of state formation was the late 5th century into the early 6th, so it all fits nicely to happen after the Hunnic conquest. As for the other thing, Christo-Paganism was not that unheard of before the post Constantine state orthodoxy initiated the process of fully separating Christianity bureaucratically from the numerous other cults in the empire. From the correspondence of Hadrian to Servianus we hear;

”Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ.”

A lot depends here on how different populations are treated by the Huns when they conquer the area. I haven't looked at the evidence as to whether or not Thracian was widely spoken at this time or not, although I know there's some debate about it. One school argues that the Thracians had been Hellenized, one argues that the language only went extinct with the expansion of Slavic. Dacian was certainly being spoken however, and I would like to actually move them to Portugal under the Huns, as odd as that might sound. I also know that that there was a Romance language, probably based out of Sirmium, that is the primary source of Latin loans in Albanian. I imagine that these people fled into the countryside slowly, following the deterioration of security at the border in the 5th century. I'm reminded of that one Late Roman historian's account of the Greek who lived with the Huns. Now, since the first Hunnic emperor is something of a European Chinggis Khan, he is probably going to have no problem butchering entire cities that don't surrender to him. Sirmium could be one of those cities, or their surrender in light of Constantinople being raised to the ground could facilitate an invasion in which the Illyrians are genocided and end up fleeing en masse to Italy, where it would remain a minority language until the present, with a strangely uneven dispersion (perhaps up in the Apennines mostly, with some as far afield as Turin). This could also be part of a major Germanicization/Iranicization of the Balkans, with Goths, Alans and Sarmatians moving into the area and warring bitterly with the Romans thereafter.

I‘m personally very partial to the idea that Thracian did not go extinct until at least the period of Slavic expansion but that it had been both Romanized and Hellenized in varying degrees based on the location and context. The Thracian language of the Bessians at least was still numerous enough in the late 6th century it produced a sizable number of monks, who would establish their monastic communities in Palestine and Sinai using their native tongue. Plovdiv also takes its name directly from Thracian as opposed to Philippopolis, so it’s likely imo that Thracian speakers retained their language in the interior of the Haemus and were bi-lingual in Greek and Latin similar to Greek in Egypt, but that the archeological record makes it seem more sparse due to the relatively low literacy rates in the Balkan interior. I like all the ideas presented here, especially Romance surviving in Pannonia.

As far as Slavs and Finns are concerned, it might be interesting for the Slavs to adopt horse culture and invade Iran later with the Magyars. This way, we get Magyar dynasties in Iran based out of Bactria, and perhaps Slavic dynasties based out of the Fergana Valley as well. I think it would be very interesting to see how these two peoples interact with Buddhism and Manichaeism, personally. That might be pushing it, but hey! If we can have Austronesians in Madagascar IOTL, why the Hell not? Perhaps Baltic spreads as the lingua franca in the south down the Dnieper into Eastern Europe, say, the Carpathian Basin and over to the Elbe, whilst Finnic spreads in Russia?
I think it’s supremely interesting, especially liking the idea of Baltic and Finnic spreading and becoming two cultural axis of Eastern Europe. I imagine that a large Baltic state would leave a much larger cultural impact than OTL Lithuania, with the Baltic kingdom being in rivalry with the Finno-Slavic turkified khanates/realms to its east.
I want to break Chinese civilization somehow, with a Chinese "Byzantium" holding out perhaps in the South, but with the North evolving into a new, heavily Turkified/Mongolized civilization the way Western Europe was heavily influenced by Germanic culture. They can still speak Sinitic languages, but while there might be a concept of Han identity in the region, I want it to be more like the concept of being a Latin in the Mediterranean in the Middle Ages. In order for it to be a proper Rome analogy however, Southern China will have to convert to some sort of radical new religion that overturns the longheld authority of the Chinese emperors through the Mandate of Heaven. I have no idea how to do this, so I'll have to read about it.
Well if northern China is momgolified/turkified enough that breaks China already. OTL the Mongols intended to obliterate the western Xia, so maybe steppe warlord leave a much greater devastation of the north China plane, and what remains is a Han population that must fundamentally adapt to a steppe Mongolic culture.
Manicheanism would be the perfect religion to fit this role. IOTL, the next-door Uyghurs converted, so it's not that crazy. Also Manicheanism is cool and has a lot of interesting Gnostic elements.
I second this, it would be interesting to see a Manichaeism that is heavily Sinicized and syncretized with Chinese folk religion become the mercantile religion of the South China Sea, just based on that alone Manichaeism could spread to Indonesia and SEA.
 
The actual names were pretty seamlessly translated from Sumerian to Akkadian to Greek by way of Aramaic. Kishar in Akkadian for example is just Kisar and it wasn’t that different in Aramaic to become Kissare. So even if the local Greeks get absorbed into the Assyrian population the Hellenization of the names might remain.

For some reason, I have it in my head that I want Mesopotamia to be thoroughly Iranianized, or at least the southern portion.

So I actually suggested this because I mixed up my time tables, the dating of the Mauro-Roman kingdom and the period when Libyan kings and chiefs started a new period of state formation was the late 5th century into the early 6th, so it all fits nicely to happen after the Hunnic conquest. As for the other thing, Christo-Paganism was not that unheard of before the post Constantine state orthodoxy initiated the process of fully separating Christianity bureaucratically from the numerous other cults in the empire. From the correspondence of Hadrian to Servianus we hear;

”Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ.”

Ha! I didn't know that. Do you have any reading material you could recommend on the subject?

I‘m personally very partial to the idea that Thracian did not go extinct until at least the period of Slavic expansion but that it had been both Romanized and Hellenized in varying degrees based on the location and context. The Thracian language of the Bessians at least was still numerous enough in the late 6th century it produced a sizable number of monks, who would establish their monastic communities in Palestine and Sinai using their native tongue. Plovdiv also takes its name directly from Thracian as opposed to Philippopolis, so it’s likely imo that Thracian speakers retained their language in the interior of the Haemus and were bi-lingual in Greek and Latin similar to Greek in Egypt, but that the archeological record makes it seem more sparse due to the relatively low literacy rates in the Balkan interior. I like all the ideas presented here, especially Romance surviving in Pannonia.

I'm actually thinking that the Gepids might be the group that produces our Chinggis Khan/Attila analogue. I really like the idea of hybridizing Germanic and Turkic culture, and I'm thinking that during his 50-year reign Julian actually intervenes in the Bosporan Kingdom in the north after a successful campaign in Iran where he helps to stabilize the situation with Ermanaric and the other chiefs. The Romans might help the Goths repel the Huns, which could actually have the Huns backtracking and invading Iran in the next decade. I really like the idea of moving the Magyars into the region, so this could serve as justification here. Anyways, the Gepids might be very cruel to the Thracians. I think that this figure would live some time in the early 6th century, and that his people will have married Freyja (Nerthus) to Turkic Tangrï, and that they would consider Julian to have been an ideal king but the kings that followed to have been decadent usurpers and they would then see it as their obligation to purge the world of decadence, in a similar vein to Chinggis Khan. This could result in the genocide of various different groups of people, so... I'm not sure who will make it out of this guy's reign of terror and who won't. It's kind of up to how he feels...

I think it’s supremely interesting, especially liking the idea of Baltic and Finnic spreading and becoming two cultural axis of Eastern Europe. I imagine that a large Baltic state would leave a much larger cultural impact than OTL Lithuania, with the Baltic kingdom being in rivalry with the Finno-Slavic turkified khanates/realms to its east.

I really like Baltic religion, personally. I have a little trouble with the obvious dualism in Slavic religion. I don't know what I need to do to get the Finns to cooperate with each other more, though. IOTL, they seem to have been intensely tribal and not too keen on forming large tribal coalitions, which made them easy pickings for Scandinavians.
Well if northern China is mongolified/turkified enough that breaks China already. OTL the Mongols intended to obliterate the western Xia, so maybe steppe warlord leave a much greater devastation of the north China plane, and what remains is a Han population that must fundamentally adapt to a steppe Mongolic culture.

Han pastoralists? That's an interesting idea indeed, considering that it seems that the Turks were originally agriculturalists in Manchuria who adopted horse culture and then expanded westward.

I second this, it would be interesting to see a Manichaeism that is heavily Sinicized and syncretized with Chinese folk religion become the mercantile religion of the South China Sea, just based on that alone Manichaeism could spread to Indonesia and SEA.
Manicheanism would be the perfect religion to fit this role. IOTL, the next-door Uyghurs converted, so it's not that crazy. Also Manicheanism is cool and has a lot of interesting Gnostic elements.

I... don't know... I have a massive hate-boner for Manichaeism, and I'm not even really sure why. Just the whole idea of the Hearers offering up food to the Elect to release the light... it just seems... ridiculous, idk. I was thinking it could be interesting for an indigenous Chinese religion to gain sway, but I guess for it to be a proper analogue to what happened in Europe, it has to be some sort of foreign mystery cult. Maybe... maybe.
 
I... don't know... I have a massive hate-boner for Manichaeism, and I'm not even really sure why. Just the whole idea of the Hearers offering up food to the Elect to release the light... it just seems... ridiculous, idk. I was thinking it could be interesting for an indigenous Chinese religion to gain sway, but I guess for it to be a proper analogue to what happened in Europe, it has to be some sort of foreign mystery cult. Maybe... maybe.
Aw, I think Manichaeism is cool. The reason the Hearers offer the food to the elect is that Mani thought harvesting food was basically plant murder, so the pure Elect couldn't be tainted with that, but the Hearers would be forgiven by the Elect and have their sin washed away. That's really weird, but it's also really interesting and cool. Also the synthesis of Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Gnosticism is fascinating.

If you really don't want to do Manichaeism, maybe you could create a new religion inspired by it or by Buddhism or something? Or hell, you could make them Christian. That would be a funny bit of symmetry.
 
Ha! I didn't know that. Do you have any reading material you could recommend on the subject?
Beyond primary sources I suppose Between Pagan and Christian by Christopher P. Jones covers the phenomena of “double faith” in late antiquity to the early medieval period pretty well.
I really like Baltic religion, personally. I have a little trouble with the obvious dualism in Slavic religion. I don't know what I need to do to get the Finns to cooperate with each other more, though. IOTL, they seem to have been intensely tribal and not too keen on forming large tribal coalitions, which made them easy pickings for Scandinavians.
Well the bulk of the Volga Finns didn’t disappear as a distinct group until the 10th century when they were assimilated by Slavic settlers after being conquered by the Kievan Rus. If say the Volga Bolghars formed a powerful khanate that conquered the upper Volga the various Finnic groups could be integrated with the Turkic populations and continue to exist as a distinct group, so in that scenario the entire region from the lower to the upper Volga would be Turko-Finnic in character and dominated by the Bolghars and the Khazars in the 9th-10th century (this is assuming the Rus are unable to conquer the Khazars ITTL).

I... don't know... I have a massive hate-boner for Manichaeism, and I'm not even really sure why. Just the whole idea of the Hearers offering up food to the Elect to release the light... it just seems... ridiculous, idk. I was thinking it could be interesting for an indigenous Chinese religion to gain sway, but I guess for it to be a proper analogue to what happened in Europe, it has to be some sort of foreign mystery cult. Maybe... maybe.
Aside from sounding much weirder this is basically the approach of OTL Mahayana Buddhism, that the common sangha are unable to achieve enlightenment due to the burdens of everyday life has on their karma so they essentially get the higher priesthood to take up the cultivation of good karma for them. If you don’t favor Manichaeism even though I find it very likely, then apparently Hinduism was active in south China during the Tang period, a Hindu derived millenarian cult (likely something of the Saiva or Tantric variety) could take off and become heavily syncretized with Taoism & Buddhism (Which was still considered a foreign religion at this point in Chinese history, some Han purists would even refer to the Buddha as a barbarian), this would especially be the case of ITTL south India maintains its cultural and maritime dominance over SEA.
 
I've always wanted to see some kind of "Western/Roman Confucianism" form from a mixture of Mos Maiorum, Stoicism, and the Roman Religion, and whatever else would be necessary.
 
Beyond primary sources I suppose Between Pagan and Christian by Christopher P. Jones covers the phenomena of “double faith” in late antiquity to the early medieval period pretty well.

I'll add it to my reading list. The timeline is going to be coming in July, I think. I'm sorry I haven't replied in a couple of weeks. I haven't been feeling well.

Well the bulk of the Volga Finns didn’t disappear as a distinct group until the 10th century when they were assimilated by Slavic settlers after being conquered by the Kievan Rus. If say the Volga Bolghars formed a powerful khanate that conquered the upper Volga the various Finnic groups could be integrated with the Turkic populations and continue to exist as a distinct group, so in that scenario the entire region from the lower to the upper Volga would be Turko-Finnic in character and dominated by the Bolghars and the Khazars in the 9th-10th century (this is assuming the Rus are unable to conquer the Khazars ITTL).

I'm not sure it would be the Bulgars, but perhaps another Turkic group. I like this idea, though.

Aside from sounding much weirder this is basically the approach of OTL Mahayana Buddhism, that the common sangha are unable to achieve enlightenment due to the burdens of everyday life has on their karma so they essentially get the higher priesthood to take up the cultivation of good karma for them. If you don’t favor Manichaeism even though I find it very likely, then apparently Hinduism was active in south China during the Tang period, a Hindu derived millenarian cult (likely something of the Saiva or Tantric variety) could take off and become heavily syncretized with Taoism & Buddhism (Which was still considered a foreign religion at this point in Chinese history, some Han purists would even refer to the Buddha as a barbarian), this would especially be the case of ITTL south India maintains its cultural and maritime dominance over SEA.

That's a very interesting idea, actually. A Hindu-derived millenarian cult. I'll have to look into the strains of Hinduism that were active in the region at the time.

On another note however, I've decided against the Eternal Rome idea for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, because Romance conlangs are too much fun to make. Second, and perhaps more importantly, while I have a host of qualms with Jared Diamond, I do think that he is fundamentally correct in his assertion that geography is a fundamentally driving factor in how civilizations turn out. Specifically, I think that he was correct to assert that Europe's geography fostered the development of a number of competing polities, but I'm not sure his reasoning as to why is on the mark. If I had to articulate why I think this is, I would say that it's because Europe is in the temperate zone which gives it enough seasonality to select for a more K-selected population, but the continent is arable enough to allow for a strong enough undercurrent of R-selection for fairly regular dissolution of large polities. Only 11% of China is arable, if I'm not mistaken. This lends to a considerably more K-selected population, which makes Chinese people far more group oriented and in my opinion far more likely to have a sort of "universal empire" than anyone in Europe. Other places where I see this being replicable are Egypt, Iran, the Andes, and the American West. Europe is not a good candidate here, neither is Northern India, which is an idea I have seen floated on here before. If too much land is arable, people don't have the same incentive to cooperate on such a massive scale and polities will fracture.

An idea I am interested in however is one in which the Roman Empire survives in a similar vein to the Abbasid Caliphate or even the Papacy, with Roman Emperors taking on a more religious function in which kings in the Mediterranean, where Hellenism is the primary religion, have to be approved by them. I know this kind of overrides a lot of what we were talking about before, but it allows for some interesting developments, I think as it opens up the Mediterranean outside of Italy for migration and Balkanization.

I've always wanted to see some kind of "Western/Roman Confucianism" form from a mixture of Mos Maiorum, Stoicism, and the Roman Religion, and whatever else would be necessary.

I like this idea. Something that keeps Roman civilization alive and strong in Italy especially.
 
I'm not sure it would be the Bulgars, but perhaps another Turkic group. I like this idea, though.
At least one Turkic ethnic group should convert to Judaism, like the Khazars did. Jewish steppe hordes are always fun.
An idea I am interested in however is one in which the Roman Empire survives in a similar vein to the Abbasid Caliphate or even the Papacy, with Roman Emperors taking on a more religious function in which kings in the Mediterranean, where Hellenism is the primary religion, have to be approved by them. I know this kind of overrides a lot of what we were talking about before, but it allows for some interesting developments, I think as it opens up the Mediterranean outside of Italy for migration and Balkanization.
I do like the idea of the Roman Emperor being a kind of pope for a reformed and centralized Hellenistic faith. He is the pontifex maximus after all. It could be a situation where most kingdoms in Europe and North Africa technically swear fealty to the Emperor, but in reality he has zero power, like Sengoku period Japan or late Zhou China.
That's a very interesting idea, actually. A Hindu-derived millenarian cult. I'll have to look into the strains of Hinduism that were active in the region at the time.
Big fan of this. With heavy gnostic/Manichean and Buddhist influences you could make a really interesting religion.
 
An idea I am interested in however is one in which the Roman Empire survives in a similar vein to the Abbasid Caliphate or even the Papacy, with Roman Emperors taking on a more religious function in which kings in the Mediterranean, where Hellenism is the primary religion, have to be approved by them. I know this kind of overrides a lot of what we were talking about before, but it allows for some interesting developments, I think as it opens up the Mediterranean outside of Italy for migration and Balkanization.
I don’t think it necessarily contradicts a lot of the idea of civilization development, the transmission of relics Into Europe. I think it fits quite well into it. Perhaps the second Roman Empire, the Ming dynasty analogue, is more akin to a loose confederacy claiming to be the Roman Empire that collapses in on itself. And I quite like it seeing what alt countries Can emerge out of that…pretty natural geographic spheres would emerge in Iberia, Gaul, Britain, Africa,(Tunisia), Greece + Anatolia, Egypt, Illyria/western Balkans, Syria would likely be a contested region between whatever power is in Erahn and which is in Egypt or ruled by a third power perhaps those belonging to that neo Mesopotamian religion (it would be interesting imo if we see an Arab conquest of Iran but under that alt-babylonic religion but that’s just me). In general I love seeing giant empires collapse in alternate history.
 
A very diverse Europe of
  • Three Fingers Religio Romana
  • Germanic, Slavic, Celtic and Baltic religions
  • Whatever central asian peoples migrate into * Hungary
  • Judaism
  • Christianity
  • Arab paganism*
  • Mystery cult
*practiced as Arabs served in the Roman army
 
I regret to inform everyone that I will not in fact be writing this timeline. I actually won't be writing any timelines in the future, since my primary interest is in Indo-European religion as a practicing Pagan and exploring what the world would look like had the Platonist projects that are the Abrahamic religions not risen to prominence. The simple fact of the matter is that Indo-European religion and especially Greco-Roman religion entailed things that are not allowed to be discussed openly in modern society, and the administrators of this forum would shut the timeline down before it even got off the ground, especially if I were to portray these things in a positive light. Until the rules here change, until our culture changes to allow us to discuss the traditions of our Ancestors open-mindedly instead of condemning them outright, there's really no point in exploring these rabbit holes here or anywhere else.

I'm sorry to have blue-balled everyone with the idea, and I wish you all the best!
 
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